North Wales Questions

[jones_bangor]

Talk of a new connecting chord at Shotton is blue-sky fantasy: there's no demand for it, no business case, no money and it's not going to happen.

All that is needed is a more convenient connecting service at Shotton, leading to a painless interchange. The current timetable cuts the connection very fine, and I'm sure many people get off the Bidston service only to see the Holyhead train pulling out of the other platform.

I suspect there's no money for any infrastructure improvements in North Wales for at least 7 years.

It's just when money comes available, this seems a better option.

 

[merlodlliw]

I suspect there's no money for any infrastructure improvements in North Wales for at least 7 years.

It's just when money comes available, this seems a better option.

Doubling the journey time seems the better option? I agree no money for years,its all been spent.

Bob

 

[tbtc]

almost exactly same 30 mins from Shotton to Wrexham either way. Bidston line is 40mph max with several stops

Oh well, not a realistic diversion for Wrexham - Chester services.

Though it would give a few stations a direct link to Chester's shops/jobs (
Penyffordd, Hope, Caergwrle, Cefn-y-Bedd, Gwersyllt...)

 

[jones_bangor]

Doubling the journey time seems the better option? I agree no money for years,its all been spent.

Bob

40mph line speed would have to be improved.

Peak time capacity increase really, but with new local services.

 

[D1009]

I'm surprised noone's suggested rebuilding the line from Dee Marsh Junction to Chester.

 

[jones_bangor]

I'm surprised noone's suggested rebuilding the line from Dee Marsh Junction to Chester.

Could be done.

Much better to spend money on improving line speed on Borderlands and linkages than wasting money on dangerous Victorian electrification schemes just to get yellow trains in Wrexham.

 

[merlodlliw]

Could be done.

Much better to spend money on improving line speed on Borderlands and linkages than wasting money on dangerous Victorian electrification schemes just to get yellow trains in Wrexham.

Nothing wrong with yellow trains into the Largest town in North Wales.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm surprised noone's suggested rebuilding the line from Dee Marsh Junction to Chester.

for what purpose
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

40mph line speed would have to be improved.

Peak time capacity increase really, but with new local services.

New local services to where.

 

[D1009]

for what purpose

Exactly.

 

[jones_bangor]

I'm surprised noone's suggested rebuilding the line from Dee Marsh Junction to Chester.

That's about 11km of relaid metal.

The whole Chester / Wrexham / Shotton area needs looking again.

The trip on "Caroline" may have pulled the wool over certain individuals eyes, but there's so much potential away from the flawed Saltney - Wrexham project.

 

[emoaconr]

Could be done.

Much better to spend money on improving line speed on Borderlands and linkages than wasting money on dangerous Victorian electrification schemes just to get yellow trains in Wrexham.

The line between Wrexham General and Shotton is being relaid as we speak throughout February and March.

Some parts of the Wirral portion are also being relaid, but most of that was done in the 1990's anyway.

That jointed track is in a terrible condition.

 

[Tracky]

I firmly believe a Wrexham Shotton Chester service would be worthwhile. This could be over the old line (calls en route) to a new Chester station or via a single line spiral to join Shotton Low Level.

I believe that there should be no half measures on the WRX CTR doubling.

Electrification is expensive and political vanity. 150's are fantastic machines.

 

[merlodlliw]

I firmly believe a Wrexham Shotton Chester service would be worthwhile. This could be over the old line (calls en route) to a new Chester station or via a single line spiral to join Shotton Low Level.

I believe that there should be no half measures on the WRX CTR doubling.

Electrification is expensive and political vanity. 150's are fantastic machines.

What do you mean by half measures? A new Chester station where

Bob
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That's about 11km of relaid metal.

The whole Chester / Wrexham / Shotton area needs looking again.

The trip on "Caroline" may have pulled the wool over certain individuals eyes, but there's so much potential away from the flawed Saltney - Wrexham project.

according to some, everything about the Largest populated town in North Wales and its railways is flawed.

 

[The Informer]

40mph line speed would have to be improved.

Peak time capacity increase really, but with new local services.

Linedspeed increase is getting looked at!

Who says there's no money??? 5 sites of jointed track are getting relaid as we speak with the aim of ridding all jointed track within 5 years. The wrexham to chester redouble should kick off this year followed by linespeed enhancments between Gobowen and salop. The infrastructure plans for N.Wales look promising. Trust me!

 

[merlodlliw]

Linedspeed increase is getting looked at!

Who says there's no money??? 5 sites of jointed track are getting relaid as we speak with the aim of ridding all jointed track within 5 years. The wrexham to chester redouble should kick off this year followed by linespeed enhancments between Gobowen and salop. The infrastructure plans for N.Wales look promising. Trust me!

You seem to be in the know about engineering,good news for Wrexham redouble from you.

Bob

 

[jones_bangor]

according to some, everything about the Largest populated town in North Wales and its railways is flawed.

Oh come on! My proposal could mean more Wrexham services.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The Beeching report traffic surveys actually showed that the usage between Dee Marsh Jnc and Chester Northgate was at a level that was not loss making. However the "duplicate" theory was brought out to play as he assumed it was all end to end traffic that could go via other routes. A station by the Deeside Ind Est which didnt exist at the time and at Blacon which has expanded hugely since the 60's (pop now 20,000 plus) and a link into Chester General would perhaps be viable is affordable.

Given that over half the rail commuters into one of the Worlds most important city's seem to mange OK on 3 rd rail everyday I can't see why some posters are so against it extending to Wrehxam. Perhaps beuase they think it will mean money not spent on lines west of the Conwy estuary?

 

[jones_bangor]

The Beeching report traffic surveys actually showed that the usage between Dee Marsh Jnc and Chester Northgate was at a level that was not loss making. However the "duplicate" theory was brought out to play as he assumed it was all end to end traffic that could go via other routes. A station by the Deeside Ind Est which didnt exist at the time and at Blacon which has expanded hugely since the 60's (pop now 20,000 plus) and a link into Chester General would perhaps be viable is affordable.

Given that over half the rail commuters into one of the Worlds most important city's seem to mange OK on 3 rd rail everyday I can't see why some posters are so against it extending to Wrehxam. Perhaps beuase they think it will mean money not spent on lines west of the Conwy estuary?

I think Blacon would benefit from a train station - one could almost have a Cheshire - Flintshire - Wrexham circle line.....

3rd rail....I just dn't see the point, if there's 75mph capable 150 Sprinters running at 40mph, shouldn't that be the first target to improve?

 

[tbtc]

3rd rail....I just dn't see the point, if there's 75mph capable 150 Sprinters running at 40mph, shouldn't that be the first target to improve?

Its quite simple - extending the electrification beyond Bidston would allow direct services from Wrexham to Liverpool, which would encourage people in Wrexham to work/shop in Liverpool, a fairly practical suggestion I'd have thought (just look how neighbouring Cheshire benefits from having people living there who work in Liverpool or Manchester).

If Chester can justify an EMU to Liverpool every fifteen minutes then Wrexham could have two trains an hour to Liverpool (one "fast" south of Bidston, one "slow), which would transform railway use in the area.

However at the moment Sprinters obviously aren't allowed into the tunnels under the Mersey/ Liverpool (ventilation issues), and the 507/508s can't run on unelectrified track, meaning there's no scope for a direct Liverpool - Wrexham service via Bidston/ Shotton.

With the Merseyrail 507/508s due to replacement in a few years time and any new Third Rail EMUs being built as dual voltage there's no reason not to wire the Wrexham line with overhead electrification later this decade.

 

[merlodlliw]

Oh come on! My proposal could mean more Wrexham services.

So ill ask again where from/to & where is the stock to come from?

 

[D1009]

I'm interested in the development at Blacon as I'm old enough to have travelled by rail through there. Has this encroached on the course of the railway though ?

 

[RobShipway]

So ill ask again where from/to & where is the stock to come from?

Well, at some point Mersey Travel I believe are planning on replacing the Class 507/508's when they become life expired so surely any replacemengt for those could be used to be extended to Wrexham if it was 3rd rail electrified? There was some talk of class 319's moving to Liverpool when Thameslink get's their new Siemens Trains so maybe use these?

However, if headroom space in the tunnels into Liverpool for a train to have a pantograph on it then I would think it might actually be better to have Wrexham setup with AC Overhead electrics?

 

[jones_bangor]

So ill ask again where from/to & where is the stock to come from?

150s would be the ideal stock. Sourcing would have to be part of the business plan.

 

[Holly]

Given that over half the rail commuters into one of the Worlds most important city's seem to mange OK on 3 rd rail everyday I can't see why some posters are so against it extending to Wrehxam. ...

The most obvious reason not to put third rail electrification between Bidston and Wrexham it that it would be cheaper to put in OHLE electrification. At least because much of the need to install new ugly lineside fencing would go away.

Of course dual voltage rolling stock would then be needed.

 

[merlodlliw]

Given that over half the rail commuters into one of the Worlds most important city's seem to mange OK on 3 rd rail everyday I can't see why some posters are so against it extending to Wrehxam. Perhaps beuase they think it will mean money not spent on lines west of the Conwy estuary?[/QUOTE]n Gareth Marston

Indeed the busiest line into Chester is Merseyrail,more trains & more than half the passengers. No other ATW/Cardiff run Hub station has four tocs using it,if I am not mistaken & a call to bypass this is ridiculous.

Bob
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150s would be the ideal stock. Sourcing would have to be part of he business plan.

So where are the diesel 150s to come from, and what route.

 

[jones_bangor]

So where are the diesel 150s to come from, and what route.

I can't answer that, because I don't know!

 

[merlodlliw]

I can't answer that, because I don't know!

OK fair enough, but with liquid gold running scarce & pricey, electrics may well be the answer, power from biomass of course.

Bob

 

[jones_bangor]

power from biomass of course.

of course. And wind. And hot air too.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I'm interested in the development at Blacon as I'm old enough to have travelled by rail through there. Has this encroached on the course of the railway though ?

The whole shooting match form Dee Mrsh Jnc to Chester & Mickle Trafford is a cycleway/bridleway its intact apart from where the A494 cuts through it and it has a footbridge in situ. It survived for freight till the early 90's hence its survival as LA's were more enlightened than 30 years before.
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The most obvious reason not to put third rail electrification between Bidston and Wrexham it that it would be cheaper to put in OHLE electrification. At least because much of the need to install new ugly lineside fencing would go away.

Of course dual voltage rolling stock would then be needed.

Not adverse to dv stock that but someone at NR would still insist on the fencing.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I can't answer that, because I don't know!

Theres no planned movement in UK 150 stock after the current LM cascade. You need Northern, ATW, or FGW to order new stock in order to free any up.
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28 February 2012 Last updated at 18:27


Anglesey council cuts 34 bus services after reduction in grant


A council says it has no option but to cut 34 bus services after a reduction in a Welsh government grant to support public transport.

From April some services on Anglesey will be dropped altogether, while others will have the times changed.

The council said everything was being done to minimise the impact.

The Welsh government said there were "significant pressures" on transport budgets, but called on Anglesey not to make "premature decisions".

Dewi Williams, the council's head of highways services, said: "Whilst it is inevitable that there will be some inconvenience caused to the passengers who depend on these services, we've made every effort to minimise the impact of the changes.
Continue reading the main story
“Start Quote

This unexpected reduction to the grant... has unfortunately left us with no option but to reduce the number of bus services we provide”

Dewi Williams Anglesey council

"We want to maintain connectivity for Anglesey communities, especially our rural areas," he added.

He said this was being done by withdrawing services where there are alternatives already available, or those which are least used.

"This unexpected reduction to the grant, which was used to supplement the county council's own funding, has unfortunately left us with no option but to reduce the number of bus services we provide."

"After withdrawing the 34 contracted journeys we will still continue to provide a total of 408 contracted journeys, out of a total number of bus journeys operated in Anglesey of 555.

"To put it in context, we are withdrawing less than 8% of the journeys currently provided," he added.

The bus companies which have had minor changes to their contracts as a result of the changes are Arriva Buses Wales, Eifion's Coaches, Goodsir Coaches, Gwynfor's Coaches, and Padarn Bus.

Carl Sargeant, the minister with responsibility for transport, said: "I face significant pressures on my transport budgets resulting from the financial settlement from the UK government.

"It is clear that with less money to go around, we simply cannot carry on in the same way as in the past."

"However, negotiations with local authorities and bus operators are under way.

"I would urge Anglesey not to make premature decisions on service cuts but to engage in these constructive discussions which are aimed at protecting services and, in the longer term, producing a more effective bus financing scheme for Wales".

 

[tbtc]

...meaning that some places on Anglesey will have a better public transport service to Cardiff than they do to other parts of the island?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'm interested in the development at Blacon as I'm old enough to have travelled by rail through there. Has this encroached on the course of the railway though ?

The line is now mostly a cycle track, but it has been badly encroached at Sealand (for the widened A494), and the levels at Chester are all wrong, even though the CLC route runs virtually over the throat of the Alstom class 175 depot.

The business case for electrification depends first on getting electrics running south of Bidston to Woodchurch and then perhaps to Heswall or Neston.
Wales & Borders would then run on the truncated section south to Wrexham.
But Merseytravel can't even get the Wirrral case approved, so in my view electrification of the whole line is fantasy.
I sometimes use the line to reach Liverpool, but it's faster and cheaper to drive to Hooton and get the 6tph from there.

Have you seen the passenger numbers from the Borderlands stations?

2009/10 ORR footfall (000, both directions):
Wrexham Central 43
Gwersyllt 32
Cefn-y-Bedd 8
Caergwrle 23
Hope 22
Penyffordd 19 (some of these are me!)
Buckley 48
Hawarden 36
Shotton 201 (HL+LL)
Hawarden Bridge 7
Neston 36
Heswall 45
Upton 21
There are 28 Borderlands trains a day (12 on Sundays).
Dividing the above numbers by 10 gives you a rough passengers-per-train boarding/leaving at each station.
As you can see, they are penny numbers.

Meanwhile, on the big railway:
Wrexham Gen 584
Chester 2990 (largest ATW station footfall other than Cardiff Cen 10742)
Hooton 527

Some others for comparison:
Flint 234
Prestatyn 333
Rhyl 583
Abergele 71
Colwyn Bay 275
Llandudno Jn 313 (Llandudno itself 286)
Bangor 591
Holyhead 185
Ruabon 71
Chirk 56
Gobowen 193
Shrewsbury 1630