North Wales Questions

[LNW-GW Joint]

Following on from Gareth's description above, there are some useful maps here especially this one:

I must have missed the 2009 DfT announcement to electrify the Bootle branch (Edge Hill to the docks).
If we have to wait for Liverpool FC to part-fund a passenger service on this line, as part of their new stadium plan, we might be waiting a long time...

Good articles on the tunels though.
Amazing that such massive infrastructure exists unused.

 

[Penmorfa]

Gareth, thanks for the information. My own opinion on the Borderlands Line is that I would rather open up the Halton Curve to direct services to North Wales given scarce resources. This would be a win win for North Waleians , Scousers et al. Given that there are no direct 'Crosville' type services from Birkenhead to the North Wales Coastal resorts, there are greater reasons for opening up the Halton Curve before electrifying Borderlands.

Where would the stock come from? Ccertainly not Arriva. Possibly it could be a Northern service as far as Chester, which would mean changing for North Wales. With 4 trains an hour from Chester to Liverpool I don't see the need for the Halton Curve service from a North Wales point of view. However it would be nice for some of the Chester to Liverpool Merseyrail services to be faster,

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Where would the stock come from? Ccertainly not Arriva. Possibly it could be a Northern service as far as Chester, which would mean changing for North Wales. With 4 trains an hour from Chester to Liverpool I don't see the need for the Halton Curve service from a North Wales point of view. However it would be nice for some of the Chester to Liverpool Merseyrail services to be faster,

A "direct" route to Liverpool Airport?

 

[Penmorfa]

A "direct" route to Liverpool Airport?

No, a direct route to the station with a direct bus to Liverpool Airport. Direct buses to the airport also run from central Liverpool.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

No, a direct route to the station with a direct bus to Liverpool Airport. Direct buses to the airport also run from central Liverpool.

Hence the exclamation marks!
The Halton Curve offers a "cleaner" route into Liverpool from Wales, provides a diversionary route from Liverpool to Crewe via Chester and provides a link to Liverpool Airport. The Bidston line is messy and offer no additional benefits, unlike the Halton Curve. Whilst the reopening of this line to full bi-directional use should be a no brainer, the problem with rolling stock etc is an issue.

 

[Bakers1970]

3 x VT 57s are going back to Porterbrook at the start of April - I wonder if these will be the 3 x ATW branded / blue 57s?

Have heard a rumour from an unconfirmed source that a certain Rail refurbishment company in Cardiff has the contract to refurb the Mark 3 coaches in readiness for use on both WAG's... Seems the WAG's will be around for a while yet.....?

 

[jones_bangor]

Have heard a rumour from an unconfirmed source that a certain Rail refurbishment company in Cardiff has the contract to refurb the Mark 3 coaches in readiness for use on both WAG's... Seems the WAG's will be around for a while yet.....?

Respraying of ex-WSMR / Chiltern stock to ATW colours more like!

 

[Penmorfa]

Hence the exclamation marks!
The Halton Curve offers a "cleaner" route into Liverpool from Wales, provides a diversionary route from Liverpool to Crewe via Chester and provides a link to Liverpool Airport. The Bidston line is messy and offer no additional benefits, unlike the Halton Curve. Whilst the reopening of this line to full bi-directional use should be a no brainer, the problem with rolling stock etc is an issue.

Not quite sure what you mean by a "cleaner" route? It will undoubtedly mean a change of train at Chester, into a no more than hourly service compared to 4 trains an hour on Merseyrail. It does not provide a link to Liverpool airport, it just gets you a bit closer to the airport. Name the traffic flows which are going to use this route to justify the investment.

There will be an electrified alternative route from Crewe to Liverpool, which does'nt involve a reversal, in a couple of years time.

 

[merlodlliw]

Have heard a rumour from an unconfirmed source that a certain Rail refurbishment company in Cardiff has the contract to refurb the Mark 3 coaches in readiness for use on both WAG's... Seems the WAG's will be around for a while yet.....?

When you say refurb for use on both WAGS, I understand the £3.5millions is for WAG2, so who will pay for the others, and when you say refurb, is this the cosmetics or the wiring to run with a DVT etc. Also I dont see ATW paying for any cosmetics out of there own pocket,as is the usual situation with ATW. Also why would DB outsource when they have their own in house works? out of interest
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Respraying of ex-WSMR / Chiltern stock to ATW colours more like!

you may well be correct,if this is the case, the wiring is already there, TDK would know about this,however May 14th is only eight weeks away,timings are getting tight.In my opinion now, I dont see the DVT/67 on the Wrexham run until Dec 2012, although I am told the May timetable is on hold,but this has to be written off by end of March & published in April

 

[Rhydgaled]

Respraying of ex-WSMR / Chiltern stock to ATW colours more like!

While your suggestion that Chiltern's current slam door stock would form the WAG express fleet does seem sensible, I'm pretty sure I've read on this fourm in the past that all the Chiltern (ex-WSMR) sets will be going into the power-door fitment programme. I did also read something about the WSMR silver paint having a guarantee on it, hence them only having a few stickers to Chitlern-ise them rather than reliverying to match the blue & white Chiltern-liveried DVT.

From that, my guess would be that, if ex-WSMR mark3s do make it onto the WAG express, they will still be silver and just be a temporary deployment while other mark 3s are prepared (perhaps just reliveried) esspecially for ATW. When those other mark 3s are done, the ex-WSMR stock could then head up to have power doors fitted just as was apparently planned.

Of course that's just based on what I've read on here and other websites, I have no insider knowlage.

merlodlliw, could the £3.5millions for WAG2 apply at a different time of day (ie. moving it to run at a similar time to WAG 1, but via Wrexham, and stopping WAG 1)

 

[merlodlliw]

merlodlliw, could the £3.5millions for WAG2 apply at a different time of day (ie. moving it to run at a similar time to WAG 1, but via Wrexham, and stopping WAG 1)

Yes it could, the £3.5millions was for hiring in & refurbishing one train stock for the Wrexham run only, this is what the Minister IWJ stated in his announcement.
He also said the 175 was a temporary measure only to Dec 11.

It is my guess, The WAG Express(Gerald) will be the 67/DVT via Wrexham at a new time, I do not see any further money after Dec 12 being spent on two trains, WG are fully aware the 175 timings are not satisfactory arriving in the afternoon is too late at Cardiff & departing too late in the evening. Has both trains are open access, they can be chopped & changed. Furthermore Minister Jones stated all Holyhead/Cardiff trains will run via Wrexham,Crewe was only a temporary measure, Crewe already enjoys an hourly service seven days a week to Cardiff.

Its all money now, especially with bus subsidises cut by 30%. Too many questions are being raised now. If he is still Minister Carl Sargent for next years budget will have difficulty getting any coalitionist party to agree to subsidise two WAG Expresses, when local bus services are being scrapped.
the argument "you may not get a local bus to hospital to see someone due to cuts ,but you can get two WG Premier Dinning trains to Cardiff" wont carry much support.

My opinion

Bob[/QUOTE]

 

[jones_bangor]

While your suggestion that Chiltern's current slam door stock would form the WAG express fleet does seem sensible, I'm pretty sure I've read on this fourm in the past that all the Chiltern (ex-WSMR) sets will be going into the power-door fitment programme. I did also read something about the WSMR silver paint having a guarantee on it, hence them only having a few stickers to Chitlern-ise them rather than reliverying to match the blue & white Chiltern-liveried DVT.

I'm sure ALL paint jobs carry a guarantee!

I've posted elsewhere that sending the WSMR stock for power door fitment (major structural work) won't happen.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In my opinion now, I dont see the DVT/67 on the Wrexham run until Dec 2012, although I am told the May timetable is on hold,but this has to be written off by end of March & published in April

I agree May looks far too close now.

It's a shame about the buses, but I'm afraid that a lot of these buses really are carrying fresh air (and the occasional non-fare paying pensioner) around.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I've posted elsewhere that sending the WSMR stock for power door fitment (major structural work) won't happen.

Aren't the rakes already having power doors fitted also ex-WSMR stock? As I said, what you claim sounds sensible, but is not what I've read is happening.

 

[jones_bangor]

Aren't the rakes already having power doors fitted also ex-WSMR stock? As I said, what you claim sounds sensible, but is not what I've read is happening.

Not refurbished WSMR stock.

 

[merlodlliw]

I'm sure ALL paint jobs carry a guarantee!

I've posted elsewhere that sending the WSMR stock for power door fitment (major structural work) won't happen.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I agree May looks far too close now.

It's a shame about the buses, but I'm afraid that a lot of these buses really are carrying fresh air (and the occasional non-fare paying pensioner) around.

As regards some of the buses about to be chopped, some are a lifeline, I appreciate cuts have to be made, but some of the vanity ideas like Premier Class on Gerald, also carries fresh air, I note Geralds 57 was a total failure yesterday, replaced by a 150 from Cardiff, time to get rid of 57s asap.
With two failures in a week with the 57, deep questions need to be asked.

 

[The Planner]

The WAG 2 paths are being re-timed as 67s now, so it is still a possibilty for May.

 

[merlodlliw]

The WAG 2 paths are being re-timed as 67s now, so it is still a possibilty for May.

Thanks for that, is it is the same time arrival in Cardiff late afternoon? and what about WAG1?


Bob

 

[jones_bangor]

With two failures in a week with the 57, deep questions need to be asked.

Rapidly approaching the end of their operational life I would say.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thanks for that, is it is the same time arrival in Cardiff late afternoon? and what about WAG1?

I was under the impression that WAG 1 could keep present timings with a 67 or 57.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I was under the impression that WAG 1 could keep present timings with a 67 or 57.

Maybe, but if WAG2 (via Wrexham) goes to LHCS and is retimed to run at a more sensible time (similar to WAG1) it could block WAG1's current path, and would render WAG1 obsolete anyway. That's what I hope will happen, if there are still going to be two WAG expresses between Holyhead and Cardiff the other should be southbound in the afternoon/evening (leaving Holyhead at a similar time to the present northbound WAG1).

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

As regards some of the buses about to be chopped, some are a lifeline, I appreciate cuts have to be made, but some of the vanity ideas like Premier Class on Gerald, also carries fresh air, I note Geralds 57 was a total failure yesterday, replaced by a 150 from Cardiff, time to get rid of 57s asap.
With two failures in a week with the 57, deep questions need to be asked.

I'm always intrigued by the notion of 'fresh air'. What is the optimum number of passengers in a train then? These days I tend to travel off-peak when there appears to be plenty of room (except when I've had the misfortune to travel with CrossCountry), some of the services in Wales that I'm aware of eg Conwy Valley, Cambrian Coast are never full in off-peak/off-season in my experience (not sure whether they have a 'peak' during the day!) - should they be culled? - but then we come back to the service that the railway still provides to small communities.....and as the thread mentioned buses earlier, we've just had a successful campaign to maintain the subsidy from Gwynedd for our local bus route, but it really isn't well supported during the day.

 

[merlodlliw]

Rapidly approaching the end of their operational life I would say.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I was under the impression that WAG 1 could keep present timings with a 67 or 57.

Agree the 57s are now an embarrassment on the Wag Ex so unreliable , its not that they are overworked.

It was never the intention to take the Wag Ex Premier Service via Crewe once the Wrexham link was available IWJ the then Minister announced in Welsh Govt statements. My guess is there will only be one Southbound from Dec12, or even May, but May is only weeks away. Absolute no need then to travel via Crewe which has an hourly service to Cardiff.
Time will tell. To run a Premier service arriving in Cardiff in the afternoon as the 175 now would be madness

Bob

 

[Gareth Marston]

I'm always intrigued by the notion of 'fresh air'. What is the optimum number of passengers in a train then? These days I tend to travel off-peak when there appears to be plenty of room (except when I've had the misfortune to travel with CrossCountry), some of the services in Wales that I'm aware of eg Conwy Valley, Cambrian Coast are never full in off-peak/off-season in my experience (not sure whether they have a 'peak' during the day!) - should they be culled? - but then we come back to the service that the railway still provides to small communities.....and as the thread mentioned buses earlier, we've just had a successful campaign to maintain the subsidy from Gwynedd for our local bus route, but it really isn't well supported during the day.

The reason the Cambrian Coast survived a closure hearing in the early 70's was basic geography which is unaltered to this day. The railway crosses a number of estuary's -road takes a long detour inland. Replacement bus services would have caused hardship particularly to school children who use the train to get to Secondary School at Tywyn and Harlech.

 

[table38]

Good job no-one thought of closing the railway and re-using the bridge

 

[jones_bangor]

My guess is there will only be one Southbound from Dec12, or even May, but May is only weeks away. Absolute no need then to travel via Crewe which has an hourly service to Cardiff.
Time will tell. To run a Premier service arriving in Cardiff in the afternoon as the 175 now would be madness

Until the ex-WSMR push pull stock can be (according to my theory) released by Chiltern / or refurbished mk3 stock magically appear, don't expect too much change, other than the 67s replacing the 57s.

 

[merlodlliw]

Until the ex-WSMR push pull stock can be (according to my theory) released by Chiltern / or refurbished mk3 stock magically appear, don't expect too much change, other than the 67s replacing the 57s.

Something needs to be done to get rid of the 57s after Wednesdays fiasco,I am still at a loss to understand why a sprinter was used as replacement,I appreciate panic etc by station staff , why was the 175 WAG 2 stock not mobilised & cancel is slot 6.20 which few use to Holyhead.But then Wag Ex1 is a local to Abergavenny as it replaces a DMU path so a sprinter is OK to Abergavenny,

The entire timings/routes/contingency need sorting.

As for your theory, I dont see any change until Dec 12, I can not believe the DVT/67 will go via Wrexham until then, it would be complete farce to run it at similar timings as now,and it should run on Saturdays, but that's another question on funding.


Bob

 

[Welshman]

I am still at a loss to understand why a sprinter was used as replacement,I appreciate panic etc by station staff , why was the 175 WAG 2 stock not mobilised & cancel is slot 6.20 which few use to Holyhead.


Bob

I suspect their Passenger Charter has something to do with that. For delays of an hour or more, they pledge to compensate passengers with return tickets by 50% and singles by 100%.

But cram them into totally unsuitable stock, such as a Cl.150, and no compensation is payable, except to those with 1st Class tickets.

 

[merlodlliw]

I suspect their Passenger Charter has something to do with that. For delays of an hour or more, they pledge to compensate passengers with return tickets by 50% and singles by 100%.

But cram them into totally unsuitable stock, such as a Cl.150, and no compensation is payable, except to those with 1st Class tickets.

What about the handful or less on board with 1st tickets, I presume they will get some refund.

 

[Welshman]

To be fair to you, I added the last phrase of my final sentence as an afterthought, so you wouldn't have seen it when you posted.

But I still suspect compensating the handful of 1st Class passengers on WAG 1 will be less than compensating everyone intent on travelling for all or part of the journey on WAG 2.

 

[merlodlliw]

To be fair to you, I added the last phrase of my final sentence as an afterthought, so you wouldn't have seen it when you posted.

But I still suspect compensating the handful of 1st Class passengers on WAG 1 will be less than compensating everyone intent on travelling for all or part of the journey on WAG 2.

Thanks, and now for something completely different, from today's local paper

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/nor...er-warned-of-service-shake-up-55578-30493193/

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

The reason the Cambrian Coast survived a closure hearing in the early 70's was basic geography which is unaltered to this day. The railway crosses a number of estuary's -road takes a long detour inland. Replacement bus services would have caused hardship particularly to school children who use the train to get to Secondary School at Tywyn and Harlech.

Oh, Absolutely, don't get me wrong, I certainly wasn't suggesting that it should have closed (the 1970's was the period when I used the line frequently going to Aber, and I remember talking to staff who told me how BR manipulated the passenger figures to support closure)...but of course, as we know other 'loss-making' lines were closed or downgraded, replacement bus services were subsequently withdrawn or reduced and this caused hardship to communities also...in the end it does become a matter of how much of a subsidy we are willing to pay, doesn't it?