North Wales Questions

[jones_bangor]

...meaning that some places on Anglesey will have a better public transport service to Cardiff than they do to other parts of the island?

Really? And why focus on Cardiff? You could equally say Chester, London, Manchester.....

Oh sorry, I forgot, nobody wants to go Cardiff....according to you.....

 

[tbtc]

Really? And why focus on Cardiff? You could equally say Chester, London, Manchester.....

Oh sorry, I forgot, nobody wants to go Cardiff....according to you.....

Anglesey has a service to Manchester? I thought they didn't go beyond Llandudno?

And the reason for mentioning Cardiff is that we both know that politicians are spending money on additional Cardiff train services at the same time that they are having to cut local bus services.

Do the flights still run?

 

[jones_bangor]

Anglesey has a service to Manchester? I thought they didn't go beyond Llandudno?

And the reason for mentioning Cardiff is that we both know that politicians are spending money on additional Cardiff train services at the same time that they are having to cut local bus services.

Unfortunately, there is only one direct train on a Sunday from Holyhead to Manchester.

So you're in favour of cutting train services over unviable bus services...a la Beeching?

 

[merlodlliw]

The line is now mostly a cycle track, but it has been badly encroached at Sealand (for the widened A494), and the levels at Chester are all wrong, even though the CLC route runs virtually over the throat of the Alstom class 175 depot.

The business case for electrification depends first on getting electrics running south of Bidston to Woodchurch and then perhaps to Heswall or Neston.
Wales & Borders would then run on the truncated section south to Wrexham.
But Merseytravel can't even get the Wirrral case approved, so in my view electrification of the whole line is fantasy.
I sometimes use the line to reach Liverpool, but it's faster and cheaper to drive to Hooton and get the 6tph from there.

Have you seen the passenger numbers from the Borderlands stations?

2009/10 ORR footfall (000, both directions):
Wrexham Central 43
Gwersyllt 32
Cefn-y-Bedd 8
Caergwrle 23
Hope 22
Penyffordd 19 (some of these are me!)
Buckley 48
Hawarden 36
Shotton 201 (HL+LL)
Hawarden Bridge 7
Neston 36
Heswall 45
Upton 21
There are 28 Borderlands trains a day (12 on Sundays).
Dividing the above numbers by 10 gives you a rough passengers-per-train boarding/leaving at each station.
As you can see, they are penny numbers.

Meanwhile, on the big railway:
Wrexham Gen 584
Chester 2990 (largest ATW station footfall other than Cardiff Cen 10742)
Hooton 527

Some others for comparison:
Flint 234
Prestatyn 333
Rhyl 583
Abergele 71
Colwyn Bay 275
Llandudno Jn 313 (Llandudno itself 286)
Bangor 591
Holyhead 185
Ruabon 71
Chirk 56
Gobowen 193
Shrewsbury 1630

Interesting figures for the big towns 2 town centre stations 627K.
On Sundays on the Borderlands, the first two & last train(6) is paid for by Wrexham CBC , the franchise requirement is only for 6 services.
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Anglesey has a service to Manchester? I thought they didn't go beyond Llandudno?

And the reason for mentioning Cardiff is that we both know that politicians are spending money on additional Cardiff train services at the same time that they are having to cut local bus services.

Do the flights still run?

Whats more interesting is, Anglesey County Council is being run By WG, even more interesting the Commissioners brought in come under Carl Sargents portfolio also Minister responsible for transport in Wales. An own goal comes to mind. (see reference Gareth Marston 118 Anglesey bus service cuts)

Yes the flights still run, Plus WAG1 Gerald,This year WAG2 the 175 is costing WG £100K a month to hire the two coach 175 in from its own franchise.ATW are laughing all the way to the bank. I will be interested in the cost Of WAG1 Gerald this year,already the hire in Charges of the 57 are enormous,a dam site more than the 175, a few deep questions are already being asked.

Last year WAGAIR cost WG £1.2M plus landing fees at Valley another £400K......£1.6 millions
WAG1 Gerald cost WG £2.2M (up from £1.7M in year one)
WAG2 cost WG £625K (May to Dec)

Loss of bus subsidy to CCs by WG to run vital services on Sundays & evening etc £3millions or 30% cut.

My opinion of course at a time when fuel prices are crippling real people,

 

[jones_bangor]

Last year WAGAIR cost WG £1.2M plus landing fees at Valley another £400K......£1.6 millions
WAG1 Gerald cost WG £2.2M (up from £1.7M in year one)
WAG2 cost WG £625K (May to Dec)

I've suggested elsewhere that WAGAIR is being kept going to maintain Cardiff IA as a going concern for scheduled flights, otherwise a future of charter flights only beckons.

It's a shame WG never sorted out a proper rail link to CIA, instead of the train come bus compromise, would have helped passenger numbers I'm sure.

A few hundred meters of track straight in to the site.

 

[merlodlliw]

I've suggested elsewhere that WAGAIR is being kept going to maintain Cardiff IA as a going concern for scheduled flights, otherwise a future of charter flights only beckons.

It's a shame WG never sorted out a proper rail link to CIA, instead of the train come bus compromise, would have helped passenger numbers I'm sure.

A few hundred meters of track straight in to the site.

you may be correct in what you say about WAGAIR, I only hear less Airlines use Cardiff, All people getting a flight abroad from North Wales, Use Manchester or Liverpool, Im sure there is more to it than rail/bus with less people & airlines using Cardiff Airport, Bristol now seems the key Airport for Sth Wales.I like everyone I speak too, including Labour & Plaid colleagues think WAGAIR was IWJ worst promotion, it should have been ended when the first airline went bust,I think the proposed Anglesey bus cuts will take a lot of explaining from the Anglesey Plaid A.M. when he spent taxpayers money like water on fantasy in a quid pro que with Labour when he was Minister.
Two WG open access trains to Cardiff, Airline to Cardiff all paid for by taxpaying residents, local bus to hospital,. sorry its been cut due to lack of funding. And yes it was a Plaid Labour joint coalitionist Govt who sanctioned them, but Minister IWJ signed them off, no wonder he is yesterdays man.

How I see it & my own opinion

 

[pablo]

Bob,
I know you think WAGAIR is a guilded coach for the priviledged.
Have you ever seen the D of Westminster's set-up at Hawarden? I'll bet it costs the Grosvenor Estate/taxpayer a lot more than WAGAIR. It's all around us. hock:

 

[tbtc]

So you're in favour of cutting train services over unviable bus services...a la Beeching?

I'm in favour of transport spending focussing on everyday journeys, rather than political vanity.

But then I'm not a politician...

 

[merlodlliw]

Bob,
I know you think WAGAIR is a guilded coach for the priviledged.
Have you ever seen the D of Westminster's set-up at Hawarden? I'll bet it costs the Grosvenor Estate/taxpayer a lot more than WAGAIR. It's all around us. hock:

I was not aware any taxpayers money goes to support his Grace,A lot of private individuals have there own aircraft & facilities,Pop stars,footballers etc But WAGAIR is totally funded by the taxpayer, the yearly cost is £1.6millions.
I wonder how many jobs it as brought into Anglesey.I do not class it as a guilded coach for the privileged,more a jolly for politicians and staff.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I find the footfall for Wrexham Central oddly low and remember some of the Generals footfall are folk using the Platform 4!

 

[merlodlliw]

I find the footfall for Wrexham Central oddly low and remember some of the Generals footfall are folk using the Platform 4![/QUOTE Gareth.

Valid point Gareth, it does look low,I would also question Gwersyllt 32 compared to say Caergwrle 23, I also can not believe Buckley 48 is Busier than Wrexham Central,
I do think I sense a flaw in NRs figures

 

[emoaconr]

The line is now mostly a cycle track, but it has been badly encroached at Sealand (for the widened A494), and the levels at Chester are all wrong, even though the CLC route runs virtually over the throat of the Alstom class 175 depot.

The business case for electrification depends first on getting electrics running south of Bidston to Woodchurch and then perhaps to Heswall or Neston.
Wales & Borders would then run on the truncated section south to Wrexham.
But Merseytravel can't even get the Wirrral case approved, so in my view electrification of the whole line is fantasy.
I sometimes use the line to reach Liverpool, but it's faster and cheaper to drive to Hooton and get the 6tph from there.

Have you seen the passenger numbers from the Borderlands stations?

2009/10 ORR footfall (000, both directions):
Wrexham Central 43
Gwersyllt 32
Cefn-y-Bedd 8
Caergwrle 23
Hope 22
Penyffordd 19 (some of these are me!)
Buckley 48
Hawarden 36
Shotton 201 (HL+LL)
Hawarden Bridge 7
Neston 36
Heswall 45
Upton 21
There are 28 Borderlands trains a day (12 on Sundays).
Dividing the above numbers by 10 gives you a rough passengers-per-train boarding/leaving at each station.
As you can see, they are penny numbers.

I am sure you understand due to the nature of the line, that those figures are grossly inaccurate.
I use this line on a daily basis for a number of years and I can safely say an alarming proportion of fares do not get charged (mostly unintentional).

The Wrexham Central figure is also completely irrelevant, as tickets are always made to/from Wrexham General if bought on-board by the guard. The only way a Wrexham Central ticket can be purchased is by buying a ticket from the machine outward from Wrexham Central itself. Ideally we need to scrap the General/Central ticketing distinction and replace it with "Wrexham Stns" because the Central figure is absolutely and completely wrong; just see the platform here at rush-hour and you'd understand. Both NR and ATW realise the actual usage of this station.

I can safely say that most of these stations in the Welsh part of the line should have at least a third more actual usage than its statistics as recorded by NR. I live in Gwersyllt and the level of unintentional fare evasion is huge between here and Wrexham (with both stations without ticket barriers) - there just isn't enough time between stations and/or guards cannot be bothered to check and sell.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I find the footfall for Wrexham Central oddly low and remember some of the Generals footfall are folk using the Platform 4![/QUOTE Gareth.

Valid point Gareth, it does look low,I would also question Gwersyllt 32 compared to say Caergwrle 23, I also can not believe Buckley 48 is Busier than Wrexham Central,
I do think I sense a flaw in NRs figures

It comes from Lennon Ticket Sales - are staff just issuing "Wrexham" and there getting lumped into General?

 

[merlodlliw]

I am sure you understand due to the nature of the line, that those figures are grossly inaccurate.
I use this line on a daily basis for a number of years and I can safely say an alarming proportion of fares do not get charged (mostly unintentional).

The Wrexham Central figure is also completely irrelevant, as tickets are always made to/from Wrexham General if bought on-board by the guard. The only way a Wrexham Central ticket can be purchased is by buying a ticket from the machine outward from Wrexham Central itself. Ideally we need to scrap the General/Central ticketing distinction and replace it with "Wrexham Stns" because the Central figure is absolutely and completely wrong; just see the platform here at rush-hour and you'd understand. Both NR and ATW realise the actual usage of this station.

I can safely say that most of these stations in the Welsh part of the line should have at least a third more actual usage than its statistics as recorded by NR. I live in Gwersyllt and the level of unintentional fare evasion is huge between here and Wrexham (with both stations without ticket barriers) - there just isn't enough time between stations and/or guards cannot be bothered to check and sell.

Take your point about Gwersyllt, next stop Wrexham General in five mins.
I agree about Wrexham Central, fudged figures.

 

[emoaconr]

Take your point about Gwersyllt, next stop Wrexham General in five mins.
I agree about Wrexham Central, fudged figures.

Its simply because of the fact that the guards will never sell you a Wrexham Central ticket - even if you ask for one.

Its always General - which I suspect is something to do with fudging General's figures too.

There should ideally be a "Wrexham Stns" group like there used to be.

 

[D1009]

Weren't those ORR figures rubbished in one of the railway magazines when they came out ? I'm a bit surprised Buckley and Caergwrle are higher than Heswall and Upton.

 

[emoaconr]

Weren't those ORR figures rubbished in one of the railway magazines when they came out ? I'm a bit surprised Buckley and Caergwrle are higher than Heswall and Upton.

I'd definately say that Buckley is one of the more well used stations on the line... definately a lot more than Upton. But again with Upton its fare collection - guards get barely any time to collect fares between Upton and Bidston so this is a bletch on their statistics.

I would say that Gwersyllt and Ruabon have a fairly similar actual patronage - I travel from both stations on a regular basis and I'd completely disagree that Gwersyllt is quieter than Ruabon - I'd often say its the other way around, however its all about tickets sold, and barely any are actually paid for between GWE and WRX.

 

[D1009]

From what you say there is obviously a commuter/shopping flow from the Welsh stations into Wrexham, but I find it a little surprising that it apparently exceeds the flow from mid-Wirral into Birkenhead and Liverpool. I suppose the change at Bidston and the convenience of the M53 puts people off.

 

[emoaconr]

From what you say there is obviously a commuter/shopping flow from the Welsh stations into Wrexham, but I find it a little surprising that it apparently exceeds the flow from mid-Wirral into Birkenhead and Liverpool. I suppose the change at Bidston and the convenience of the M53 puts people off.

I daresay there is a similar flow north of Shotton also. I regulary go to Liverpool using this route, but I can say the two quietest stations (besides Hawarden Bridge which is a request stop) are Upton and Cefn-y-Bedd consistently.

Its more likely that the Merseytravel-controlled more frequent buses are more convenient than the hourly ATW service. There is no reason however why the service cannot terminate in Birkenhead North other than the fact ATW don't want to add another unit working on the line. At Bidston trains to Liverpool are at 15 minute intervals to Liverpool Central, but there are far better connection times (to both Liverpool and New Brighton!) to be had at Birkenhead North - which is less than a mile up the track with a third platform designed for use with Borderlands Line trains in mind!

 

[Penmorfa]

From what you say there is obviously a commuter/shopping flow from the Welsh stations into Wrexham, but I find it a little surprising that it apparently exceeds the flow from mid-Wirral into Birkenhead and Liverpool. I suppose the change at Bidston and the convenience of the M53 puts people off.

There are through buses via the Mersey road tunnel to Liverpool from Neston, Heswall and Upton which are more direct and a better frequency

 

[D1009]

So i expect that's the main reason they can't make a case for electrification.

 

[Gareth Marston]

So i expect that's the main reason they can't make a case for electrification.

For an Urban fringe area within a city region hrly and a change is a joke. The local rail user group website has good modern history of the route and how it was progressively downgraded throughout the 70's-90's. The main culprit was the Conservatives brief tenure in charge of Merseytravel in the late 70's according to them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/c/chester_northgate/index.shtml

Good account of closed stations around Chester/Wrexham/Deeside triangle on the Disused Stations website.

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/c/chester_northgate/index.shtml
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There are through buses via the Mersey road tunnel to Liverpool from Neston, Heswall and Upton which are more direct and a better frequency

Heswall stations a bit on the fringe of it anyway- I know I walked from it to thew town centre last year.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

From what you say there is obviously a commuter/shopping flow from the Welsh stations into Wrexham, but I find it a little surprising that it apparently exceeds the flow from mid-Wirral into Birkenhead and Liverpool. I suppose the change at Bidston and the convenience of the M53 puts people off.

Looked at the pasenger flows on the route last year (which I can do legally) - traffic into Wrexham is up , down into the Merseyside conurbation. Quite significantly.

Maybe the line is perhaps aligning itself to other needs (Yes - I know an hourly service and a change is not ideal for Liverpool access)

No-one seems to be able to crack the "how do you increase the service at a reasonable cost question"- note stress on "reasonable"

Diesel shuttle Dee Marsh ish to Wrexham on top of the core service anyone ?

(Look forward to the replies)

 

[jones_bangor]

Looked at the pasenger flows on the route last year (which I can do legally) - traffic into Wrexham is up , down into the Merseyside conurbation. Quite significantly.

No-one seems to be able to crack the "how do you increase the service at a reasonable cost question"- note stress on "reasonable"

Diesel shuttle Dee Marsh ish to Wrexham on top of the core service anyone ?

(Look forward to the replies)

A service calling at all stations from Wrexham Central to Rhyl, and to include re-opened stations at Holywell Junction, Mostyn and Talacre would be popular!

So would a similar service calling at Deeside Industrial Park (South), Garden City, Blacon and Chester.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There is no reason however why the service cannot terminate in Birkenhead North other than the fact ATW don't want to add another unit working on the line. At Bidston trains to Liverpool are at 15 minute intervals to Liverpool Central, but there are far better connection times (to both Liverpool and New Brighton!) to be had at Birkenhead North - which is less than a mile up the track with a third platform designed for use with Borderlands Line trains in mind!

Extension through to Birkenhead would make absolute sense, without the need for electrification. Spend that money on linespeed improvements.

Unfortunately, my experience of using the line isn't good, the information on a late running train off my mobile was more accurate than the ATW info board!! Locals tell me that there is an hourly train, with an eta of +/- 30 minutes!!

 

[emoaconr]

Extension through to Birkenhead would make absolute sense, without the need for electrification. Spend that money on linespeed improvements.

Unfortunately, my experience of using the line isn't good, the information on a late running train off my mobile was more accurate than the ATW info board!! Locals tell me that there is an hourly train, with an eta of +/- 30 minutes!!

That is absolutely correct. I rely on this service on a daily basis, and its not uncommon for trains to be delayed up to 30 minutes or even more which really is unacceptable. ATW's party trick is also terminating the service at Shotton and bustituing the Wirral-part of the journey as not to spoil their statistics (Shotton - Bidston via Neston & Heswall takes over an hour on rail replacement bus!!)

I believe this is mainly due to the fact:

• Extremely tight turnarounds at Bidston due to signalling of West Kirby trains which use the Wrexham platform (this could be alleviated by the use of the third platform at Birkenhead North)
• The use of only two units on this line both calling at all stations - any failure or slight delay affects the whole day.
• The current 1-hour journey clockface timetable is based upon the earlier timetables which relied on most stops being request stops. Since 2009, trains now call at all stops (except Hawarden Bridge, which remains a request on some services). This timetable is unsuitable for the all-stops service. To prove ATW's timetable incompetencies, the incoming service to Wrexham Central is scheduled to terminate at xx.32, with the outgoing service is leaving two minutes earlier before the train has even arrived at xx.30... hmm...
• The jointed track infrastructure significantly reduces linespeed (although it is being relaid at the moment)
• ATW's incompetence in fare collection which leads to guards being unable to promptly open doors at stops.

I would actually suggest rather than introducing a half-hourly all-stops service, I would rather see say a bi-hourly express service from Shrewsbury through to Birkenhead North calling at Gobowen, Chirk, Ruabon, Wrexham General, Gwersyllt, Buckley, Hawarden, Shoton, Neston, Heswall ... but I know this is EXTREMELY pie-in-the-sky. :roll: I realise that ATW had its application to run 158s on this line rejected by NR, but there's no reason why a double 153 or 150 isn't suitable enough. There did actually used to be a Sundays-only Shrewsbury-Bidston service apparently in the late 80s...

Oh and should Wrexham-Saltney be re-doubled, it'd be nice to see a crossover at Wrexham General and introduce a shuttle between Wrexham Central and Chester via Wrexham General (P4)!

 

[tbtc]

Could the Merseyside end have lower figures because of the way that PTE season tickets are calculated?

I know there have been arguments in Yorkshire about the true passenger numbers at some stations around Leeds because the zonal nature of WY Metro tickets mean that any passenger figures tend to be guesswork

 

[emoaconr]

Could the Merseyside end have lower figures because of the way that PTE season tickets are calculated?

I know there have been arguments in Yorkshire about the true passenger numbers at some stations around Leeds because the zonal nature of WY Metro tickets mean that any passenger figures tend to be guesswork

Its only in the past 12 months that Merseytravel's grid-type passes have been phased out :roll:

Hopefully Walrus will alleviate some problems

 

[merlodlliw]

From what you say there is obviously a commuter/shopping flow from the Welsh stations into Wrexham, but I find it a little surprising that it apparently exceeds the flow from mid-Wirral into Birkenhead and Liverpool. I suppose the change at Bidston and the convenience of the M53 puts people off.

Due to the shopping flow & the new shopping parks at Wrexham plus nightlife, it was WCBC who paid for & still pay for the three extra(6) services both ways on Sunday. They are 0844,1114 & 2114 to Bidston & return.
The franchise only requires 1344,1614 & 1844 to Bidston & return...

This started about five/six years ago, Our local rail users Assoc played hell due to ATW using stock for the 2114 for Bidston, previous when coming off the Bidston run, it ran Wrexham Gen to Chester,2204 back to Wrexham,then 2235 back to Chester, so the Wrexham to Chester line lost three services(well used) ATW soon found stock to replace the 2204 to Wrexham & return,when it was pointed out the new clockface timetable,gave an increase of 20% of Sunday trains, & Wrexham was the only major town to show a reduction on Sunday services due to ATW redirecting stock.
The 2204 Sunday to Wrexham is always full of students returning to Glyndwr University via Chester, plus others off many services

 

[Green Lane]

There are through buses via the Mersey road tunnel to Liverpool from Neston, Heswall and Upton which are more direct and a better frequency

Exactly, Upton is my local station on the Borderlands Line (Although I'm actually nearer to Birkenhead Central/Green Lane). Still, Upton is within walking distance and I do walk there quite regularly.

I use Upton for daytrips in to North Wales, but I would never use it to go in to Liverpool, even if I lived next door.

There's a 10-minute frequency bus service (437) going in to Birkenhead and Liverpool which stops near to the station. (Was every 7 to 8 minutes uintil a couple of months ago).

All local public transport users use that bus, instead of an hourly train service where you'd have to change after just one stop.
Also the railway line does not go straight (as the crow flies) to Liverpool, it's more of a circuitous loop around the north of Birkenhead. All things equal, the bus probably isn't any slower (although I'd have to look this up). In fact this bus service sometimes accepts rail tickets during times of disruption on the Borderlands Line.

I read on a local Wirral history site that there were originally plans for a shortcut railway line passing through Tranmere and Prenton, connecting Birkenhead Central directly to the Borderlands line near what is now the Woodchurch estate, but nothing ever came of it (apart from the fact that the layout of some streets in Tranmere betray the presence of the originally safe-guarded land).

Neston - Similar public transport situation except it's a half-hourly bus service into Liverpool.

Heswall bus station has several bus routes in to Birkenhead/Liverpool and the railway station (formerly "Heswall Hills") is nowhere near the centre of town, in fact it's on a "suburban-rural fringe".

Also, like myself, many people in more built-up areas of the Wirral are nearer to a Merseyrail station anyway.

I have noticed that the Welsh part of the Borderlands line is generally busier e.g. Gwersyllt seems to be quite well used.

As for Buckley, I travel there quite a lot at weekends and it's a station where always quite a few alight and a few board, despite the fact it's around a mile east of Buckley town centre.

So if the figures are showing the Merseyside end has lower figures, then I'd say that's about right.

 

[pablo]

Short memories. Wrexham trains used to terminate at New Brighton years ago. Seacombe would have been a better bet but that option disappeared in the 60s and then got buried under the Kingsway tunnel approach road. Might have kept the Mersey Ferry going a bit longer. :roll:
When the chord at Bidston triangle was wanted to be removed (?), they were cut back to Birkenhead North but then they terminated at platform 2. Signalling and a set of crossovers was installed for this purpose. It forced WK and NB trains to LPL through P3 whilst a DMU was in P2 making the curve north-west of the road bridge a bit tight for the EMUs. It gave the better connections that emoaconr craves.
Obviously some bright spark realised that cutting it back to Bidston saved one whole unit. Initially the waiting DMU used to back out of Bidston onto the Borderlands line to clear for WK bound trains but later a very sharp turnaround avoided that maneouver. Wot about the pax though? Draughtyest station in all the north-west?