North Downs line electrification

[OxtedL]

How many units are needed to run a normal day's service on the North Down's Line?

A couple of years ago there were 6 diagrams, split between 165 and 166 units. I've not checked the current arrangements, but I suspect they are similar, possibly there might be one more diagram.

Looks like 3 diagrams for each of the Redhill and Gatwick circuits, so that sounds right. Plus one extra for the peak Reading to Shalfords.

I can't tell what that unit does between the peaks, it looks like it attaches to a Gatwick service for two Reading-Gatwick-Reading circuits. I don't know if any of the others would run doubled up.

 

[tsr]

I can't tell what that unit does between the peaks, it looks like it attaches to a Gatwick service for two Reading-Gatwick-Reading circuits. I don't know if any of the others would run doubled up.

GWR units are not generally run in multiple on the NDL, except for recovering failed trains from locations such as Redhill Long/Up Tonbridge Sidings, or formed up to a maximum of 4 coaches in length during special events - and both of those are pretty rare...

 

[Deepgreen]

GWR units are not generally run in multiple on the NDL, except for recovering failed trains from locations such as Redhill Long/Up Tonbridge Sidings, or formed up to a maximum of 4 coaches in length during special events - and both of those are pretty rare...

Indeed, I can only recall one working of more than 3 cars, when a second 3 car unit was conveyed, out of use, on an evening working to Redhill/Gatwick. I've lived on the route for four years and have never seen anything other than 2 (uncommon) or 3 car trains in service.

 

[OxtedL]

That matches my experiences too, cool. So that's 7 units at present.

What does happen to the Shalford unit between the peaks?

 

[greaterwest]

That matches my experiences too, cool. So that's 7 units at present.

What does happen to the Shalford unit between the peaks?

I believe it waits in the platform, I certainly can't see another working for it going to the depot and I usually see 2 units in platform 5 at Reading when I'm there.

The Shalford shuttles used to be 2 coaches until about a year ago.

 

[The Ham]

Looks like 3 diagrams for each of the Redhill and Gatwick circuits, so that sounds right. Plus one extra for the peak Reading to Shalfords.

I can't tell what that unit does between the peaks, it looks like it attaches to a Gatwick service for two Reading-Gatwick-Reading circuits. I don't know if any of the others would run doubled up.

If we are assuming 7 current units, what will it likely be when it goes to 3tph? Will we just see an extension of the the Shalfords (so 9 units) or will the Shalfords be retained (so 10 units)?

The advantage to retaining the Shalford peak hour services is that it provides a spare unit if it is needed (which could be more critical once the 16x's aren't being used in large numbers near Reading).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The Shalford shuttles used to be 2 coaches until about a year ago.

Which was fine when it was all running fine, but if that 2 coach unit was needed to replace a failed unit then it could be "interesting" when it arrived at a busy station and it is normally a 3 coach train.

 

[greaterwest]

Which was fine when it was all running fine, but if that 2 coach unit was needed to replace a failed unit then it could be "interesting" when it arrived at a busy station and it is normally a 3 coach train.

Indeed, which is probably one of the main reasons for making it 3 coaches.

 

[infobleep]

I believe it waits in the platform, I certainly can't see another working for it going to the depot and I usually see 2 units in platform 5 at Reading when I'm there.

The Shalford shuttles used to be 2 coaches until about a year ago.

It waits at Shalford platform during the peak but otherwise doesn't because there are only two platforms at Shalford and it would stop trains being able to pass through.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[OxtedL]

If we are assuming 7 current units, what will it likely be when it goes to 3tph? Will we just see an extension of the the Shalfords (so 9 units) or will the Shalfords be retained (so 10 units)?

I think we discussed the North Downs Line 3tph a bit when the Wessex Route Study came out.

The proposal was worded to be about off peak services, and it noted that

...the third (stopping) service between Reading and Redhill requires an extended 15 minute stop at Guildford to allow other services to overtake.
[from Table B.10 page 150]

This makes sense as an all stations service presently takes 85 minutes (ignoring extended dwell at Guildford) from Redhill to Reading, whereas a semifast is more like 65; 5 minute headways around Wokingham and Reigate are probably very risky/impossible on the current signalling. This seems to be a good reason for the stoppers to not already be stopping everywhere in the off peak.

Adding 10-15 minutes each way to the stoppers means either you have to do some clever interworking with the fasts, or you suddenly need 4 units for the slow circuit. It also locks up platform space at Guildford, which is certainly unavailable in the peaks.

I reckon this means that in the peak the semifasts will continue their current practice of stopping more places (in the Blackwater Valley), both to maintain capacity at these stops but also to slow them down enough that they don't get close to stoppers. This means no loss in peak service to these stops, so no additional Shalfords seem necessary for the time being. Whether the peak 3rd tph runs all the way to Redhill presumably depends on capacity at that end, although the new platform is hopefully addressing the bulk of that.

The study suggests a longer term aspiration for 4tph along the line [Table 6.1 page 123]. With appropriate skip stopping and interworking it seems you could do this with 12 units and no extended dwell at Guildford - which is just as well as trying to platform that could be tricky - but capacity at various points limits this option for now.

That's a bit of a ramble, so I'll finish by noting that the study guesses [Table 5.9 page 110] that electrifying the route saves 7-12 minutes for a stopper or 2-5 minutes for a semifast. That time differential potentially saves the need to overtake at Guildford. I'm very uncertain whether the combined pressure of paths through Guildford and journey times Gatwick to Reading are enough to provide a business case for electric trains, though.

 

[po8crg]

But of the infills possible in 3R land, this is the most minor!

(I'm not counting the Kew curve).

Ellesmere Port to Helsby (if the Stanlow refinery closes).

 

[Mikey C]

Ellesmere Port to Helsby (if the Stanlow refinery closes).

Would Ormskirk to Preston or Southport be considered 3rd rail infills?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Would Ormskirk to Preston or Southport be considered 3rd rail infills?

I think they would but I personally would not extend with 3rd rail. This is one for OHLE and dual voltage units IMHO and then extend when third rail equipment becomes life expired.

But OT sorry - this is North Downs Electrification and these comments are best in this thread. http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=130877

 

[Deepgreen]

Item on the BBC News web site today:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36681121

 

[The Ham]

Item on the BBC News web site today:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36681121

From the above link:

A campaign to electrify 29 miles of railway has seen Surrey County Council (SCC) and Great Western Railway (GWR) join forces to seek government funds for the project.
County Councillor Mike Goodman said the work on the North Downs Line, between Reading and Gatwick Airport, could cost between £80m and £140m.
He said GWR and SCC were working to build a case to make a bid for funds.
The scheme may create 8,000 jobs and a £1.8bn economy boost, Mr Goodman said.

The cabinet member for environment and planning, said electrification of the line would speed up trains and allow people to access jobs in London and at Gatwick.

Tom Pierpoint, from GWR, said "With a relatively modest investment, compared to other projects, it gives us the opportunity to run more services, to run faster journeys between Reading and Guildford and Gatwick Airport, potentially with better trains as well."

He said the line could also link to wider destinations and potentially see trains running from Gatwick through to Oxford.

But he said: "This is something we want to happen but there's no commitment, no guarantee that it's going to happen."

Mr Pierpoint said work could not start realistically until 2019 and would take two to three years to complete, but he said: "The sooner we build this case and the stronger we can make this case, the sooner the improvement will happen."

...so through trains from Oxford are still being considered by GWR.

In reality I assume this is all just putting forward their case for it to be included in the HLOS for CP6.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

In reality I assume this is all just putting forward their case for it to be included in the HLOS for CP6.

It has to be - resources stretched as it is. Still, my glass is half full not half empty take is "People everywhere want electrification - they just want their bit done first.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Battery units first, then take it from there.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Does £80-140million sound like the correct sort of cost for AC along the North Downs?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Probably about right.

If they split the £140m cost across NR/Surrey/Sussex/Berkshire/Kent councils, it equates to approximately £28m a council/party which could and probably should be considered in this day and age a bit of a bargain when you consider the amount of money they could gain and removal of cars/traffic from the roads.

If you add the franchise holders who may want to run over it as well (GW/SW/SN), it could be as little as £17.5m which is peanuts.

 

[deltic08]

Does £80-140million sound like the correct sort of cost for AC along the North Downs?

That is a wide margin of error. Can't they be more accurate?

 

[The Ham]

That is a wide margin of error. Can't they be more accurate?

It may well partly depend on how much of the existing third rail is replaced (and if that has any benefits, bearing in mind that there is a desire to move towards replacing third rail).

 

[59CosG95]

It may well partly depend on how much of the existing third rail is replaced (and if that has any benefits, bearing in mind that there is a desire to move towards replacing third rail).

As far as EMUs are concerned, AC electrification may certainly pose a problem for SWT's fleet, bearing in mind that 456s (2-car EMUs for which pantographs would be impractical and expensive to fit) currently do the Ascot-Guildford route, and out of Reading, the 458/5s (well certinly 531-536) have no pantograph well. If the Ascot-Guildford went back into the hands of a 450, and 458531-536 *somehow* gained pan wells, then maybe AC all the way to Redhill doesn't seem like a bad plan.

3rd rail'll have to replaced between Reading and Wokingham, as well as between Aldershot South and Shalford junctions. Installing OHLE in both Guildford Chalk and St. Catherine's tunnels will certainly be interesting too...

 

[embers25]

It may well partly depend on how much of the existing third rail is replaced (and if that has any benefits, bearing in mind that there is a desire to move towards replacing third rail).

Given 29 miles is the exact distance of missing 3rd rail I would suggest they won't be replacing any and just extended the existing bits to fill in the gaps.

 

[Domh245]

As far as EMUs are concerned, AC electrification may certainly pose a problem for SWT's fleet, bearing in mind that 456s (2-car EMUs for which pantographs would be impractical and expensive to fit) currently do the Ascot-Guildford route, and out of Reading, the 458/5s (well certinly 531-536) have no pantograph well. If the Ascot-Guildford went back into the hands of a 450, and 458531-536 *somehow* gained pan wells, then maybe AC all the way to Redhill doesn't seem like a bad plan.

3rd rail'll have to replaced between Reading and Wokingham, as well as between Aldershot South and Shalford junctions. Installing OHLE in both Guildford Chalk and St. Catherine's tunnels will certainly be interesting too...

By the time that the NDL will have been electrified (if ever) those shiny new 707s (with Dual Voltage capability) will be a well known factor that may hold the answer to the problem.

 

[infobleep]

Probably about right.

If they split the £140m cost across NR/Surrey/Sussex/Berkshire/Kent councils, it equates to approximately £28m a council/party which could and probably should be considered in this day and age a bit of a bargain when you consider the amount of money they could gain and removal of cars/traffic from the roads.

If you add the franchise holders who may want to run over it as well (GW/SW/SN), it could be as little as £17.5m which is peanuts.

Would it actually benefit Kent as aren't all the stations in Berkshire, Surrey and West Sussex.

It only briefly touches West Sussex so would they be that bothered about the scheme.

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[AM9]

Given 29 miles is the exact distance of missing 3rd rail I would suggest they won't be replacing any and just extended the existing bits to fill in the gaps.

This subject has already been discussed in this thread:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=130877

The reasons for any new 3rd rail electrification vs. OLE need to be very strong rather than some notional initial installation/rolling stock argument. 3rd rail is effectively off the table for any new installation outside a subway in tunnels. As for 9 miles, let alone 29 miles, forget it.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

As far as EMUs are concerned, AC electrification may certainly pose a problem for SWT's fleet, bearing in mind that 456s (2-car EMUs for which pantographs would be impractical and expensive to fit) currently do the Ascot-Guildford route, and out of Reading, the 458/5s (well certinly 531-536) have no pantograph well. If the Ascot-Guildford went back into the hands of a 450, and 458531-536 *somehow* gained pan wells, then maybe AC all the way to Redhill doesn't seem like a bad plan.

3rd rail'll have to replaced between Reading and Wokingham, as well as between Aldershot South and Shalford junctions. Installing OHLE in both Guildford Chalk and St. Catherine's tunnels will certainly be interesting too...

Desiros are dual voltage machines, it would take about 12-18 hours to make each one a fully fledged dual voltage machine, so there are no issues there.

IF they choose 25kV OHLE, then it could be installed for the whole length or just between Wokingham station and Ash station and Shalford Junction to Reigate station, as you'll have to allow a distance to ensure that there's an adequate distance to do a changeover from AC to DC & v.v.

That would not affect any operation of the existing 3rd rail stock, whether it be 450/456 or 458.

@infobleep.

Kent should be included in the plans, as with electrification it opens up the opportunity to extend services to Ashford for international connections, also freight from the Channel Tunnel avoiding London, the only caveat being that they'd need to build a flyover to avoid the necessity to runaround the train.

A curve to link the Reading line directly to the Brighton line should be seen as highly desirable as it again avoids time consuming reversals and any delays due to congestion in the station area.

 

[MarkyT]

IF they choose 25kV OHLE, then it could be installed for the whole length or just between Wokingham station and Ash station and Shalford Junction to Reigate station, as you'll have to allow a distance to ensure that there's an adequate distance to do a changeover from AC to DC & v.v.

That would not affect any operation of the existing 3rd rail stock, whether it be 450/456 or 458.

Extended lengths of dual electrification are highly undesirable due to the difference in the earthing strategy between the two systems. Changeover or other dual system zones should, ideally, be as short as possible. Reading - Wokingham, at 11km, is too long I think. Whilst the 3km or so though Guildford to Shalford Junction might be more acceptable for a dual system, the 3rd rail actually extends a further 10+km to Ash Vale before turning off to Aldershott, making that unnacceptable in my view.

If the whole line was electrified AC, say to enable heavy freight haulage, with a flyover at Redhill and some kind of additional capacity or grade separation around Guildford, then Waterloo - Reading trains would have to be dual system, switching to AC at Wokingham for the run into Reading, as would stock for Guildford - Ascot.

A curve to link the Reading line directly to the Brighton line should be seen as highly desirable as it again avoids time consuming reversals and any delays due to congestion in the station area.

Not really. Redhill is one of the busiest stations on the line, a major destination being conveniently situated near the local town centre, and a useful interchange hub. From a transport planning perspective avoiding this station would be a mistake, and from a purely commercial point of view I doubt the (say) seven minute journey time saving would attract sufficient extra Gatwick / Brighton line business to offset those lost at Redhill.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

If it goes ahead (AC) could a good chunk of SWT's Reading-Waterloo route get converted to AC either as part of the project or as a follow-on project?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

It's a mess thanks to the re-tractioning of the Class 455 fleet and the failure to prepare the ex Class 460 vehicles used to re-form into Class 458 units, or indeed, 15 years ago, the failure to actually reject the Class 458 units and procure an equivalent number of Desiro units.

It doesn't matter what way you do dual-voltage, either GWR is going to have to switch en-route to accommodate the DC sections, or SWT is going to have to switch en-route to use the route at all, assuming complete 25kV AC OLE provision.

If we're going to get on with DC to AC conversion, we're going to have to accept there will be lots of DC to AC changeovers happening with dual voltage units, so I see no good reason why we shouldn't use AC on the NDL and use dual-voltage units.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If it goes ahead (AC) could a good chunk of SWT's Reading-Waterloo route get converted to AC either as part of the project or as a follow-on project?

Yes, but it will be rolling stock strategy dependent. Class 458s will be so close to being life expired it'll need to fit in with their eventual replacement. The oldest units will be 21 years at the start of CP6, and there's very unlikely to be any movement to wire Reading to Waterloo in either CP6 or CP7, which takes you to CP8 at the earliest, and the oldest unit is 31 years old.

If you then add in 2 to 3 years for electrification and testing works, the oldest units will be almost 35 years old by the time they head off to Alstom to be have 25kV AC capability added.

The more immediate priority is likely to be the push to Exeter from Basingstoke and then back to Farnborough before the Class 158 and Class 159 fleets are life expired (and as a push to remove diesel stock from central London for emissions reasons). The oldest of those are 27 years old now and would ideally be replaced in the next 10 years, though pushing through to 40 years is likely.

 

[swt_passenger]

As far as EMUs are concerned, AC electrification may certainly pose a problem for SWT's fleet, bearing in mind that 456s (2-car EMUs for which pantographs would be impractical and expensive to fit) currently do the Ascot-Guildford route

That is already known to be a temporary step in the cascade process. Once the Waterloo extensions are completed the 456s will all be in use on main suburban 10 car services (4+4+2), and the Guildford - Ascot service will by default have to go back to something more suitable, such as 450s.