North aims to control rail network

[deltabravo]

From http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news.../north_aims_to_control_rail_network_1_4048880

Transport bosses are aiming to create a locally-controlled rail network for the entire North of England, with plans to take over trans-Pennine routes also set to incorporate commuter lines across Yorkshire, the North-West, North-East and beyond.


Kieran Preston, director-general of West Yorkshire’s transport authority Metro, has told the Yorkshire Post his group has been locked in talks with the Department for Transport (DfT) for several months over radical proposals that would see control of the entire Northern and TransPennine rail networks devolved to local authorities in the North.

Mr Preston believes local control over franchises will enable a “step-change” in passenger services by allowing local authorities to leverage investment for newer and longer carriages and further electrification of lines, as well as better tailoring rail contracts to suit the needs of local people.

“We’re talking about a rail network for the North,” Mr Preston said. “We can take control of our destiny and shape our railways.

“This is about bringing a local focus and passion back to our railways. We have levers we can pull locally and a clear transport plan.”

Yesterday the Yorkshire Post revealed council leaders in Leeds have been holding talks with their counterparts in Greater Manchester over using a Government initiative to devolve power to major cities to take joint control of the trans-Pennine route.

But Mr Preston said that initiative is part of a wider plan to take control of the entire north-of-England network currently run by First TransPennine and Northern Rail.

Combined, the networks cover lines stretching from Nottingham up through Yorkshire to Newcastle, and west as far as Crewe, Manchester, Liverpool and Carlisle.

“When these contracts last came up for renewal, we said then that it was not appropriate for them to be negotiated 200 miles away in Whitehall,” Mr Preston said.

“There’s an opportunity to renew both in 2014, and we’ve been holding detailed discussions with the DfT for some months on behalf of transport executives across the North about taking control.”

The benefits of contracts being let by local transport bodies as opposed to bureaucrats in Whitehall would be significant, he said.

“If you look at what’s happened in Scotland and Wales following devolution, and at Transport for London, it has made a massive difference, because they bring that local focus,” Mr Preston said.

Once in charge of their own railways, local transport leaders would begin working on a wish-list of ideas to improve services.

“New rolling stock is hugely important,” Mr Preston said. “We want to look at replacing the 400 trains across the North that are more than 30 years old.

“We would be able to borrow against future revenue and also pull in funding from other sources to invest. We could make use of new 15-year rail contracts to take a really long-term view.

“And as the franchisor, we would be talking directly with Network Rail about projects such as the electrification of lines in places like Calderdale and Harrogate.”

The DfT has reacted positively, and is expected to launch a formal consultation early next year.

A spokesman said: “The Government is developing a range of options to transfer powers away from Whitehall. We have had very constructive discussions with stakeholders across the North on how they could have a greater role in new rail franchises.”

 

[YorkshireBear]

Wow that is radical! So does it mean we get more money or we choose where to spend it as we know better than whitehall?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

A sign of things to come ? Will suitable Government finance be forthcoming ?

 

[Greenback]

David Cameron has often said that he believes that decisions should be made locally, so we'll see what happens next - actions speak louder than words!

 

[tbtc]

From http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/...work_1_4048880

“New rolling stock is hugely important,” Mr Preston said. “We want to look at replacing the 400 trains across the North that are more than 30 years old

Since Pacers are only mid-80s, I'd like to know which four hundred trains that are over thirty years old in northern England Mr Preston has in mind.

(if the BBC made such a mistake then I can imagine the frothy hysteria amongst some...)

As for the main point, its all about money, not where the decision is made. If Whitehall want to spend money on rail in northern England then thats great. Devolving the decision to someone in Manchester/Leeds (without giving them any additional spending money) won't make any difference.

Also, note the irony in having "local" control over something stretching from Nottingham to Carlisle.

 

[Ivo]

Sounds good The kind of announcement the North needs after things like the reduction of the Northern Hub proposal. Something tells me a similar project, if announced for the South, would be hit for six - and with good reason...

If the BBC made such a mistake then I can imagine the frothy hysteria amongst some...

Hmm...

 

[WestCoast]

Also, note the irony in having "local" control over something stretching from Nottingham to Carlisle.

Considering the debates between the North West, North East and Yorkshire about 'who is the worst off' in the rolling stock stakes on this forum, it sounds like a recipe for disaster...

In seriousness, this is warmly welcomed...

 

[tbtc]

Considering the debates between the North West, North East and Yorkshire about 'who is the worst off' in the rolling stock stakes on this forum, it sounds like a recipe for disaster...

In seriousness, this is warmly welcomed...

Unless they had the decisions made right on the Yorkshire/Lancashire border, by junction 22 of the M62, where the Pennine Way crosses the motorway then there are going to be accusations of bias

Look at the local news coverage - Sheffield people think local news is Leeds biased, Carlisle people think local news is Newcastle biased...

The messy nature of railway routes mean that the current PTEs aren't very well equipped to deal with rail services (there is only one train service an hour in one direction that runs wholly within South Yorkshire), so there is a lot of logic in having one organisation that makes decisions on a regional nature (without worrying about services which cross PTE borders). However, the plan for regional assemblies was dismissed, is there a scope for a "north-wide" organisation? It sounds a nice idea, but how would it work?

(and, without additional funds, it'd just be a talking shop)

 

[WestCoast]

Look at the local news coverage - Sheffield people think local news is Leeds biased, Carlisle people think local news is Newcastle biased...

Yes, Liverpudlians think the North West news is biased towards Manchester. In Lancashire, people think its biased towards Liverpool and Manchester.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The messy nature of railway routes mean that the current PTEs aren't very well equipped to deal with rail services (there is only one train service an hour in one direction that runs wholly within South Yorkshire), so there is a lot of logic in having one organisation that makes decisions on a regional nature (without worrying about services which cross PTE borders). However, the plan for regional assemblies was dismissed, is there a scope for a "north-wide" organisation? It sounds a nice idea, but how would it work?

That's if you currently have a PTE! Not everyone is covered by one don't forget.

I've argued for one super-PTE in the past, but it was argued against with 'x' area would be favoured over 'y'.

 

[Lampshade]

Look at the local news coverage - Sheffield people think local news is Leeds biased, Carlisle people think local news is Newcastle biased...

Can't comment on Sheffield/Leeds but since Border TV was axed and local news produced by Tyne-Tees, Carlisle has certainly lost out. Same with Granada/NW Tonight, you wouldn't have thought there was life outside Liverpool and Manchester respectively.

 

[Yew]

So we could end up with a Northern England PTE essensially?

if this happened in more districts, could we see a system similar to BR's regions?

 

[Old Timer]

What a complete dog's dinner that would turn out to be.

Transfer the sort of Council inefficiencies you get now into a railway network, which would inevitably be held ransom to the varying and conflicting demands of local Councillors as a most Council matters, add in the usual Local Governmental style of management and here we go.

Ye Gods, you really couldn't make it up.

 

[swt_passenger]

Sounds good The kind of announcement the North needs after things like the reduction of the Northern Hub proposal.

As discussed in the thread at the time, the Northern Hub proposal hasn't been reduced. One particular local politician decided to put that about, but the Minister had only said that it was all having to be looked at in detail, (just like Thameslink and Crossrail were), and that it wasn't an all or nothing scheme.

 

[John55]

"What a complete dog's dinner that would turn out to be.

Transfer the sort of Council inefficiencies you get now into a railway network, which would inevitably be held ransom to the varying and conflicting demands of local Councillors as a most Council matters, add in the usual Local Governmental style of management and here we go.

Ye Gods, you really couldn't make it up."

Strange that you think the influence of local authorities is so awful when you consider that 2 of the 3 best performing TOCs are under the control of the Merseyside ITA and TfL. Perhaps you really think the DfT is the shining light of efficient management.

 

[route:oxford]

Since Pacers are only mid-80s, I'd like to know which four hundred trains that are over thirty years old in northern England Mr Preston has in mind.

By the time the franchise is awarded to TfN (Transport for Northerners) in 2014 , tenders produced for new rolling stock and that stock actually built...

It'll be between 2016&2018 the new stock arrives - when the various tranches of Pacers will be 30.

 

[dstrat]

Remember people, Cameron and cronies are Thatcherites. Since Thatcher, the rhetoric has commonly been to bleat on about how locally run is better....but actuality has been to cripple local government.

Would be nice to have the £20 mill that Northern made last year go into better services as opposed to Serco's fat cat pockets...perhaps actually making some investments into the rolling stock that is direly needed in areas ???

 

[Old Timer]

Strange that you think the influence of local authorities is so awful when you consider that 2 of the 3 best performing TOCs are under the control of the Merseyside ITA and TfL. Perhaps you really think the DfT is the shining light of efficient management.

Oh absolutely not, any form of Governmental (National/Local control) is unwelcome.

I would like however to understand precisely what level of control is being talked about though.

MerseyRail is let alone to operate, but this to me sounds very much like a push towards a hand on the tiller, and bearing in mind the diverse number of diiferent local authorities, you can see already who is going to get the "whip hand", and I can hardly see the likes of Cumbria taking precedence against GM or WY, can you ?

I am afraid I can just see yet another tier of "management" that will want its finger in the pie, strategically if not operationally.

Remember people, Cameron and cronies are Thatcherites. Since Thatcher, the rhetoric has commonly been to bleat on about how locally run is better....but actuality has been to cripple local government.

Rhetoric does not cripple, what is not arguable is the fact that it was the last three Labour Goverments who actually took power away to the centre, hence why there is now so much talk of power being given back

Not such an anti-Tory rant now is it ?

 

[WatcherZero]

Their talking about local commisioning not operation. Specifying what services you desire in the contract and awarding it, not day-to-day oversight and regulation.

 

[Old Timer]

Their talking about local commisioning not operation. Specifying what services you desire in the contract and awarding it, not day-to-day oversight and regulation.

OK but how does that much change from what we have now ?

I am sorry to appear negative but in the Centro/BR days it was not actually clear WHO was running what. Centro wanted and got ridiculous things such as open stations which allowed the scum, ne'er do wells and scrotes of the West Midlands to use the network as an expanded playground. They wanted no ticket checks at stations and insisted this was not done thus encouraging a culture of fare evasion which has never really been tackled since.

We then had the Central TOU (a bit like a TOC now) who had their own agenda and priorities, leaving us operators at the sharp end not entirley clear who managed and controlled what, even to the extent that at incidents we even started to get TOU representatives turning up trying to take over.

I can see that a metropolitan area may wish to have a co-ordinated transport plan, but as with the West Midlands, who will pay for it and who will feel that they are paying more than they get in return ?

Rate payers are extraordinarily hard to get money from, and at local Councillor level there are all sorts of differing agendas that get into these things.

Personally I think there are a lot of stages to go yet but I am happy to be proven wrong if it all works, previous experience however has not been good.

 

[tbtc]

Remember people, Cameron and cronies are Thatcherites. Since Thatcher, the rhetoric has commonly been to bleat on about how locally run is better....but actuality has been to cripple local government

As an example, it was announced recently that the coalition would give Sheffield some patronising sounding status ("Super City"?) which would allow the council to keep revenue raised through Business Rates (instead of getting a bulk grant) and give them the autonomy to decide how money was spent in the city...

...which sounded great (LOCALISM!) until it was pointed out that the overall council budget would actually be *lower*...

...so whilst "freedom to make decisions" (for rail in northern England) sounds great, it all depends on the financial powers that go with it. Making decisions "locally" sounds lovely, but its not always very efficient (when there's no more money to spend).

 

[TUC]

But would it really be a North of England PTE or would it be a Leeds/Manchester/Liverpool-controlled PTE with them throwing scraps to the rest of the north?

 

[Gareth]

Regardless, I'm not going for it. The ITAs are for metropolitan transport. That's things like buses and commuter rail, as well as ferries in Liverpool. One huge northern ITA would not make sense in this regard.

I'm guessing though, that the ITAs want some influence on DoT decisions in regards to things like franchises and rolling stock.

 

[dstrat]

Rhetoric does not cripple, what is not arguable is the fact that it was the last three Labour Goverments who actually took power away to the centre, hence why there is now so much talk of power being given back

Not such an anti-Tory rant now is it ?

Rhetoric does not cripple, but their actions do.

Ha, it's well known how much Blair/Brown were Thatcherites and certainly admirers of said policy - proven through their actions. You can think of their actions as being the continum of policy 15, 20 years preceding.

So unfortunately you are bashing your Tory views as opposed to supporting them I'm afraid

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

That's if you currently have a PTE! Not everyone is covered by one don't forget.

There is a considerble amount of area between the Merseyrail and the TfGM administrative areas that is covered by Lancashire County Council, when considering joint-participation measures by those two PTE areas.

 

[kylemore]

Yeh up here in Scotland we're falling over ourselves to return our rail powers to Westminster - new rolling stock, re-opened lines, electrification - we're not worthy!
Seriously though it might be right to be cautious, UK local authorities vary but some are truly terrible and are generally of low quality when it comes to planning public transport. Cambridge Guided Busway/ Edinburgh Trams - nuff said!

 

[Old Timer]

Ha, it's well known how much Blair/Brown were Thatcherites and certainly admirers of said policy - proven through their actions. You can think of their actions as being the continum of policy 15, 20 years preceding.

So unfortunately you are bashing your Tory views as opposed to supporting them I'm afraid

Same old tired rhetoric, its so predictable

 

[route:oxford]

Do people hate Mrs T because she was a women, or because she was strong?

I always thought she was magnificent.

 

[northwichcat]

Since Pacers are only mid-80s, I'd like to know which four hundred trains that are over thirty years old in northern England Mr Preston has in mind.

If it's changed to '400 carriages which will be over 30 years old when the next franchise(s) are awarded' then it's more accurate.

Northern will have 278 carriages over 30 years old. (The 144s will be just under 30 years old.)

He may also be counting the 1978-1979 build 507s and 508s which make up 177 carriages in total but Merseyrail has been awarded as a self contained franchise by Merseytravel until 2028, so shouldn't be counted for this purpose.

 

[tbtc]

If it's changed to '400 carriages which will be over 30 years old when the next franchise(s) are awarded' then it's more accurate.

Northern will have 278 carriages over 30 years old. (The 144s will be just under 30 years old.)

He may also be counting the 1978-1979 build 507s and 508s which make up 177 carriages in total but Merseyrail has been awarded as a self contained franchise by Merseytravel until 2028, so shouldn't be counted for this purpose.

That sounds more plausible for where he got this strange figure from. It doesn't bode well if the guy suggesting this big change can't differentiate between a carriage and a whole train though (or is this just bad journalism?)...

 

[button_boxer]

It doesn't bode well if the guy suggesting this big change can't differentiate between a carriage and a whole train though (or is this just bad journalism?)...

Seems pretty standard in these kinds of press releases. "nearly 250 new carriages" sounds more impressive than 20 new trains (of 12 carriages each).