North-South Wales services

[anti-pacer]

Does anyone know how busy these services are in terms of through journeys between North and South Wales?

I've heard they're popular but with the geography of Wales, the North tends to look more to the North West of England than South Wales.

I suppose WDA staff will use them and anyone connected to Welsh bodies/organisations who may need to travel to Cardiff.

I'd be interested to know anyway.

(Mods: Wasn't sure which section to post this in, so please move if needed).

 

[Greenback]

I've moved the thread to this forum, as it is more about timetables than infrastructure.

Does anyone know how busy these services are in terms of through journeys between North and South Wales?

There has been plenty of discussion about the through services in many and various threads. I am not sure what your definition is of North and South Wales. In any case, the trains serve markets other than that, such as Shrewsbury to Bangor, so I'm not sure the number of through passengers between sets of stations affects things.

I've heard they're popular but with the geography of Wales, the North tends to look more to the North West of England than South Wales.

It does. But there is also demand for travel to and from places like Chester, Ludlow, Wrexham and Hereford. The north - south trains also help to provide a regular and frequent service along the Marches.

I suppose WDA staff will use them and anyone connected to Welsh bodies/organisations who may need to travel to Cardiff.

I'd be interested to know anyway.

I have used them, and I am not connected to any Welsh organisations, nor was i travelling to Cardiff on business. In fact, I was going to and returning from a holiday in North Wales. I have also used the trains to travel to Shrewsbury, and to Wrexham.

There is, however, a politicla element to these services, and this cannot be denied.

 

[anti-pacer]

I've moved the thread to this forum, as it is more about timetables than infrastructure.



There has been plenty of discussion about the through services in many and various threads. I am not sure what your definition is of North and South Wales. In any case, the trains serve markets other than that, such as Shrewsbury to Bangor, so I'm not sure the number of through passengers between sets of stations affects things.



It does. But there is also demand for travel to and from places like Chester, Ludlow, Wrexham and Hereford. The north - south trains also help to provide a regular and frequent service along the Marches.



I have used them, and I am not connected to any Welsh organisations, nor was i travelling to Cardiff on business. In fact, I was going to and returning from a holiday in North Wales. I have also used the trains to travel to Shrewsbury, and to Wrexham.

There is, however, a politicla element to these services, and this cannot be denied.

North Wales to South Wales I would probably define as anywhere from Holyhead to Shotton. South Wales, Abergavenny onwards.

I meant the journeys that start in North Wales and end in South Wales.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

IThere is, however, a politicla element to these services, and this cannot be denied.

There isn't, except for the Gerald service which is Welsh Government funded.
All the others were in the 2003 DfT franchise spec subsequently handed to WG to manage.
Apart from the Valleys services, virtually all ATW services (and FGW/VT/XC Welsh services) are cross-border and have as much relevance to English counties as Welsh.
ATW trains through Hereford, for instance, don't just "happen to pass through a bit of England on the way" but provide a critical part of Hereford's connectivity with the rest of the UK.

 

[Greenback]

North Wales to South Wales I would probably define as anywhere from Holyhead to Shotton. South Wales, Abergavenny onwards.

I meant the journeys that start in North Wales and end in South Wales.

As a broad definition, I would tend to agree, but from the perspective of someone in South Wales, Wrexham is most definitely included in North Wales.

I am still a bit unclear why passengers boarding at stations before Shotton can't be included in the total of through travellers if they are going to Shrewsbury, Hereford, Ludlow, or Leominster. In fact, they should be relevant to discussions of the services if they are travelling between any of the stations which would not be linked directly in the absence of a through North - South Wales service.

It seems a bit strange to have arbitrary boundaries, a bit like saying that only passengers boarding before Taunton and alighting after York should be counted when analysing usage of a Plymouth - Newcastle train.

 

[anti-pacer]

As a broad definition, I would tend to agree, but from the perspective of someone in South Wales, Wrexham is most definitely included in North Wales.

I am still a bit unclear why passengers boarding at stations before Shotton can't be included in the total of through travellers if they are going to Shrewsbury, Hereford, Ludlow, or Leominster. In fact, they should be relevant to discussions of the services if they are travelling between any of the stations which would not be linked directly in the absence of a through North - South Wales service.

It seems a bit strange to have arbitrary boundaries, a bit like saying that only passengers boarding before Taunton and alighting after York should be counted when analysing usage of a Plymouth - Newcastle train.

Sorry, forgot about dear old Wrexham.

I just wondered what main reasons people from the North Wales travel to South Wales (and vice versa) when you're so distant from each other (not helped by poor road connectivity and a series of mountains). Holidays and government meetings aside?

I bet someone watching BBC Wales Today in, say, Colwyn Bay has about as much interest in what goes in South Wales than it would somewhere like the West Midlands.

 

[Greenback]

There isn't, except for the Gerald service which is Welsh Government funded.
All the others were in the 2003 DfT franchise spec subsequently handed to WG to manage.
Apart from the Valleys services, virtually all ATW services (and FGW/VT/XC Welsh services) are cross-border and have as much relevance to English counties as Welsh.
ATW trains through Hereford, for instance, don't just "happen to pass through a bit of England on the way" but provide a critical part of Hereford's connectivity with the rest of the UK.

I agree with the relevance of the English counties, which was the point I was making about including travllers between the Marches and either North or South Wale sin the discussion.

I do believe, however, that the franchise specs of through trains between the North and the South of Wales were at the very least influenced by the political pressure coming from the Welsh Assembly following devolution.

Sorry, forgot about dear old Wrexham.

Don't worry you're not the first and won't be the last!

I just wondered what main reasons people from the North Wales travel to South Wales (and vice versa) when you're so distant from each other (not helped by poor road connectivity and a series of mountains). Holidays and government meetings aside?

Well, why does anyone travel anywhere? Students will be going back and fore (I did in the 1990's), people will be visiting relations, going to business events, having a day out, and all sorts of things.

I was talking to several people on a Manchester train one day, when travelling between Llanelli and Cardiff. One was returning home to Shrewsbury after working in Carmarthen for a short period. One was going to change at Crewe to see their grandson in Chester, and a third was just going to Cardiff for a night out. A different route, maybe, but quite revealing as to the varied reasons for travel!

I bet someone watching BBC Wales Today in, say, Colwyn Bay has about as much interest in what goes in South Wales than it would somewhere like the West Midlands.

There is some truth in this. But it also applies to regions in England. When I lived in reading I watched the London news, which had little interest for Reading folk, but just happened to be the best picture!

Similarly, someone living in Pembrokeshire is not going to be interested in the goings on in Cardiff (or, indeed, Colwyn Bay). The point is that the majority will identify themselves as Welsh.

 

[anti-pacer]

I agree with the relevance of the English counties, which was the point I was making about including travllers between the Marches and either North or South Wale sin the discussion.

I do believe, however, that the franchise specs of through trains between the North and the South of Wales were at the very least influenced by the political pressure coming from the Welsh Assembly following devolution.



Don't worry you're not the first and won't be the last!



Well, why does anyone travel anywhere? Students will be going back and fore (I did in the 1990's), people will be visiting relations, going to business events, having a day out, and all sorts of things.

I was talking to several people on a Manchester train one day, when travelling between Llanelli and Cardiff. One was returning home to Shrewsbury after working in Carmarthen for a short period. One was going to change at Crewe to see their grandson in Chester, and a third was just going to Cardiff for a night out. A different route, maybe, but quite revealing as to the varied reasons for travel!



There is some truth in this. But it also applies to regions in England. When I lived in reading I watched the London news, which had little interest for Reading folk, but just happened to be the best picture!

Similarly, someone living in Pembrokeshire is not going to be interested in the goings on in Cardiff (or, indeed, Colwyn Bay). The point is that the majority will identify themselves as Welsh.

Wales just fascinates me as you have to come out of it, into England, and back into it, if you're travelling north/south to south/north, unless you want to travel on the A470, scenic though it is.

Pity they can't open a line from say Carmarthen, up towards Aberystwyth, linking the Cambrian line, and a new bit up to Bangor. Now that would be nice!

Impractical and pointless in all other senses though!

 

[Greenback]

Wales just fascinates me as you have to come out of it, into England, and back into it, if you're travelling north/south to south/north, unless you want to travel on the A470, scenic though it is.

This irritated me immensely as a 9 year old child on my first ever family holiday in North Wales!

Pity they can't open a line from say Carmarthen, up towards Aberystwyth, linking the Cambrian line, and a new bit up to Bangor. Now that would be nice!

Impractical and pointless in all other senses though!

Yes. Such lines used to exist, but they were slow by modern standards and would not be able to provide a competitive service today.

As you said in your first post, geography does not favour North - South travel at all. It is the geographical factors that have led North Wales to be more heavily linked with Manchester and Merseyside than to the South.

Although bigger, the same is true of other countries. Look at Italy, ther eis little in common between the inhabitants of Milan and Catania, apart from the fact that they are Italian, yet I have seen the overnight train departing Milano Centrale on its very long journey to Sicily!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I bet someone watching BBC Wales Today in, say, Colwyn Bay has about as much interest in what goes in South Wales than it would somewhere like the West Midlands.

We get both Wales and North-West programmes.
If you watch Wales you hear plenty about murders 150 miles away in Swansea but nothing about murders 15 miles away in Chester.
If you watch North West you wouldn't hear about murders even in the next road!
We watch adverts for store sales in places like Merthyr Tydfil and Bridgend with amusement - they're on another planet for most of us up here.
Many folk needing treatment here are sent to hospitals in Chester and Liverpool (and vice versa), and what happens in Cardiff hospitals is of no interest at all.

We have local newpapers published on both sides of the border (the Chronicle series and the Leader series). The front pages will have different headlines but the housing ads will be the same...
Princess Diana's butler who lived in Farndon (one side of the Dee in Cheshire) was described on Wales Today as the "owner of a flower shop in Holt" - on the other side of the Dee in Wales.
Big Welsh trials are often held in Chester, but we have the spectacle of a BBC Wales guy (usually poor old Matthew Richards) stood in the pouring rain outside Chester Crown Court, and if there is a north-west interest as there often is, a BBC North West guy will be stood a few yards away giving the same story!

There are people in the Maelor district (between Wrexham and Whitchurch) who have a three-way identity split - Wales Today, North West Tonight or Midlands Today?
Marchers like us (live one side of the border, work on the other) take it in our stride - but don't ask us to choose!
Just a personal view, of course.

 

[anti-pacer]

We get both Wales and North-West programmes.
If you watch Wales you hear plenty about murders 150 miles away in Swansea but nothing about murders 15 miles away in Chester.
If you watch North West you wouldn't hear about murders even in the next road!

Ha ha! Yeah, BBC North West Tonight.... or as I called it when I lived in Manchester.... CRIMEWATCH!

 

[anthony263]

The Holyhead - Cardiff services are due to have be sped up once the linespeeds are increased along the north wales coast etc with Trains arriving into Cardiff 10-15 minutes earlier than they do now.

I think ATW do plan to have an incoming service from Holyhead arriving into Cardiff at say 13:05 work the 13:20 return working to Holyhead this would free up one unit which can be used elsewhere. Hopefully atw will use that freed up dmu to plug the two hours gaps on the Cardiff - Cheltenham service.

One question will then need to be asked and that it is will there be any point in continuing to run Gerald when the standard Cardiff - Holyhead services have they journey times reduced to 4 hours 35 minutes?

 

[Gareth Marston]

The Holyhead - Cardiff services are due to have be sped up once the linespeeds are increased along the north wales coast etc with Trains arriving into Cardiff 10-15 minutes earlier than they do now.

I think ATW do plan to have an incoming service from Holyhead arriving into Cardiff at say 13:05 work the 13:20 return working to Holyhead this would free up one unit which can be used elsewhere. Hopefully atw will use that freed up dmu to plug the two hours gaps on the Cardiff - Cheltenham service.

One question will then need to be asked and that it is will there be any point in continuing to run Gerald when the standard Cardiff - Holyhead services have they journey times reduced to 4 hours 35 minutes?

With the noises about cuts coming from Cardiff Gerald could be a cut candidate, anyone know when the current funding runs out?

Ive been travelling to Cardiff on business for over 10 years and theres little sign of any pick up in mid Wales to Cardiff traffic, I get the 0719 off Shrewsbury on way down and it's hard to tell the starting points of those already onboard though the numbers travelling through are swamped by the commuters into hereford from ludlow and Leominster. I tend to get Manchester's back up though I sometimes see the holyhead trains get into Shrewsbury the later departures from Cardiff are well used but I once got the 1121 off Cardiff and had a carriage to myself as far as newport

 

[cymro inside]

If you define a North - South journey as any journey that crosses Shrewsbury (eg, Gobowen to church stretton would be included), then excluding the two quiet trains - 0425 Hereford (HDD) to Cardiff Central (CDF) and 05xx CDF to Llandudno - then reservation lists show between 30 and 60 reservations per train.

This does not include non-reserved journeys.

Also Cardiff is in the top 24 destinations selected by passengers using Star Ticket machines at Holyhead, Bangor, Llandudno Junction, Colwyn Bay and Rhyl stations.

I don't know about stations to the east of Rhyl.

At Bangor it is the 9th most popular destination and that does not include Freedom of Wales Rovers, which also sell quite well.

 

[Greenback]

if you define a nth-sth journey as any journey that crosses shrewsbury ie gobowen to church stretton would be included, then excluding the two quiet trains- 0425 hhd to cdf and 05xx cdf to Llandudno then reservation lists show between 30 and 60 reservations per train, this does not include non reserved journeys, also Cardiff is in the top 24 of star ticket machines at Holyhead bangor Llandudno junction colwyn bay and rhyl.dont know about stations to the east of rhyl. at bangor it is the 9th most popular destination and that does not incude freedom of wales rovers which also sell quite well.

That's very interesting information. I also like the idea of using Shrewsbury as a defining point!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

at bangor it is the 9th most popular destination and that does not incude freedom of wales rovers which also sell quite well.

So the 9th most popular destination is the terminus of 30% of the trains (8 out of 26)?
It would be interesting to know what the top 8 destinations are.
Are any of them not currently served by through trains (AW/VT)?
I would guess Liverpool is one, but what about places like Leeds or Bristol?

 

[Squaddie]

So the 9th most popular destination is the terminus of 30% of the trains (8 out of 26)?

With respect, that is irrelevant, because the 8 more popular destinations may be places at which that train calls en route.

I'm actually a little surprised that Cardiff is the 9th most popular destination for travellers starting their journeys at Bangor. But perhaps people are beginning to realise that Cardiff is a better shopping and leisure destination than anywhere in north Wales or the north west of England?

 

[Gareth Marston]

if you define a nth-sth journey as any journey that crosses shrewsbury ie gobowen to church stretton would be included, then excluding the two quiet trains- 0425 hhd to cdf and 05xx cdf to Llandudno then reservation lists show between 30 and 60 reservations per train, this does not include non reserved journeys, also Cardiff is in the top 24 of star ticket machines at Holyhead bangor Llandudno junction colwyn bay and rhyl.dont know about stations to the east of rhyl. at bangor it is the 9th most popular destination and that does not incude freedom of wales rovers which also sell quite well.

The 2 quite trains are of course very busy but not with north to south traffic!
The 0425 into Hereford and again it picks up from Abergavenny and the 05xx into Chester
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So the 9th most popular destination is the terminus of 30% of the trains (8 out of 26)?
It would be interesting to know what the top 8 destinations are.
Are any of them not currently served by through trains (AW/VT)?
I would guess Liverpool is one, but what about places like Leeds or Bristol?

Without seeing the actual figures its a bit pointless the number 8 flow could be five times the size as 9 and 10 through to 40 only marginally smaller or any other combo!
Though there have been rumours that the Cardiff market has been pump primed by readily available AP tickets not found on other routes

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Though there have been rumours that the Cardiff market has been pump primed by readily available AP tickets not found on other routes

Quick search from Bangor on Wednesday:

Cardiff £26 advance.
And at a similar distance by rail (c210 miles):
Oxford £34 advance (via XC/Wolverhampton)
Carlisle, Hull about £80, anytime single only
All these places (including Cardiff) are about £85 off-peak return.
Other advances: Manchester £19, Birmingham £15, London £38 (VT)

 

[Gareth Marston]

Quick search from Bangor on Wednesday:

Cardiff £26 advance.
And at a similar distance by rail (c210 miles):
Oxford £34 advance (via XC/Wolverhampton)
Carlisle, Hull about £80, anytime single only
All these places (including Cardiff) are about £85 off-peak return.
Other advances: Manchester £19, Birmingham £15, London £38 (VT)

There's AP fares available in the system for every North to South and vice versa direct train this Friday except the 1721 off Cardiff.

 

[SprinterMan]

Quick search from Bangor on Wednesday:

Cardiff £26 advance.
And at a similar distance by rail (c210 miles):
Oxford £34 advance (via XC/Wolverhampton)
Carlisle, Hull about £80, anytime single only
All these places (including Cardiff) are about £85 off-peak return.
Other advances: Manchester £19, Birmingham £15, London £38 (VT)

I have done Bangor to Carlisle with a 16-25 railcard and an AP ticket for £6.60 before! :P

 

[merlodlliw]

I have read the threads with interest, a few points have been made which I would like to respond to.

Geralds contract as an open access train is forecast to run up to 2015, that was the date WG shelled £3.5M for carriage/67/DVT to go via Wrexham. WG also pays ATW £1Mplus a year to run Gerald, I dont see the plug being pulled before 2015, I was not a fan of the service using the extravagance of a dining car, which appears little used when I see Gerald in Wrexham, the return working at 1821 from Cardiff is far too late.

I agree with Greenback, there is a political element has to the numbers of North/South Wales ATW trains. When WG pulled the plug on the 175(WAG2) to run via Wrexham, ATW carried on running the service from Llandudno ex 0802. Having caught this service at Wrexham for Cardiff on a few occasions, it runs non stop Shrewsbury to Newport, but it empties at Shrewsbury with very few remaining on board. The cost of travel on this train Wrexham to Cardiff is artificially low as well.

Cardiff is a nice place, but if you live in North East Wales & want to shop, Chester/Liverpool/Manchester are the choice, I would be surprised if more than a handful would go to Cardiff out of choice.

I fully agree about TV coverage, what happens domestically in the South is of little interest to anyone in North East Wales. That is if you can even receive Welsh TV channels.

My opinion of course

 

[anti-pacer]

I'm actually a little surprised that Cardiff is the 9th most popular destination for travellers starting their journeys at Bangor. But perhaps people are beginning to realise that Cardiff is a better shopping and leisure destination than anywhere in north Wales or the north west of England?

Anywhere in North Wales, agreed, but better than Manchester or Liverpool? I doubt it.

Also, other closer cities such as Leeds and Birmingham, have better shopping than Cardiff. All the above are in the top 10 CACI UK retail rankings, whereas Cardiff along with nearby Bristol aren't.

Cardiff (and Bristol) are good for shopping in my opinion, and may warrant a "let's shop somewhere different" day out from North Wales, but to suggest Cardiff is pulling North Walians away from the North of England cities is ludicrous.

Leisure wise, well, look at what Liverpool and Manchester offer. Plenty!

 

[cymro inside]

top 10 as i was told but not in order as I cannot recall the order llandudno junction, rhyl, chester , Liverpool, Manchester ,London Euston, Birmingham new street, Cardiff central, Holyhead and colwyn bay, Llandudno surprisingly not on list as there is a direct bus every 15 mins and no direct trains, llandudno junction is on list because of strong commuter flows and major flows in evenings and on Saturdays to the cinema at llj.there are no real surprises on this list and there is hardly a cigarette paper between 7th 8th and 9th on the list and not a yawning chasm, there are strong flows not in top 10 to colwyn bay Wrexham warrington stoke and Bristol.expect to see a rise in usership when the next set of user stats are released as new car park is already 80 per cent full most days and a third tvm is about to be installed,and a cashpoint machine too.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
sorry type error chester should be in top ten list not colwyn bay

 

[Gareth Marston]

More on Bangor to Cardiff Advanced Purchase

I checked at lunchtime theirs no AP's left for the 1321 ex CDF now but you can fill your boots on every other north to south direct train apart from the 1721 ex CDF. Interestingly the Holyhead - BHM INTL trains have NO AP's on them to Cardiff despite making a very good connection at Shrewsbury onto the ex Manchesters.

 

[merlodlliw]

More on Bangor to Cardiff Advanced Purchase

I checked at lunchtime theirs no AP's left for the 1321 ex CDF now but you can fill your boots on every other north to south direct train apart from the 1721 ex CDF. Interestingly the Holyhead - BHM INTL trains have NO AP's on them to Cardiff despite making a very good connection at Shrewsbury onto the ex Manchesters.

Last night I booked the wife on a Wrexham/Cardiff service for next Tuesday ,had no trouble getting an advanced single at £14 in each direction.

Ex Wrexham 1231.
Ex Cardiff 2055.

Decided to pick her up at Shrewsbury on the return as there is almost an hours wait for the rail replacement bus to depart Shrewsbury for all stations to Chester,

I do believe, however, that the franchise specs of through trains between the North and the South of Wales were at the very least influenced by the political pressure coming from the Welsh Assembly following devolution.[/QUOTEGreenback)

I have started a thread on the main page,Iuan Wyn Jones retirement from Politics with immediate effect,I am sure he was the main influence for the political pressure under his stewardship as Rail Minister you mention

Bob

 

[cymro inside]

so now prominent members of rail user groups are complaining that cheap fares are available....whatever next:roll:

 

[merlodlliw]

so now prominent members of rail user groups are complaining that cheap fares are available....whatever next:roll:

How is it a a complaint, just confirmation of what Gareth Marston reports.

Bob

 

[30907]

When WG pulled the plug on the 175(WAG2) to run via Wrexham, ATW carried on running the service from Llandudno ex 0802. Having caught this service at Wrexham for Cardiff on a few occasions, it runs non stop Shrewsbury to Newport, but it empties at Shrewsbury with very few remaining on board.

Only used WAG2 once - a Monday in February - yes it filled up into SHR and emptied a bit there, as you'd expect seeing as it's in the Brum path, but it was still reasonably loaded right through to Newport.

 

[Gareth Marston]

How is it a a complaint, just confirmation of what Gareth Marston reports.

Bob

Just to remind folk I've been a regular business /leisure traveler down the Marches to Cardiff for over 10 years. I was down today. I lobbied for regular 2/3 direct north to south trains over 10 years ago when I was part of Rail Passenger Council Wales. However where I think a lot of people are coming from is that the Wales and Border franchise was let on the basis of "no growth" yet there is one small segment* of it that has clearly been part of an attempt to stimulate growth whilst the rest of it has been left to muddle on. That small segment has had nine direct trains introduced when there use to be one and would appear to benefit from preferential availability of advance purchase fares other routes dont have.

*ORR 11/12 said that the footfall in Wales was 47 million 1% would be c470,000 per annum which i doubt north to south achieves.- that would be 600 a day each direction by the way.