North London Link (pre-electrification)

[leytongabriel]

WAs North LOndon link ever an official name . I can remember the North LOndon Line that ran from Broad Street to Richmond

Yes there was a bit of a NSE fashion for 'links' at the time. Remember feeling a bit irritated when they put up 'North London Link' in white letters on the bridge over Mare St by Hackney Central Station. I think 'Crosstown Link' was used when the Camden Rd - Stratford diesel service started before the 'new' stations opened. The trains used to be every 40m I think and would pass my workplace with a handful of people on them, if that. 'Marsh Link ' was another one for the Ashford - Hastings line.

 

[Taunton]

Out of curiosity (I don't remember seeing any freight on the line) I've found a few pictures of 'BR blue' era freight, e.g. this from 1982 and this (industrial shunter on the Silvertown Tramway in 1989 (again, photos not mine)



An alternative possible tack (although possibly later era than intended here) - I did hear suggestions that the N Woolwich Museum was seriously looking in to getting a section of track (alongside the NLL) operational for at least demonstration runs with preserved steam. Was that ever a serious proposition, or a lot of 'what if'?

The one loco I saw on the Silvertown Tramway (I didn't pass it often), must have been about 1985, was not a shunter at all but a Class 47! The scrap metal trains seemed not to be regular, but ran when there was a complete trainload. The tracks remained in the weeds much until the DLR extension to Woolwich was built along its route round about year 2000.

The one 08 shunter I did see there was one Sunday when they laid the conductor rail for the DC electrification, propelling the works train. They were making extremely rapid progress, I think they only took a few weekends to do the whole length from Stratford.

If I remember correctly the North Woolwich line went down to single track at Custom House, on the former Down line, through the tunnel under the dock to North Woolwich. The old Up line was retained as a siding, also through the tunnel, to alongside Silvertown station where hand points allowed a reversal along the Tramway. Both Custom House and Silvertown stations were rebuilt quite nicely, the former as part of the DLR Beckton line which is alongside, the latter as a station serving the City airport, just a couple of streets away. All these recent structures were swept away for Crossrail now running on the alignment (and back on both tracks through the tunnel).

The North Woolwich museum did have ideas for running steam demonstrations, and there were locomotives behind the building where the platforms used to be, one restored industrial tank (I think the one that now sits on a plinth outside Stratford station by the bus terminal), and a couple of Barry hulks. I think it was stargazing by one or two individuals.

 

[RichJF]

The one loco I saw on the Silvertown Tramway (I didn't pass it often), must have been about 1985, was not a shunter at all but a Class 47! The scrap metal trains seemed not to be regular, but ran when there was a complete trainload. The tracks remained in the weeds much until the DLR extension to Woolwich was built along its route round about year 2000.

The one 08 shunter I did see there was one Sunday when they laid the conductor rail for the DC electrification, propelling the works train. They were making extremely rapid progress, I think they only took a few weekends to do the whole length from Stratford.

If I remember correctly the North Woolwich line went down to single track at Custom House, on the former Down line, through the tunnel under the dock to North Woolwich. The old Up line was retained as a siding, also through the tunnel, to alongside Silvertown station where hand points allowed a reversal along the Tramway. Both Custom House and Silvertown stations were rebuilt quite nicely, the former as part of the DLR Beckton line which is alongside, the latter as a station serving the City airport, just a couple of streets away. All these recent structures were swept away for Crossrail now running on the alignment (and back on both tracks through the tunnel).

The North Woolwich museum did have ideas for running steam demonstrations, and there were locomotives behind the building where the platforms used to be, one restored industrial tank (I think the one that now sits on a plinth outside Stratford station by the bus terminal), and a couple of Barry hulks. I think it was stargazing by one or two individuals.

I did see the Silvertown scrap train on a few pages. Definitely something I could incorporate, say a 31/37 + 2 open wagons or something.

I think the North Woolwich museum scheme was canned by Crossrail taking the trackbed. No idea where the stock from the museum ended up.

 

[Davester50]

There's an interesting cab ride video on YouTube along the NLL in 1987, slightly out of the time the OP is looking for, but an interesting period none the less

 

[country_end_37]

I am sure that I have seen the phrase used in publicity but not as a consistent brand name

I remember in 2007-8 there still being some old direction signs at Highbury & Islington on the route from the one of the Victoria Line platforms, with 'North London Link' in one place and 'North London Line' in another — I think took a photo because (ignorant of the history) I wondered whether the 'k' was a typo.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

I did see the Silvertown scrap train on a few pages. Definitely something I could incorporate, say a 31/37 + 2 open wagons or something.

You could also incorporate a small scrapyard, aka Wards of Silvertown. I took the attached a few years ago. The loco, Sentinal (S)10189 was plain yellow, no markings other than buffer beam chevrons, and it was the 0-4-0 variety (ie with connecting rods - painted red) as opposed to the 4 wheel chain driven version. Both are/were made by Hornby a few years back.

 

[CaptainBen]

I remember in 2007-8 there still being some old direction signs at Highbury & Islington on the route from the one of the Victoria Line platforms, with 'North London Link' in one place and 'North London Line' in another — I think took a photo because (ignorant of the history) I wondered whether the 'k' was a typo.

They were still there (along with a lot of other, rather faded, NSE signage and decor) until about 2019. Then the Moorgate line got a bit of renovation to go with the 717s and the stations stopped looking like the 1980s.

 

[Taunton]

I did see the Silvertown scrap train on a few pages. Definitely something I could incorporate, say a 31/37 + 2 open wagons or something.

I think the North Woolwich museum scheme was canned by Crossrail taking the trackbed. No idea where the stock from the museum ended up.

It sounds even more unlikely, but you could incorporate Flying Scotsman. When the North Woolwich Museum opened in 1984 Scotsman itself hauled HM The Queen Mother down the line to do the honours. Not the full royal train; just a first class coach I think.

Shame the museum fell on stony ground and has been boarded up long term.

Incidentally, while looking for the date for this I discovered on Google Books a book "East London Railways: From Docklands to Crossrail", by Batten, which apart from answering ny question has a full set of dmu pictures, of every type covered above and more, which was a serial distraction to me, and seems to answer the original question fully :

East London Railways

Britain’s railways in the early 1970s looked to be in terminal decline. The Beeching cuts of the 1960s had slashed much of the network, but still lines were closing and underinvestment left much of the rest in a sorry state. Since then, there has been privatisation and transformation (although...

books.google.co.uk

 

[Irascible]

I did see the Silvertown scrap train on a few pages. Definitely something I could incorporate, say a 31/37 + 2 open wagons or something.

If you're going back to DMU days there might be a little more traffic to choose from - I don't know what though. The line was one of those quirky things I learned about as a kid when I was trying to get my head around how industry was changing, by the time I was in the ( very vague ) area it'd already gone.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

If you're going back to DMU days there might be a little more traffic to choose from - I don't know what though. The line was one of those quirky things I learned about as a kid when I was trying to get my head around how industry was changing, by the time I was in the ( very vague ) area it'd already gone.

Pretty much the whole area "deindustriallised" rapidly from the 1960's , if not before - together with the collapse of the traditional docks (much moved to Tilbury , Southampton and Felixstowe etc) - with a few exceptions such as Tate and Lyle refinery , which did not use rail. Apart from the aformentioned scrap traffic , there was some residual tank traffic to Stratford Market and that was pretty much it.

 

[John Webb]

....I think the North Woolwich museum scheme was canned by Crossrail taking the trackbed. No idea where the stock from the museum ended up.....

It sounds even more unlikely, but you could incorporate Flying Scotsman. When the North Woolwich Museum opened in 1984 Scotsman itself hauled HM The Queen Mother down the line to do the honours. Not the full royal train; just a first class coach I think.

Shame the museum fell on stony ground and has been boarded up long term......

It was permanently closed in 2008 due to to the local authority withdrawing financial support and the Passmore Edwards Museum Trust not being able to afford keeping it open. Visitor numbers, I understand, never reached the levels they hoped for. May seem an odd comment, but it was in a rather out of the way location. It may also, perhaps have come a few years too early before the Docklands Light Railway was serving the area?

I've no idea what will happen to the building. It is Grade II listed - see https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1376229 for the details. It was listed in 1998 while still a museum.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

I think John (W) your above comments relating to the museum aspect have hit the nail on the head as it were. I'm sure Taunton may also agree, in so far as for some of us (enthusiasts) the area, even in it's latter run days were still of interest (being somewhat quirky, if that's a way describe it?) for me at least, for reasons various, it was never going to attract many outsiders as visitors in large enough numbers to make it financially viable. That said, unless some out there are brave enough to try these plans, one never knows. Easy with hindsight to see things clearer I fully admit

 

[RichJF]

... the area, even in it's latter run days were still of interest (being somewhat quirky, if that's a way describe it?) for me at least, for reasons various...

This.

I find the old industrial areas (Beckton, Docklands, East London Line) really fascinating before they were re-generated. The idea of a tiny 2-car DMU trundling along in a somewhat now urban area is wild.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

As I may have touched on elsewhere, my primary interest in the area, Limehouse, Old Ford, Devon's Road, the Docks, the gas works at Bow, etc., is my real interest, for family reasons. The fact I became a life long railwayman was not connected, until (in more recent times) the family 'connection' to the area became more relevant with my own railway interests, and knowledge of same, albeit I was a career L&SWR territory man.

 

[Taunton]

I've always worked in finance of urban design, transport, and heavy infrastructure. I was interested in the Docklands project from even before coming from Somerset's fields to a job in the City of London, and was an early (it seems) pioneer to live here, which seemed just down the road. The whole thing has been a continuous fascination, right through to Crossrail this month. As I write this I can hear a ship hooting coming up river (it's high tide), there's still a surprising amount of traffic there (most of the bulk materials for Canary Wharf developments is brought upriver from a consolidation point at Tilbury). What has been done with Canary Wharf, ending up with the second only to Wall Street world financial centre, is an absolute spectacle. It was one chap's vision, honestly, called Reg Ward. Look him up.

The one remaining rail-connected heavy freight point is Angerstein Wharf, directly across the river from the Silvertown Tramway. All the land behind it and down river on the south side is industrial, so it's not dead yet. Angerstein is a major import point for aggregates, both from other coastal ports and dredged from the North Sea, processing them and dispatching multiple trainloads a day. Its only rail issue is the long way round it faces. I am quite often at Lewisham at 4.30pm, and see a Class 66-hauled heavy aggregates empties train returning from Churchyard Sidings, which are the ones between St Pancras and Kentish Town. It does an extraordinarily convoluted route via Cricklewood, Kew East Curve, the South London Line, Lewisham (where I see it), out through Sidcup to Dartford, back through Woolwich, and to Angerstein. Seems to take a whole shift; only way to do it without reversing/running round. It would actually be quicker to walk via Tower Bridge between the two terminals!

The North Woolwich museum was, to be frank, dead. I went a couple of times, always Saturday mornings I think, and there was never anyone else there. The last connection I had with it was a glass pint beer tankard bought there, with the old Great Eastern Railway logo etched on it, which alas was broken in a dishwasher internal collapse a few years ago

 

[Roger1973]

Another resource that may be of use (and of possible interest to anyone who's not met it) is the National Library of Scotland's map collection.

1957 large scale OS map based at N Woolwich (you can just drag your way around) here. The 'old maps' site which had a slightly larger range of maps viewable has unfortunately gone offline recently.

 

[Recessio]

Another resource that may be of use (and of possible interest to anyone who's not met it) is the National Library of Scotland's map collection.

1957 large scale OS map based at N Woolwich (you can just drag your way around) here. The 'old maps' site which had a slightly larger range of maps viewable has unfortunately gone offline recently.

Was it archived at the Internet Archive Way back machine? Might be able to recover it.

 

[Irascible]

Was it archived at the Internet Archive Way back machine? Might be able to recover it.

It has indeed. https://web.archive.org/web/20211030012834/http://old-maps.co.uk/#/

I find the old industrial areas (Beckton, Docklands, East London Line) really fascinating before they were re-generated. The idea of a tiny 2-car DMU trundling along in a somewhat now urban area is wild.

To be honest I find ( well, found ) the areas to be fascinating *while they were being re-generated* too - like someone had grabbed some buildings from the square mile, inflated them 20% & plonked them all down in random dereliction. Really bizarre atmosphere.

 

[John Webb]

A few photos taken in 1965 when I rode the line out of interest during a Summer holiday. They are from colour slides scanned and put through 'Photoshop' to remove some colour cast.
About to leave North Woolwich:

Remarkable gantry of signals on the approach to Stratford low level:

(The building behind is the original Stratford Market station building. The remains of the station platforms can be seen each side of the line.

Between Silvertown and N Woolwich on the return:

Finally pulling into North Woolwich when two platforms were still in use:

 

[Roger1973]

Also remembered this video on Youtube (it's steam era so possibly slightly off topic) but may be of interest.

 

[30907]

A few photos taken in 1965 when I rode the line out of interest during a Summer holiday. They are from colour slides scanned and put through 'Photoshop' to remove some colour cast.
About to leave North Woolwich:
View attachment 116358
Remarkable gantry of signals on the approach to Stratford low level:
View attachment 116359
(The building behind is the original Stratford Market station building. The remains of the station platforms can be seen each side of the line.

Between Silvertown and N Woolwich on the return:
View attachment 116360
Finally pulling into North Woolwich when two platforms were still in use:
View attachment 116361

Thanks for those - I recall my own first trip in 1962 when most services were still steam, and a second around 1970 when IIRC the quadruple track had gone (and probably the east and west curves to the main line which the gantries signalled - I think the extra distant was for the junction immediately north of the "tunnel" under the GEML.

BTW note the M/Cam unit in the last photo.

 

[Gloster]

Thanks for those - I recall my own first trip in 1962 when most services were still steam, and a second around 1970 when IIRC the quadruple track had gone (and probably the east and west curves to the main line which the gantries signalled - I think the extra distant was for the junction immediately north of the "tunnel" under the GEML.

The London Rail Atlas, 4th Edition (Brown, Ian Allan, 2015) doesn’t give a date for the reduction of four tracks to two, but shows the Stratford Eastern Curve closing on 12-03-1973. The Stratford Southern Curve closed to goods on 03-11-1984, having lost its passenger service 28-10-1940. I don’t have a detailed knowledge of the area (well, really, any knowledge at all), but agree that the extra Distant would probably be for Fork Junction just beyond the mainline.

 

[30907]

The London Rail Atlas, 4th Edition (Brown, Ian Allan, 2015) doesn’t give a date for the reduction of four tracks to two, but shows the Stratford Eastern Curve closing on 12-03-1973. The Stratford Southern Curve closed to goods on 03-11-1984, having lost its passenger service 28-10-1940. I don’t have a detailed knowledge of the area (well, really, any knowledge at all), but agree that the extra Distant would probably be for Fork Junction just beyond the mainline.

Thanks. I've just "inherited" a 2011 copy so will have a look.q

 

[RichJF]

That Met Cam has opened up potential options for stock!

 

[John Webb]

The London Rail Atlas, 4th Edition (Brown, Ian Allan, 2015) doesn’t give a date for the reduction of four tracks to two, but shows the Stratford Eastern Curve closing on 12-03-1973. The Stratford Southern Curve closed to goods on 03-11-1984, having lost its passenger service 28-10-1940. I don’t have a detailed knowledge of the area (well, really, any knowledge at all), but agree that the extra Distant would probably be for Fork Junction just beyond the mainline.

Yes, I can confirm the extra distant was for the split at Fork Junction.

I have to say that when I took the photo it was in appreciation of the range of signals; but I didn't appreciate just what a grouping they were until I got involved with the preservation of the St Alban South box and learnt a lot more about signals as a result!

 

[Taunton]

BTW note the M/Cam unit in the last photo.

That's actually one of the pioneer 79xxx series "Yellow Diamond" Met-Cam cars, rather than the later ubiquitous 101 type. They were deployed across East Anglia in the late 1950s-early 1960s. I think looking at the front window surround the photos may have been taken from one as well. The distinction point is the multiple unit receptacle box, visible under the windscreen corner, as the Yellow Diamond sets were connected by external high level cables, which were later standardised at buffer height.

Regarding "two carriage trains" in the area, there was of course the initial DLR, which had single articulated cars, although operating on some substantial viaducts which have stood it in good stead as patronage has mushroomed way beyond any initial expectation. The two carriage EPB units from the initial electrification of the North Woolwich line, being a standard Southern design, did have more seats than the more modern 313 3-carriage units which later replaced them.