North London Link (pre-electrification)

[RichJF]

I'm in the early stages of planning a small OO gauge layout (working diorama type). I'm hoping to base it loosely on North Woolwich on the North London Link.

My question is: Is there an official record of what DMU types ran on the section (pre 3rd rail)? Was it any Cravens unit or just what was left at Stratford or the like?

TIA

 

[30907]

I associate the line with Cravens twins, but that may be selective memory. Going back to early diesel days, the Lea Valley D/H sets were used, again this being what Stratford had!

 

[Gloster]

A skim through Flickr, search term North Woolwich station , mostly come up with Cravens, but there are other types: one is at Silvertown station. There are also photos on the Disused Stations website, including one that may have been a 103 or 104. It is worth skimming the entries for the other stations on the line on the Disused Stations site. Cravens were probably the norm, but at time of shortage...

 

[Magdalia]

Cravens were the usual DMUs on the Camden Road and Tottenham Hale services in the years immediately prior to electrification. Birmingham RCW units were used for a while in the 1970s. Allocation histories are the starting point as trains would almost always have been units based at Stratford.

Go back before the Lea Valley electrification in 1969 and the story gets more complicated.

 

[Taunton]

A local line for us (I can't write "my local line" any more, as Crossrail has usurped that!).

It was first partially dieselised with 'Yellow Diamond' sets from the pioneer East Anglia pool, but these didn't last for long, then the high-powered Derby-built hydraulic transmission units, as said above they were all Stratford had, until the 1970 Lea Valley electrification, when these were all sent to Finsbury Park. There were some Birmingham RCW sets that replaced these for a while, but the Cravens sets, based at Stratford but shared with Finsbury Park, became standard until the electrification. I saw the last one of these ever, departing North Woolwich on the Friday night before electrification to a detonator fusillade, described separately on a post elsewhere here, as apparently did one or two members.

If you want a real oddball, in 1988 the musician Jean Michel Jarre did a spectacular music concert in the Royal Victoria Dock, before the DLR opened there. Network South East must have been really stuck for how to augment the service to Custom House station, and sent over a couple of 3-car Pressed Steel units from Old Oak Common, to run a shuttle from Stratford, which I saw unloading at Custom House having been packed to the gunwhales. So you could always mimic that!

 

[RichJF]

A local line for us (I can't write "my local line" any more, as Crossrail has usurped that!).

It was first partially dieselised with 'Yellow Diamond' sets from the pioneer East Anglia pool, but these didn't last for long, then the high-powered Derby-built hydraulic transmission units, as said above they were all Stratford had, until the 1970 Lea Valley electrification, when these were all sent to Finsbury Park. There were some Birmingham RCW sets that replaced these for a while, but the Cravens sets, based at Stratford but shared with Finsbury Park, became standard until the electrification. I saw the last one of these ever, departing North Woolwich on the Friday night before electrification to a detonator fusillade, described separately on a post elsewhere here, as apparently did one or two members.

If you want a real oddball, in 1988 the musician Jean Michel Jarre did a spectacular music concert in the Royal Victoria Dock, before the DLR opened there. Network South East must have been really stuck for how to augment the service to Custom House station, and sent over a couple of 3-car Pressed Steel units from Old Oak Common, to run a shuttle from Stratford, which I saw unloading at Custom House having been packed to the gunwhales. So you could always mimic that!

That's a weird titbit of muscial knowledge. I do enjoy Jarre's music & having a family member living in Houston a tie in to his concert over there (in the same vain as the Docklands concert).

I'm not planning to do a replica of the stations on the line, but want to get the "feel" of the diesel backwater.

 

[Magdalia]

It was first partially dieselised with 'Yellow Diamond' sets from the pioneer East Anglia pool, but these didn't last for long, then the high-powered Derby-built hydraulic transmission units, as said above they were all Stratford had, until the 1970 Lea Valley electrification, when these were all sent to Finsbury Park. There were some Birmingham RCW sets that replaced these for a while, but the Cravens sets, based at Stratford but shared with Finsbury Park, became standard until the electrification. I saw the last one of these ever, departing North Woolwich on the Friday night before electrification to a detonator fusillade, described separately on a post elsewhere here, as apparently did one or two members.

The Lea Valley electrification was in 1969. After that the Rolls Royce units were allocated to Finsbury Park, worked on the GN, mainly to Broad Street, but continued to be maintained at Stratford, so they might have sneaked out to North Woolwich. The GN Cravens were a separate fleet from any based at Stratford, also allocated to Finsbury Park, but maintained at Cambridge. Under normal circumstances the GN Cravens did not get to Stratford, so are unlikely to have worked to North Woolwich. The Rolls Royce units were withdrawn at GN inner suburban electrification in 1976 and the GN Cravens fleet was dispersed after GN outer suburban electrification in February 1978, so they become irrelevant after those dates.

 

[Sprinter107]

Stratford also had 3 car class 116 Derby Suburban units, which could also be found working the route to North Woolwich on occasions. You'll see some pictures of those on the route on the excellent Railcar UK website

 

[Irascible]

How far back do you want to go in the area? the old Silvertown tramway goods lnie lasted into the 80s, I think, if you want to add a bit more derelict docklands character.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Referring to a couple of books by David Brennand, 'London's East End Traction' a picture on p80 shows a class 104 at Silvertown, and I understand Heljan are in the throws of producing variations of this class. Also from 'London's East End Railways - part 2' p115/116 examples of Met Camm 101's at Silvertown and North Woolwich. Proper DMU's if I may be so bold

 

[John Webb]

There's also "Branch Lines Around North Woolwich" by J E Connor in the Middleton Press series, published 2001, ISBN 1 901706 65 6. A smaller booklet, published by the Great Eastern Society and the Passmore Edwards Museum Trust (1987, ISBN 0 906123 09 7) when the latter were running the museum at North Woolwich, also has useful information.
I regularly used the line 1967-69 when travelling to my first job at Ilford, but by then did not pay much attention to what class of unit I was travelling in! But I had known the line from 1957 onwards (when it was still steam-operated and freight was still a major traffic) to go train-spotting at Stratford from the main part of Woolwich where I then lived.

 

[Taunton]

I had forgotten about the Derby 116 units, I wonder how much they came down the line. They were certainly allocated to Stratford in the early 1980s, I recall them as principal units on Wickford to Southminster, before its electrification. Colleague in the office used to commute in to Liverpool Street daily on them from Woodham Ferrers, changing at Wickford onto the electric Southend line. More than once they described there was disruption further down that line, so the branch 116 was hijacked to run on to Shenfield to make a connection there.

 

[Sprinter107]

They were transferred from the Western Region around 1969ish, and were swapped with ones that had been transferred from the Western Region to Scotland periodically. I think there was about half a dozen of them at Stratford. They were used on the Braintree branch up until electrification too. They were all sent to Tyseley in the mid 1980s. I remember that the Stratford sets, upon refurbishment had one of the partitions in the DMS vehicles taken down, leaving just 2 open saloons instead of 3, and i think they did a similar thing with the centre trailers. I remember them being immaculately kept.

 

[Taunton]

My guess (only) would be the handful of 116s were transferred from the Western Region for the residual diesel services when Stratford lost its fleet of high-powered Derby hydraulic units on electrification of the Lea Valley, their principal (though not only) usage. The two types were pretty identical looking inside and out, apart from the power train, having followed one another off the Derby production line.

 

[Sprinter107]

I thought the same.

 

[KenA]

WAs North LOndon link ever an official name . I can remember the North LOndon Line that ran from Broad Street to Richmond

 

[ChiefPlanner]

WAs North LOndon link ever an official name . I can remember the North LOndon Line that ran from Broad Street to Richmond

The GLC sponsored the "new" Stratford - Camden Road service as "Crosstown link line" (I think) - using Cravens 2 car sets , which had "new" stations at Homerton and Hackney Wick and Dalston , and worked to get the Richmond - Broad St services (3d rail) to run to North Woolwich , for the times , very innovative - as much of the old East End then was just a bit run down to say the very least. (as indeed was much of London in the mid 1980's)

One of the casulties was Stratford LL - Tottenham Hale , but as we know - that came some decades later, in a different format......

 

[RichJF]

Thanks for the info & help. That area of London has always fascinated me (esp the late 70s/early 80s) with the run down & grimey nature of what is now inner suburban services.

I'll keep a look out for the aforementioned 2 car DMUs for something apppropriate. Can allow a bit of flexibility in rolling stock as I have a bubble car too.

 

[Taunton]

There was a series in Modern Railways magazine in the late 1970s (I think) about "London's Branch Lines", a different one each time, which for one issue covered Stratford to North Woolwich. I don't have it to hand (someone will), but I recall it being illustrated with notably atmospheric black/white photographs, artwork style rather than engineering record shots, principally with one of the dmus in each and the docklands scene all around. It seemed they were taken on a wet winters' day.

 

[Sprinter107]

That series of London Branch Lines were all compiled into a hard backed book of the same name. There are many of the pictures that appeared in the Modern Railways articles with some extras too.

 

[Gloster]

A bit of rooting about came up with London’s Local Railways by Alan A. Jackson (David & Charles, 1978) as a possible source of information. It was republished by Capital Transport in 1999.

 

[John Webb]

A bit of rooting about came up with London’s Local Railways by Alan A. Jackson (David & Charles, 1978) as a possible source of information. It was republished by Capital Transport in 1999.

I've a copy of this book and the classes of DMUs on the North Woolwich line are not clearly stated. There is reference to "Rolls-Royce 3-car diesel sets" being introduced on some workings from the start of 1962, and to "three-car diesel sets still working" in 1974.

From Alan Jackson's book I can also confirm ChiefPlanner's recollection (post#17 above) that the GLC-inspired services from 1979 onwards were called "Crosstown Link Line". Alan Jackson comments that staff shortages (particularly Guards) led to many cancellations in the early days of the service. But again there is no detail of the type of unit used. The photos are mostly of historic interest showing the line before the advent of the diesels and none of any DMU at all.

 

[Sprinter107]

I think the book went into more detail on the branch lines themselves rather than the types of trains that provided the service. The Cravens sets were the most common throughout the 1970s and 1980s, with the 3 car 116s putting in appearances, possibly when no Cravens 105 was available. 3 car 104s also appeared in the 1970s.
The excellent Railcar UK website gives many pictures.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Excellent fares - 66 pence on Crosstown Link Line and 99 pence on the North London Line - off peak "rovers" ........

Yes - Craven sets certainly on the former when I /we travelled.

Girl friend of the time not happy - but that liasion would not have worked long time..........!!!!

 

[Roger1973]

Also quite a lot of scope for river / streetscape if you feel so inclined - part of the line was relatively unusual in running alongside a main road, with a trolleybus / bus service along it. And as an incidental, the trolleybus 'traction poles' were still mostly in place from N Woolwich to Silvertown (and for that matter along a few other streets in Newham Borough) for street lighting well in to the mid 80s.

Was not on every photographer's track, but there are quite a few photos of N Woolwich / Silvertown (with and without trains / buses) if you search on the photo hosting sites.

This and this (neither my photos) are two that come to mind. I can just about remember that part of the world being like the 1979 photo - one of my younger colleagues who I showed that to a few years back took quite a lot of convincing that it was really taken in London.

 

[John Webb]

Also quite a lot of scope for river / streetscape if you feel so inclined - part of the line was relatively unusual in running alongside a main road, with a trolleybus / bus service along it. And as an incidental, the trolleybus 'traction poles' were still mostly in place from N Woolwich to Silvertown (and for that matter along a few other streets in Newham Borough) for street lighting well in to the mid 80s.....

In fact there was a road on each side of the railway line. Besides the main road with the trolleybuses the road the other side served the local factories. It was crossed at intervals by lines from the goods line feeding into the various industries, though many of these were out of use by the end of the 1950s when I got to know the line.

 

[Roger1973]

Out of curiosity (I don't remember seeing any freight on the line) I've found a few pictures of 'BR blue' era freight, e.g. this from 1982 and this (industrial shunter on the Silvertown Tramway in 1989 (again, photos not mine)

Ans at the risk of going off topic, what's a 'trip freight' (as in the class 08 picture) as opposed to a 'freight train'?

An alternative possible tack (although possibly later era than intended here) - I did hear suggestions that the N Woolwich Museum was seriously looking in to getting a section of track (alongside the NLL) operational for at least demonstration runs with preserved steam. Was that ever a serious proposition, or a lot of 'what if'?

 

[PeterC]

WAs North LOndon link ever an official name . I can remember the North LOndon Line that ran from Broad Street to Richmond

I am sure that I have seen the phrase used in publicity but not as a consistent brand name

 

[Gloster]

Ans at the risk of going off topic, what's a 'trip freight' (as in the class 08 picture) as opposed to a 'freight train'?

It is difficult to draw an exact line between a trip freight and a freight train, but here goes. A freight train travels from one place to another, possibly dropping or collecting wagons on the way. A trip freight generally starts from a marshalling/sorting yard or goods station, and goes out to various sidings and stations dropping off, shunting and collecting wagons, before returning to its starting point with those it has collected. Additionally, whereas a train my have a fairly fixed route and timetable, a trip can be adjusted to meet the day’s needs (at its most extreme, it could be just a starting time and ‘work as directed’).

 

[Roger1973]

It is difficult to draw an exact line between a trip freight and a freight train, but here goes. A freight train travels from one place to another, possibly dropping or collecting wagons on the way. A trip freight generally starts from a marshalling/sorting yard or goods station, and goes out to various sidings and stations dropping off, shunting and collecting wagons, before returning to its starting point with those it has collected. Additionally, whereas a train my have a fairly fixed route and timetable, a trip can be adjusted to meet the day’s needs (at its most extreme, it could be just a starting time and ‘work as directed’).

Thanks.