North Wales Questions

[jones_bangor]

The rest of the time the Borderlands services seem to turn around in 3 minutes at both ends during the day, which is quite tight. With any line speed improvements I'd imagine the planners would first of all be looking to increase that to something less tight. To extend to Birkenhead North would require another 3 minutes to get there, but also another x minutes timetabled to allow the train to reverse. Although there are three platforms at Birkenhead North, I understand the track layout isn't currently set up in a manner conducive to turning trains easily? This makes the manoeuvre both expensive in terms of time but also very risky in terms of potential delay minutes.

Looking at all that from where I am, if I were ATW I would want at least 10-15 minutes in journey time improvements, together with a shed load of cash (particularly given the extra conflict and therefore quite probably future compensation that goes with the electric services) before I would even consider extending to Birkenhead North. With that kind of time improvement, you could be looking at running a 45 minute frequency instead. Are there any important and well used clock face connections at Shotton or Wrexham G that make this undesirable as an option?

I agree with a lot of what your saying. I said in an earlier post that this service is notoriously unreliable in terms of timings. To increase patronage, you really need to gain the trust of customers and provide a service they can rely on, otherwise it will be the car or bus next time round.

 

[tbtc]

Are there any important and well used clock face connections at Shotton or Wrexham G that make this undesirable as an option?

There's a (roughly) hourly service from Holyhead to Shrewsbury (and bi-hourly to Birmingham *or* Cardiff) which is roughly xx.35 southbound through Wrexham General and xx.02 northbound.

The Bidston services currently head south at xx.27 (eight minutes before the southbound service on the "main line", which allows a reasonable connection) and north at xx.32 (which means a half hour wait for anyone heading north - less ideal!).

An increased frequency on the Bidston - Wrexham service would make this a bit more hit and miss.

Dunno about Shotton times though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

To increase patronage, you really need to gain the trust of customers and provide a service they can rely on, otherwise it will be the car or bus next time round.

You mean passengers?

And a direct link into Liverpool would be the other big improvement to attract people - especially as they don't have to change if they drive/ take the bus

 

[The Informer]

I've still heard the 40 minute service as an active plan for the Decemeber timetable recast.

158s can't be used unless they do some work to the platforms.

One of the main reasons the linespeed is 40 its because some of the stations are literally yards apart! There would be no time to gain between WXM and PENYFFORDD or BUCKLEY. The severe gradient down to SHOTTON is also another factor. The whole line is a complete timetable headache. The only way to drastically cut times is by missing out some stops, but that will cause uproar!

 

[Penmorfa]

One of the main reasons the linespeed is 40 its because some of the stations are literally yards apart! There would be no time to gain between WXM and PENYFFORDD or BUCKLEY. The severe gradient down to SHOTTON is also another factor. The whole line is a complete timetable headache. The only way to drastically cut times is by missing out some stops, but that will cause uproar!

No, the linespeed is based on the condition of the track. Much of which is still bullhead, this track has had thirty years of pounding on the Welsh side since Summers closed. Any time saved by linespeed improvements would be best used to increase the robustness of the timetable.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I'm not sure 158s are suitable for a route with many stations - IMO the doors are too slow and will increase dwell times.

Try the Cambrian Coast! 158's only forever more thanks to ertms.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think this is a snowballed rumour.

However, it does illustrate the point that to improve this line, increasing the linespeed to 75mph where possible, would be the way forward.

If the line were realigned, could it not become suitable for 158 units as well? (e.g. swap the 150s for 158s currently used in and around Cardiff), and form a Shrewsbury to Birkenhead?

158's released from Maasteg- Cheltendham once on loan 150's came back from FGW were what ATW were hoping to run their Aberystwyth to Marylebone services from or more sensibly the much talked about Cambrian hourly - first announced in Dec 99 and still waiting. At moment with 158 refurb and 175 shortage due to WAG 2 and Whitland crash there not spare.

 

[pablo]

Haven't been that way for a while but I think a short headshunt was put in on the removed triangle chord for Borderlands units to hide while the WK trains passed through Bidston stn.

I saw a 158 change proposal on NR's website a few years ago but the stopper was NR's requirement for ATW to pay for a clearance survey, I guess.

 

[The Informer]

No, the linespeed is based on the condition of the track. Much of which is still bullhead, this track has had thirty years of pounding on the Welsh side since Summers closed. Any time saved by linespeed improvements would be best used to increase the robustness of the timetable.

Maybe I came across wrong. What I meant is by the time the train accelerates to anywhere near 40mph its braking again for the next stop.

 

[tbtc]

by the time the train accelerates to anywhere near 40mph its braking again for the next stop

...which is why an EMU would be a big improvement (in terms of acceleration) and a 158 would be a step backwards.

 

[Penmorfa]

Maybe I came across wrong. What I meant is by the time the train accelerates to anywhere near 40mph its braking again for the next stop.

very true on the Welsh side, from Shotton to Bidston there's plenty of scope for higher speeds

 

[Rhydgaled]

Try the Cambrian Coast! 158's only forever more thanks to ertms.

What would you rather have? While the Cambrian coast line does have rather a lot of closely-spaced stops (making it poor teritory for a 158 in that regard) I think it is probablly too long a journey for a 150 to be suitable.

Certainly once you get to Machynlleth, the Cambrian main line (all the way from Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth) is definatly class 158 teritory. Given the line is not electrified there isn't really anything else that would be suitable. If the Cambrian main line had to be restricted to a single class, the only class that would have been a better choice than 158s would, in my opinion, have been 159s (same thing really, just with an extra coach and some extra horsepower).

The Cambrian coast might be better off with air-conditioned class 156s (I assume their sliding doors, since they look similar to the ones on a 150, operate quickly (but are in the right place for passengers doing the full long treck unlike the suburban 1/3, 2/3 door layout on 150s)), however their 75mph top speed would mean they couldn't keep current timings if they continued to extend to Shrewsbury/Birmingham. That means passengers from the coast would have to change onto the mainline's 158/159 at Machynlleth/Dovey Junction. Therefore using 158s for both Cambrian lines is probablly a good thing.

158's released from Maasteg- Cheltendham once on loan 150's came back from FGW were what ATW were hoping to run their Aberystwyth to Marylebone services from or more sensibly the much talked about Cambrian hourly - first announced in Dec 99 and still waiting. At moment with 158 refurb and 175 shortage due to WAG 2 and Whitland crash there not spare.

Four 150s returned from First Great Western, one supposedly enabling the extra Fishguard services and two covering the lost 175s. I think that still leaves ATW with a 150 surplus of at least 1.

That single surplus 150, plus the one covering for 175002 when that is repaired, could be used to free two 158s from Maesteg to go towards providing the hourly Shrewsbury - Aberystwyth service.

Personally, I think both the current WAG expresses should be retired, replaced by a 67+DVT running a 15:45-ish Swansea - Holyhead service (via Wrexham) (along with a morning Holyhead - Swansea trip (also via Wrexham)). The 175 that releases from WAG 2 would then get back another surplus 150 to take a third 158 off Maesteg to put on the Fishguard boat train, which releases the 150 from the boat train from 10:50-ish onwards.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Can someone say what is the current stated official position with regard to electrification of the Borderlands Line.

 

[johnnychips]

Can someone say what is the current stated official position with regard to electrification of the Borderlands Line.

From 'Rail' 687:

As part of interview with Mark Langman, NR's Route Director for Wales:

'With half the line being in Wales, the plan had [my emphasis] been for the cost to be split with the Welsh Government. So with the grand electrification plans being shelved indefinitely...'

He's happy to have introduced a 150 to replace a 153.

 

[merlodlliw]

Personally, I think both the current WAG expresses should be retired, replaced by a 67+DVT running a 15:45-ish Swansea - Holyhead service (via Wrexham) (along with a morning Holyhead - Swansea trip (also via Wrexham)). The 175 that releases from WAG 2 would then get back another surplus 150 to take a third 158 off Maesteg to put on the Fishguard boat train, which releases the 150 from the boat train from 10:50-ish onwards.[/QUOTE]Rhydgaled

I would agree with that line of thought, but as the WAG Exs are dummy Open Access, would WG fork out more money for this, they wont become franchise trains as ATW would refuse to fund them as they have a no growth contract.
WAG2 DVT/67. WG has paid ATW £3.5 millions to get stock for this run & are currently paying ATW £100K a month for the 175 hire.
As for Gerald last year he cost WG £2.2millions, so even with a 67 etc in place of the 57, its no less this year.
So I agree send them to Swansea,with a buffet, anything is better than leaving them in Canton for 6 hours apiece conveying no one.
we shall see,but I wont hold my breath

 

[Squaddie]

As for Gerald last year he cost WG £2.2millions...

We know, Bob: you post that figure in every thread, whether relevant or not.

And, in fact, you've already posted it twice in this very thread, once in post #82

Gerald got £2.2 millions last year...

and again in post #124

WAG1 Gerald cost WG £2.2M...

 

[Gareth Marston]

Funny how BR had 105 minute schedules from Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury and used mixed up 150/153/156/158 diagrams now to maintain 115 minute schedules it has to be 158's only!

156's are probably best stock for Cambrian Coast, you really only need the through trains to West Midlands at certain times of the year/ weekends. One of the biggest bugbears is that the 4 coach formations don't go all the way to Aberystwyth just as far as Machynlleth.

Traveled from Gobowen to Liverpool yesterday via Chester. Caught 0943 (0720 ex CDF) 3 car 175 the conductor was so busy issuing tickets he was slow opening doors at all stations definitely passengers got off at Wrexham and Chester that had not been given opportunity to purchase tickets.

Merseyrail was busy the 3 car 507/508's I used 1031 ex Chester and 1758 ex Liverpool Lime St were both full with standing. As far as Hooton its 6 tph from Liverpool. When Merseyrail first proposed electrifying the Borderlands line to 2 tph they expected a 5 fold increase in patronage- I can see why.

Caught 1928 off Chester for Shrewsbury- 2 car 158 90% full - absolutely no attempt at revenue protection or customer service from conductor.

 

[Rhydgaled]

WAG2 DVT/67. WG has paid ATW £3.5 millions to get stock for this run.

Then, apart from the Swansea extension and retiming the via Wrexham express to run at a similar time to the current WAG1, it is already paid for.

Forgot to mention that ideally I'd have the rake from the morning southbound express go onto one of the franchised Manchester services from Swansea and then stick on that diagram for most of the rest of the day, with a second 67+DVT set coming off a franchised Manchester diagram at Swansea to form the evening northbound express. I also think there should be a late afternoon / early evening 67+DVT express service starting from Holyhead, to Cardiff/Swansea, also via Wrexham (until the time it is due to leave Holyhead, I'd have that set working franchised services too). Unfortunatly though that probably needs three sets, and we only seem to be getting two (not counting the necessary spare set).

 

[merlodlliw]

Then, apart from the Swansea extension and retiming the via Wrexham express to run at a similar time to the current WAG1, it is already paid for.

Forgot to mention that ideally I'd have the rake from the morning southbound express go onto one of the franchised Manchester services from Swansea and then stick on that diagram for most of the rest of the day, with a second 67+DVT set coming off a franchised Manchester diagram at Swansea to form the evening northbound express. I also think there should be a late afternoon / early evening 67+DVT express service starting from Holyhead, to Cardiff/Swansea, also via Wrexham (until the time it is due to leave Holyhead, I'd have that set working franchised services too). Unfortunatly though that probably needs three sets, and we only seem to be getting two (not counting the necessary spare set).

Indeed WAG2 DVT/67 , is paid for, however until it starts its costing £100K a month to hire in the 175.

The problem is, these two services WAG1&2, can not be used on franchise services due to application by ATW to run them as open access only.
Thus meaning, they could be withdrawn at any time.

As ATW lives off the no growth contract it signed, I see no possibility of ATW taking over any of its franchised services with hired in loco stock, ATW have stated unless its paid for they wont run.

The whole episode of WAGs 1&2 needs sorting out, they only run 12 hours out of 24 Mon to Friday, such a waste of stock lying idle,when other services are jam packed.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Indeed WAG2 DVT/67 , is paid for, however until it starts its costing £100K a month to hire in the 175.

Have you confirmed that WAG have been forced to pay £100k per month (on top of the £3.5m for 67s) for the WAG2 175 since December (when the 67s were meant to start if I remember rightly) then?

If so, ATW should be made to refund some of the £3.5m since they did not provide the 67s which is what the £3.5m was for, WAG shouldn't have to pay twice since they are only getting one WAG2.

The problem is, these two services WAG1&2, can not be used on franchise services due to application by ATW to run them as open access only. Thus meaning, they could be withdrawn at any time.

Sorry, I don't understand. Yes the expresses could be withdrawn at any time (because of open access), but what's to stop the stock being used on franchised services as well as the open access ones?

ATW also lie on their website that they use all rolling stock available to them when there is a major event in Cardiff. The stored mark 2s MUST be available to them since they OWN them, yet are never used.

The whole episode of WAGs 1&2 needs sorting out, they only run 12 hours out of 24 Mon to Friday, such a waste of stock lying idle,when other services are jam packed.

Forgot to say that I think the expresses (at least the evening northbound from Swansea and probably the evening southbound too) should run weekends too. They really should put all their available LHCS into service to relive some of the overcrowding, even if it is only run on busy days (such as special events across Wales, and not just in Cardiff).

 

[merlodlliw]

Have you confirmed that WAG have been forced to pay £100k per month (on top of the £3.5m for 67s) for the WAG2 175 since December (when the 67s were meant to start if I remember rightly) then?

If so, ATW should be made to refund some of the £3.5m since they did not provide the 67s which is what the £3.5m was for, WAG shouldn't have to pay twice since they are only getting one WAG2.

Sorry, I don't understand. Yes the expresses could be withdrawn at any time (because of open access), but what's to stop the stock being used on franchised services as well as the open access ones?

ATW also lie on their website that they use all rolling stock available to them when there is a major event in Cardiff. The stored mark 2s MUST be available to them since they OWN them, yet are never used.

Forgot to say that I think the expresses (at least the evening northbound from Swansea and probably the evening southbound too) should run weekends too. They really should put all their available LHCS into service to relive some of the overcrowding, even if it is only run on busy days (such as special events across Wales, and not just in Cardiff).

I have through A.Ms of three parties ,except Labour found out that due to the delay in the revamped transport plan,ATW were to pull the plug in December of both Gerald & the 175 unless funding was found,it was left to the last possible minute, due to pressure from National Rail,who had already given dispensation to WG & ATW for lateness due to the delay of the National Transport plan plan, I am also told by reliable sources, that the 175 gets £5k subsidy a day (20 days £100K) and the hire of the class 57 plus stock is also being met in full by WG, last year WAG1 cost WG £2.2 millions

As for the Open Access Wags been used as franchise stock,

A new application would have to be made to ORR by ATW and ATW would say no unless WG totally funded the stock.
The chaos of awarding a no growth 15 year contract means ATW wont spend a penny.
The ORR only awarded the paths on the condition, Gerald on the down called at all stations to Abergavenny, and WAG2 on the up called at all stations Chester to Shrewsbury via Wrexham, as the paths were used by franchise stock and the stations must be be served.

 

[Gareth]

Though out of interest, why were the diesel City Line local services out of Lime Street and the Borderlands Line never incorporated into the Merseyrail franchise? I suppose it gives ME a specialism in electric services and avoids blemishing its statistics. Though I find it strange to remember back to the days now when the line was operated by First North Western!

I think the incorporation of the Borderlands Line into Merseyrail hasn't happened because of reasons already stated by folk on here... length and rural nature of the line, doesn't follow a very straight trajectory for Birkenhead and central Liverpool, several different local parties need to agree ie Merseytravel, Cheshire West, Taith authorities, as well as the DfT and the Welsh Assembly. Also the potential patronage of the line and the freqency would need to be justifiable for electrification and the other works required.

The 'City Line' was proposed to be, at least partially, encorporated into Merseyrail, although the plans were dropped as long ago as the early 80s. The idea was that Chat Moss stoppers would come in as far as Edge Hill, then go into the disused Wapping Tunnel. This tunnel has a portal at the other end near Kings Dock, however, the idea was that a junction was to be built and these trains would then come into Central Low Level and perhaps onwards to Southport and the likes. The plan was slightly revised, as the city council, or perhaps the county council which existed at the time, want the university area to be served and so the scheme was revised so that the trains would go into the Waterloo Tunnel instead, which heads to the northward part of the city centre. Half way through, a junction and a new stretch of tunnel would be built which would go under the university area, serving a new underground station and then it would carry on until it joined the Wapping Tunnel and on through to Central Low Level as originally planned. The now abandoned outer loop line, which goes around the edge of the city (and is now a cycle path) was also to be incorporated. It was to be split in half at Broad Green and then fed into a new underground station there. Cost was the primary reason this never happened. What was never clear with the scheme was how far along the Chat Moss and Wigan lines these, presumably third rail, trains would go. Merseytravel advertised the line as a link to St Helens and Newton-le-Willows. The WCML spur and the CLC line were not a part of this proposal and stopper services were to still terminated at Lime Street.

 

[ivanhoe]

Gareth, thanks for the information. My own opinion on the Borderlands Line is that I would rather open up the Halton Curve to direct services to North Wales given scarce resources. This would be a win win for North Waleians , Scousers et al. Given that there are no direct 'Crosville' type services from Birkenhead to the North Wales Coastal resorts, there are greater reasons for opening up the Halton Curve before electrifying Borderlands.

 

[merlodlliw]

Anyone know why Gerald is 49 down at Shrewsbury this evening,38 late leaving Cardiff. More 57 problems?
http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/ldbdetails/AM6ik90OgdmJeMJnqYdH#g==

Bob

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The log at 0600 tomorrow may elaborate , but there were issues Cwmbran to Abergavenny earlier on.

 

[jones_bangor]

Anyone know why Gerald is 49 down at Shrewsbury this evening,38 late leaving Cardiff. More 57 problems?
http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/ldbdetails/AM6ik90OgdmJeMJnqYdH#g==

3 x VT 57s are going back to Porterbrook at the start of April - I wonder if these will be the 3 x ATW branded / blue 57s?

 

[SprinterMan]

3 x VT 57s are going back to Porterbrook at the start of April - I wonder if these will be the 3 x ATW branded / blue 57s?

Aren't there 4 blue 57s?

 

[merlodlliw]

So anyone found out why Gerald was so late yesterday(Mon) on the down,

and what Charlie Hume has for us this week, in his excellent http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm

 

[krus_aragon]

So anyone found out why Gerald was so late yesterday(Mon) on the down,

and what Charlie Hume has for us this week, in his excellent http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm

I was heading southbound from Hereford yesterday afternoon (~4pm) and a member of platform staff explained that a northbound freight train had damaged the rails at some point south of Hereford. The Manchester service was announced as delayed shortly before I boarded my Carmarthen service. I expect Gerallt was stuck in the queue.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I was heading southbound from Hereford yesterday afternoon (~4pm) and a member of platform staff explained that a northbound freight train had damaged the rails at some point south of Hereford. The Manchester service was announced as delayed shortly before I boarded my Carmarthen service. I expect Gerallt was stuck in the queue.

Without giving too much away - an operating matter near Panteg Loop which resulted in various checks.

 

[merlodlliw]

Thanks both.

Bob

 

[table38]

The 'City Line' was proposed to be, at least partially, encorporated into Merseyrail, although the plans were dropped as long ago as the early 80s. The idea was that Chat Moss stoppers would come in as far as Edge Hill, then go into the disused Wapping Tunnel. This tunnel has a portal at the other end near Kings Dock, however, the idea was that a junction was to be built and these trains would then come into Central Low Level and perhaps onwards to Southport and the likes. The plan was slightly revised, as the city council, or perhaps the county council which existed at the time, want the university area to be served and so the scheme was revised so that the trains would go into the Waterloo Tunnel instead, which heads to the northward part of the city centre. Half way through, a junction and a new stretch of tunnel would be built which would go under the university area, serving a new underground station and then it would carry on until it joined the Wapping Tunnel and on through to Central Low Level as originally planned. The now abandoned outer loop line, which goes around the edge of the city (and is now a cycle path) was also to be incorporated. It was to be split in half at Broad Green and then fed into a new underground station there. Cost was the primary reason this never happened. What was never clear with the scheme was how far along the Chat Moss and Wigan lines these, presumably third rail, trains would go. Merseytravel advertised the line as a link to St Helens and Newton-le-Willows. The WCML spur and the CLC line were not a part of this proposal and stopper services were to still terminated at Lime Street.

Following on from Gareth's description above, there are some useful maps here especially this one:

Also for some reason I seem to have acquired this map for which I have no source: