no netword card - fined

[stingray]

I travelled with my Netword Card but was unable to find it in my bag on the gate, got fined. Refused to look my name up on the computer / system. Appealed in writing, saying I did have a valid Network Card, sent photocopy. (As I was travelling for a job interview and did not want to be late I had no choice but to pay the fine)

They have refused the appeal. What can I do now?

 

[NSEFAN]

Just to clarify, you were given a penalty fare, not a fine, is that correct? A fine is issued by courts, but the £20 penalty fare is issued by rail staff on trains and stations.

If you can post more details about the journey and train company involved, then other users on here may be able to advise you of what to do. I'd imagine at this stage the easiest thing is to just pay the penalty fare? The rules for railcards say that they must be carried when using the discount, and shown to a member of staff when they ask for it. Strictly speaking, you were in the wrong because of that, I'm afraid.

 

[Mojo]

If it was a Penalty fare which was issued then this was the correct course of action by the Inspector. A Penalty fare is a higher than normal fare which is due when a customer is travelling without a valid ticket (or supporting documentation) and where the Inspector believes there was no intent to avoid the fare due.

Consequently, as your appeal has already been rejected then your best course of action would be to pay the Penalty fare before any additional charges are imposed, or legal action is taken due to non-payment of said Penalty fare.
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Just to clarify, you were given a penalty fare, not a fine, is that correct? A fine is issued by courts, but the £20 penalty fare is issued by rail staff on trains and stations.

The Penalty fare is not always £20; on TfL services it is £80 (reduced to £40 if paid on the spot or within 21 days); and on National Rail services it is twice the single fare or £20 whichever is the higher.

 

[island]

Unfortunately you do not have any valid grounds to appeal. One of the conditions of the Network Railcard, which you accepted by signing the application form, is that it must be carried with you on all rail journeys and shown when you are inspected. Sending it later is not any good, not least because the card does not have a photo so there is no way of knowing that you did not, say, lend the card to a mate for the day.

If you have not already paid the Penalty Fare, you should do so at the earliest opportunity in order to avoid the cost escalating or being prosecuted for failing to show a valid ticket.

 

[furlong]

Well, having lost the appeal and assuming you have now paid the debt, you could try writing a nice letter to the train company's customer services department and find out whether or not they like you!

The stated main aim of the existing policy is to protect honest passengers and as such there is already provision for holders of season tickets who occasionally leave their ticket at home. Could there not also be similar provision for holders of railcards?

You could write to the Department for Transport to ask if they would consider reviewing the rules for penalty fares schemes. The environment has changed since 2002 (smartcards, mobile ticketing, ToD, Northern's non-PF scheme, agency gateline staff etc.) and perhaps a case could be made for a small consultation and some updates to see that both honest passengers and operators continue to be protected in situations not fully envisaged when the original rules were drawn up.

 

[swt_passenger]

The stated main aim of the existing policy is to protect honest passengers and as such there is already provision for holders of season tickets who occasionally leave their ticket at home. Could there not also be similar provision for holders of railcards?

Not at all likely for Network cards, because as someone already pointed out they do not have photos...

 

[furlong]

Not at all likely for Network cards, because as someone already pointed out they do not have photos...

Would that really make any material difference to losses from fraudulent use? I doubt it. I'm sure there are good reasons it's never been considered necessary to link network cards to a photocard.

 

[jon0844]

I guess nobody considers it such a problem to share a network railcard, as only one person could use it at once (bar of course, people travelling together). It's also available to anyone, whereas a YPRC has restrictions based on age or if you're studying - and so it can't be shared around.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....The stated main aim of the existing policy is to protect honest passengers and as such there is already provision for holders of season tickets who occasionally leave their ticket at home. Could there not also be similar provision for holders of railcards?....

Aside from the photocard issue.....

Season ticket holders have potentially paid thousands of pounds upfront for future train travel (over a set period of time). Railcard holders have paid £30 to save money (probably more than the £30) on an unknown number of future journeys (over a set period of time) that they are not committed to.

Season ticket data is held at a local level. Railcard data is held in a central database far removed from the railway outlets.

Realistically, it is not going to happen for Railcard holders anytime soon, especially while they have no photocard.

 

[stingray]

many thanks for the replies. I paid the penalty fare (double anytime single I think) at the gate with my debit card, and as this has exactly the same name as my Network Card I have proof that it was not 'lent to a mate'. I shall try writing to customer relations at Southern Rail.

 

[maniacmartin]

as this has exactly the same name as my Network Card I have proof that it was not 'lent to a mate'

Can you explain this, because I don't follow the logic.

 

[jon0844]

It doesn't matter anyway. The requirement is to have the card with you, pure and simple.

 

[Eagle]

and as this has exactly the same name as my Network Card I have proof that it was not 'lent to a mate'.

No it isn't. This hypothetical mate could have the Network Card on him, and presented it when showing his ticket, and as you aren't IDed when you do that he would have gotten away with it.

 

[Flamingo]

It doesn't matter anyway. The requirement is to have the card with you, pure and simple.

/\/\/\

Wot he said.

They have refused the appeal. What can I do now?

What you need to do next is dry your eyes and move on, you were in the wrong on this occasion.

 

[jon0844]

Yup, I guess the phrase 'man up' applies here.

Ultimately, it was a mistake of the OPs own making - but perhaps having some last minute nerves for a job interview, things like this happen. £20 isn't a massive deal, so far easier to put it behind you and just remember the card from now on.

I am sure it could have been a lot worse, if travelling a really long way and being stung for a whole new ticket at a walk-up/anytime rate.

 

[island]

many thanks for the replies. I paid the penalty fare (double anytime single I think) at the gate with my debit card, and as this has exactly the same name as my Network Card I have proof that it was not 'lent to a mate'. I shall try writing to customer relations at Southern Rail.

You can try, and you might get thrown some vouchers. But as mentioned above, the name matching means nothing.

 

[Deerfold]

Yup, I guess the phrase 'man up' applies here.

Ultimately, it was a mistake of the OPs own making - but perhaps having some last minute nerves for a job interview, things like this happen. £20 isn't a massive deal, so far easier to put it behind you and just remember the card from now on.

I am sure it could have been a lot worse, if travelling a really long way and being stung for a whole new ticket at a walk-up/anytime rate.

I don't think the OP has said how much their penalty fare was.

 

[jon0844]

Ah, true.

 

[pinguini]

OP has stated he paid twice the anytime single as the PF, so likely to be more than £20

 

[sarahj]

Ahh, the classic, can you check your database, as though we have access to a massive database of all network cards, yp cards etc. esp as some cards are bought on the day. Plus I'm sure there would be some data protection issues as well.

Its very simple, no network card with you, no discount. Must be carried at all times during the journey. If asked to produce it during your journey and cannot, its an excess or p fare. Its in the T&C, says so also on the ticket. Means next time you will remember it, or keep it in a safe place, ie next to your ticket.

 

[CNash]

Ahh, the classic, can you check your database, as though we have access to a massive database of all network cards, yp cards etc. esp as some cards are bought on the day. Plus I'm sure there would be some data protection issues as well.

I can tell by your scorn that you think it's ludicrous to assume that the TOCs would be using a modern computer database system for tracking railcards of all types. The thing is... most people would think that it isn't such a far-fetched notion. Database systems have become so commonplace that the thought of an organisation not using one for this kind of purpose is truly ludicrous. And given that a lot of railcards (especially YP ones) are bought via the internet, you really can't blame the passengers for thinking that there is some kind of centralised database.

As for your excuse of "some cards being bought on the day" - assuming that the database can be updated via an internet connection (most can), then this shouldn't be a problem at all, assuming that ticket office staff are on the ball.

Now, I'm not saying that there aren't some problems with this scenario - ticket checking staff not having access to reliable internet connections, for example, and there's still the issue of having to prove that you haven't just lent your physical railcard to a mate for the day, database or no. But these are not insurmountable problems. My point is that your apparent attitude - that such a database couldn't possibly exist or work - is misguided and defeatist.

 

[jon0844]

A database could be set up (one day I am sure it will be, when all rail staff have always connected devices) but, for now, what a waste of money when the rule is you must carry the card.

That simple rule saves millions in development, deployment and giving staff new devices to carry.

 

[CNash]

Indeed; I'm aware of the financial problems with implementing such a system. My point, though, is that people expect this hypothetical system to exist already ("after all," those who bought their railcards online will surmise, "there must be records kept of my purchase, and all of those personal details I had to fill in, surely?"), and are bemused when they are told that it doesn't.

 

[stingray]

My credit card that I paid the penalty fare (double a single so £53) was used with my CC which is in the same as my Network Card.

Frankly the return fares from my home station are usually only about a pound or two difference using a card (sometimes not at all) than a special advance fare.

I shall write to customer relations.

 

[NSEFAN]

Indeed; I'm aware of the financial problems with implementing such a system. My point, though, is that people expect this hypothetical system to exist already ("after all," those who bought their railcards online will surmise, "there must be records kept of my purchase, and all of those personal details I had to fill in, surely?"), and are bemused when they are told that it doesn't.

They probably expect "the railways" have one accounting and finance department, so cross checking the railcard database should be easy peasy, right?

 

[pinguini]

What I've never understood is why railcards aren't scanned Clubcard style, to give managers more of an insight into travelling behaviours

 

[jon0844]

Indeed; I'm aware of the financial problems with implementing such a system. My point, though, is that people expect this hypothetical system to exist already ("after all," those who bought their railcards online will surmise, "there must be records kept of my purchase, and all of those personal details I had to fill in, surely?"), and are bemused when they are told that it doesn't.

I think someone who buys a railcard online and gets a plastic one with or without a photo printed on it, might expect it to be all part of a linked-up database. They might expect the card has an NFC chip to be scanned quickly etc.

For those who get a railcard printed at their local station on paper ticket stock, and fill in an application form on a bit of paper that will be sent in and processed days or weeks later (and potentially lost completely) then I'd say a lot wouldn't expect any such clever system.

I do think there should be a national database of railcards, season tickets etc - and expect there will be one day. I also expect all devices to be 'connected' which will solve a lot of other problems - and for there to be loads of problems in getting such a change implemented.

 

[LexyBoy]

If smartcards ever take off then Railcards can be linked to them – no worries about forgetting it then. Of course, you’ll still get “I forgot my ticket, but it’s all on the database so can you check it? Just scan my ID implant and you’ll see it’s the right name…”

 

[Harpers Tate]

Regardless of the rules and attitudes involved, it will do you no harm whatsoever to write to the TOC involved explaining and asking. If you expect nothing back, you are unlikely to be disappointed and you may, just, be pleasantly surprised. There is only one way to find out which.

 

[jon0844]

If smartcards ever take off then Railcards can be linked to them – no worries about forgetting it then. Of course, you’ll still get “I forgot my ticket, but it’s all on the database so can you check it? Just scan my ID implant and you’ll see it’s the right name…”

There would be nothing to stop you loading your railcard details onto your NFC enabled phone too (and that could be in addition to having a physical card too).

That could then be read, including a digital photograph of the correct owner by staff with ordinary smartcard readers.

My passport contains my photo in digital form, which I can read on my phone right now (not all the data, of course, as the biometric data is encrypted) - so a railcard would be easy to do.

Only downside is that to read a passport on my phone, you're looking at around 10 seconds (but it seems quicker when passport offices check, so it might just be my app).