New TPE Train Discussion

[jimm]

Aren't Class 67s 125mph? (I know they're diesel)

Theoretically yes, and one hit 140mph+ under test on a high-speed line in Spain but they have never been used in service at 125mph and the track engineers would probably have a fit if they were allowed to, due to the axle loadings of 22.5 tonnes.

The Class 68 is about four tonnes lighter at 86 tonnes but that still makes them more than four tonnes heavier than a Class 91. Wikipedia suggests the Class 88s are also expected to weigh in at 86 tonnes.

 

[jopsuk]

I believe you could easily fit 125mph gubbins within a 66/88 bodyshell with a new aerodynamic nose. Its already larger than a class 91 which fits them in and an 88 is 90% as capable as a class 92 despite being only 2/3rds the weight.

125mph "gubbins"? Eh? The only "gubbins" needed is different gearing and ideally not being too heavy.

As for aero, the French have happily used these with Corail coaches, no fancy DVT on the back, at 200km/h for years- even some of DC version are rated for 200km/h

 

[Bletchleyite]

I love the way that carries 3 generations of the SNCF branding...

 

[Topgun333]

Presumably this means that TPE will be using the Chat Moss line for its Liverpool services rather than the CLC?

 

[po8crg]

Presumably this means that TPE will be using the Chat Moss line for its Liverpool services rather than the CLC?

That had already been announced; yes. The CLC will be getting a Northern Connect service (to Leeds via Manchester and Bradford on class 195s) as a replacement for the TPE services.

 

[Topgun333]

That had already been announced; yes. The CLC will be getting a Northern Connect service (to Leeds via Manchester and Bradford on class 195s) as a replacement for the TPE services.

Thanks!

 

[kevconnor]

Presumably this means that TPE will be using the Chat Moss line for its Liverpool services rather than the CLC?

That was already a given. The north TPE services would have to cross the throat to get to the CLC line, something the Ordsall Chord is looking to eliminate and the CLC line is not accessable from Victoria.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Thinking ahead a few years when the overhead electrification spreads east...
then the class 68's could be replaced by class 88's.

However what would you then do with the class 68's? Export them overseas? It's not as though we're short of diesel loco's in this country so its hard to see how they could find alternative work. Freight as a whole is in decline and there doesn't seem to be any real growth in Intermodal at the present time.
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Because most haulage men don't wibble about hanging out the window and just quietly build up mileage. Not many of my seven miles are on PVs, but still enjoyed it. Can hear plenty on Chiltern and if the stock puts off idiot children it's a good thing. Still, don't miss an easy dig eh?

What about haulage women? And why would loco hauled stock put off children? Just curious.
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Using locos and driving trailers has the same result but, assuming the locomotives have sufficient power, makes it a lot easier to provide additional vehicles in the rake should traffic increase sufficiently.

This is also based on the assumption that it would still be possible to manufacture the same design some years after the initial production run. And in the case of the Pendolino's and the class 378's it's been proven beyond doubt that it's possible to insert additional carriages into an existing EMU so in this case LHCS doesn't offer an advantage over an EMU / DMU.

 

[Greybeard33]

That had already been announced; yes. The CLC will be getting a Northern Connect service (to Leeds via Manchester and Bradford on class 195s) as a replacement for the TPE services.

No, the Liverpool-Leeds via Calder Valley Northern Connect will run on the Chat Moss line via Victoria. The CLC is getting a Northern Connect service to Manchester Airport via Piccadilly - see https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/travel/northern-connect.

 

[RichmondCommu]

A 67 pulling a 225 can't attain 125....

Is that because 225 is greater than 125?

 

[HSTEd]

Just wait until the idea of a new 125mph electric locomotive order spreads to the general forum population.
The suggestions of converting the entire Mark 3 trailer fleet and replacing all the 91s will go on for years.

Never mind that they should just build Class 89 copies.
The Badger is love, the Badger is life.

 

[Fudgefrog]

Further searching has produced this artists impression from "El Correo" which shows 2 different designs.

Is the design in the background for the driving trailer of the loco-hauled sets?

Look at the unit in the background and compare the (lack of) front passenger windows, and single door, to the pictures of the Northern EMU stock.

While it's entirely possible this is for stock that was proposed, but wasn't taken up, my guess is the loco hauled stock will be designed to appear closer to the 185s than the AT300s.

If the LHS is going on to the Middlesbrough and Scarborough lines pretty quickly, it wouldn't surprise me if they were designed to be more commuter/regional in design and layout than intercity.

A shame if that's the case, because I really like design of the TPE EMUs (nicer than the AT300s) and I'm really not keen on the Northern Civity units.

Anyone else wonder if the choice to use LHS is directly related to the costs involved in using DMUs in the transpennine region? Given the costs of operating the large 185 engines, the cost of a high powered loco might not actually cost that differently. It would also be much easier to reform a set into a 6 or 7 carriage 'unit' than otherwise, should they need temporary extra capacity on some services.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Never mind that they should just build Class 89 copies.
The Badger is love, the Badger is life.

Alternatively the Badger can wreck gardens.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

I guess the "initial" use on Liverpool-Newcastle will be temporary, as once the bi-modes arrive it doesn't make any sense to use 100mph diesel LHCS on the north TPE service that has the maximum running on 125mph and electrified track. The locos will probably also be slower than the 185s they are replacing.

well other than all the none electrified hilly stuff between Leeds and Manchester you mean ... with uncertain time scales on actually gettign knitted ...
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Look at the unit in the background and compare the (lack of) front passenger windows, and single door, to the pictures of the Northern EMU stock.

While it's entirely possible this is for stock that was proposed, but wasn't taken up, my guess is the loco hauled stock will be designed to appear closer to the 185s than the AT300s.

If the LHS is going on to the Middlesbrough and Scarborough lines pretty quickly, it wouldn't surprise me if they were designed to be more commuter/regional in design and layout than intercity.

A shame if that's the case, because I really like design of the TPE EMUs (nicer than the AT300s) and I'm really not keen on the Northern Civity units.

Anyone else wonder if the choice to use LHS is directly related to the costs involved in using DMUs in the transpennine region? Given the costs of operating the large 185 engines, the cost of a high powered loco might not actually cost that differently. It would also be much easier to reform a set into a 6 or 7 carriage 'unit' than otherwise, should they need temporary extra capacity on some services.

or in the absence of a Bi-mode product available in the time scale required allows easy transfer to electric traction when the actual 'trans -pennine' stretch is wired ...

 

[Bantamzen]

That had already been announced; yes. The CLC will be getting a Northern Connect service (to Leeds via Manchester and Bradford on class 195s) as a replacement for the TPE services.

No, the Liverpool-Leeds via Calder Valley Northern Connect will run on the Chat Moss line via Victoria. The CLC is getting a Northern Connect service to Manchester Airport via Piccadilly - see https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/travel/northern-connect.

That's what I was going to say. As a semi-frequent traveler to Warrington C, from Dec 2017 I'm going to have to choose between the slower Calder Valley / Chat Moss service heading for Warrington BQ (and onto Chester), picking up at Bradford and having to cross the city centre from Forster Square to the Interchange (traveling from Baildon), or travel through to Leeds as usual at the moment and pick either the direct service there, or catch a fast to Manchester Vic / Pic and change there for Warrington BQ / Central. When the timetables finally get published I will be going through them with a fine tooth-comb to find the best options, although at least 1 trip will have to be via the Calder Valley when the 195s roll out!

 

[edwin_m]

well other than all the none electrified hilly stuff between Leeds and Manchester you mean ... with uncertain time scales on actually gettign knitted ...

That objection applies to all the services using the North TP routes. I was pointing out that of those, Liverpool-Newcastle is the one with most running under the wires elsewhere on its journey and therefore the least suitable for a diesel-only solution. However it seems likely that bi-modes will be swapped onto this service as soon as available and the LHCS will revert to other services with less running under the wires.

 

[matacaster]

Theoretically yes, and one hit 140mph+ under test on a high-speed line in Spain but they have never been used in service at 125mph and the track engineers would probably have a fit if they were allowed to, due to the axle loadings of 22.5 tonnes.

The Class 68 is about four tonnes lighter at 86 tonnes but that still makes them more than four tonnes heavier than a Class 91. Wikipedia suggests the Class 88s are also expected to weigh in at 86 tonnes.

Just past the three track section (going westwards) the line splits to go straight towards calder valley route but takes a single track left turn towards Huddersfield. Even doing around 60-70 in a DMU, that curve often results in a severe jolt. I wonder what a Class 68 would do to that bit of track?

Methinx either a lower speed limit or some significant easing of that curve might be needed in the event of heavy loco haulage.

 

[andyb2706]

Well I'll go to the foot of my stairs, where I will eat my hat and be blown down by a feather and any other metaphors you can come up with I have never been happier to be wrong after poo-pooing the rumours of Cls 68 and coaching stock being ordered roll on their introduction.

 

[northwichcat]

While it's entirely possible this is for stock that was proposed, but wasn't taken up, my guess is the loco hauled stock will be designed to appear closer to the 185s than the AT300s.

If the LHS is going on to the Middlesbrough and Scarborough lines pretty quickly, it wouldn't surprise me if they were designed to be more commuter/regional in design and layout than intercity.

LHS is going on Newcastle services initially as mentioned in the First press releases. I imagine it'll be used temporarily on Middlesbrough/Scarborough between the AT300s being delivered and Manchester to York electrification being completed.

 

[Greybeard33]

That objection applies to all the services using the North TP routes. I was pointing out that of those, Liverpool-Newcastle is the one with most running under the wires elsewhere on its journey and therefore the least suitable for a diesel-only solution. However it seems likely that bi-modes will be swapped onto this service as soon as available and the LHCS will revert to other services with less running under the wires.

Indeed the DfT's original franchise announcement, back in December, said that the 19 bi-modes, once delivered, would initially be used on Liverpool to Edinburgh and Manchester Airport to Newcastle services.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Equally First haven't ordered LHCS for a laugh. There must have been a solid business reason for doing so, e.g. early availability.

1. available in the time frame

2. uncertaity when all the knitting will be done on the actual transpennine stretch

ergo LHCS start with diesel and change once the time frames for knitting etc are confirmed

 

[anti-pacer]

So, given all of these announcements, once all the new stock has arrived, what will run where and roughly what amount of 185's will be released?

Sorry if this has already been covered but there are pages and pages on this topic.

 

[northwichcat]

So, given all of these announcements, once all the new stock has arrived, what will run where and roughly what amount of 185's will be released?

Sorry if this has already been covered but there are pages and pages on this topic.

All Hull and Cleethorpes services will get refurbished 185s, as will the additional Leeds-Manchester service. TPE have said all South TPE services will have 6 cars between Manchester and Sheffield. In total 29 x 185s will be retained. 22 x 185s and all the 350s will be released - no future operator has been finalised for either despite all the claims about the 350s going to LM.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So, given all of these announcements, once all the new stock has arrived, what will run where and roughly what amount of 185's will be released?

2018 - Liverpool-Newcastle and Manchester Airport-Newcastle will go over to 68+LHCS, replacing a tranche of 185s.
2018 - Manchester-Preston-Glasgow goes over to CAF EMUs, replacing 10x350s (running via Bolton by then).
2018 - Liverpool-Preston-Glasgow starts with CAF EMUs (new service).
2019 - AT300s start running Liverpool-Newcastle (to be extended to Edinburgh Dec 2019) and Manchester Airport-Newcastle.
This allows 68+LHCS to run Liverpool-Scarborough and Manchester Airport-Middlesbrough, which releases another tranche of 185s.
All this is going to be a gradual transition, taking maybe a year for each route.
So it will be into 2020 before all this is in place.

Key infrastructure changes:
Dec 2017 - Ordsall Chord is planned to be in service
Dec 2019 - Extra platforms at Manchester Piccadilly and remodelling at Oxford Road (dependent on planning approval and construction timetable).
It's not clear what legs AT300s will work electrically, but potentially Liverpool/Airport-Stalybridge and York-Newcastle-Edinburgh.

There may be some additional interim rolling stock to boost capacity before the new trains show up.
185s should be released from late 2018 into 2020, and will be staying on Manchester-Hull and TP South, and will run the Leeds stoppers via Guide Bridge.

That's my take on the plans, anyway.

 

[northwichcat]

They might start doing for the longer routes come November '17.

There won't be any EMUs released by Northern or TPE before 2018. The TPE ITT stated the existing 350 lease was until September 2018 (we don't know the exact delivery date for the CAF electric replacements yet), while Porterbrook have said the 323s will leave Northern in 2018 and 2019.

Likely more 319s available though.


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185s should be released from late 2018 into 2020, and will be staying on Manchester-Hull and TP South, and will run the Leeds stoppers via Guide Bridge.

Worth noting TPE will be doing a full refurbishment of 29 x 185s so may need to hang on to released 185s to cover those refurbishments.

Would pairing 10 350/3s with 10 350/4s be sensible?

The /3s were initially delivered months in advance of LM requiring them so TPE loaned them to strengthen services for the Glasgow Commonwealth Games and Edinburgh Festival, so exactly that has already happened with TPE.

 

[WatcherZero]

The owning ROSCO required that the 350/4 be tested for compatibility with the other sub fleets which was done during commissioning and 110mph trials.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I'm curious to know whether a train comprising five loco hauled carriages will offer less capacity than a doubled up class 185. I'm also wondering whether TPE have chosen to operate sets of five carriages because they feel that it sufficiently satisfy demand or whether that is the limit for a class 68 crossing the Pennines.

 

[Camden]

States less

 

[notlob.divad]

I'm curious to know whether a train comprising five loco hauled carriages will offer less capacity than a doubled up class 185. I'm also wondering whether TPE have chosen to operate sets of five carriages because they feel that it sufficiently satisfy demand or whether that is the limit for a class 68 crossing the Pennines.

I think they are counting on the increased frequency of service dealing with the demand rather than the capacity of each train.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'm curious to know whether a train comprising five loco hauled carriages will offer less capacity than a doubled up class 185. I'm also wondering whether TPE have chosen to operate sets of five carriages because they feel that it sufficiently satisfy demand or whether that is the limit for a class 68 crossing the Pennines.

We don't know the vehicle size but assuming 26m like the IEPs, 5x26m is 130m, compared to 6x23m for 185 = 138m.
I would assume the seating capacity will be very similar.
Anything longer and you run into problems with platform lengths at smaller stations.

TPE run 8x20m (2x350) on some Manchester-Scotland trains.