New TPE Train Discussion

[61653 HTAFC]

68 haulage also seams a tad strange under the wires, would 88s work?

If these new coaches are planned to have a long life on the route then I imagine 88s may take over once the wires are up... but as the coaches will beat the wires by a good five years, 88s won't be much use initially!

 

[Bungle965]

If these new coaches are planned to have a long life on the route then I imagine 88s may take over once the wires are up... but as the coaches will beat the wires by a good five years, 88s won't be much use initially!

What is also needed to be taken into account is that Class 88 diesel capabilities are not the best, it was said that they had the equivalent power to a Class 20 with a much smaller fuel tank.
Sam

 

[61653 HTAFC]

What is also needed to be taken into account is that Class 88 diesel capabilities are not the best, it was said that they had the equivalent power to a Class 20 with a much smaller fuel tank.
Sam

Indeed. The diesel capability of a class 88 is very much a "last mile" thing.

 

[andyb2706]

http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nw1604f.htm


Perhaps this is the "retro" fleet. Will these be Mark 5s like the Caledonian Sleeper coaches?

Adam

This still seems strange to me. I was under the impression that either in the contract or TPE have stated all new trains are to be 125mph, yet the class 68 has a maximum speed of 99mph (according to Wikipedia) what I have not seen mentioned is could the Class 67 be used as that is capable of 125mph if the rumours about the coaches are true.
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Exactly - this is a heavy piece of investment and it's better for all involved if First thoroughly assess the options they have. They need the right train for the job, and there is no point rushing into it. I am sure they are busy sorting something out, and as Paul has said, the franchise is only 25 days old.

Can I just point out that the quote the franchise is only 25 days old doesn't really wash. As if you look at Northern they announced new trains before they took over the franchise so it shows it can be done.

Timescales are getting short for the introduction of brand new type of trains (look how long it is taking to get the IEP into service) by the 2020 date mentioned in the on the TPE website for introduction of all 220 vehicles and that these trains have to be intercity style (doors at either end of carriage) and capable of 125mph which means either more AT300's or rake of coaches which will have to be hauled by a Class 67 as 68/88 are shown as max speed of 99/100mph

 

[RobShipway]

This still seems strange to me. I was under the impression that either in the contract or TPE have stated all new trains are to be 125mph, yet the class 68 has a maximum speed of 99mph (according to Wikipedia) what I have not seen mentioned is could the Class 67 be used as that is capable of 125mph if the rumours about the coaches are true.
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Can I just point out that the quote the franchise is only 25 days old doesn't really wash. As if you look at Northern they announced new trains before they took over the franchise so it shows it can be done.

Timescales are getting short for the introduction of brand new type of trains (look how long it is taking to get the IEP into service) by the 2020 date mentioned in the on the TPE website for introduction of all 220 vehicles and that these trains have to be intercity style (doors at either end of carriage) and capable of 125mph which means either more AT300's or rake of coaches which will have to be hauled by a Class 67 as 68/88 are shown as max speed of 99/100mph

This seems strange to me as well, because the trains will be in service in under two years time if Wikipedia is correct and like the AT300 trains will be doing the North Pennine routes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TransPennine_Express, so I am presuming that the class 185 trains will be doing the South Pennine route to Cleethorpes?

Now I know, that the first Mk5 coaches are due to be delivered to Scotrail for the Caledonion sleeper next year with being used in service by 2018. Working on the basis that there will be 65 coaches ordered that will be in service and adding two sets of coaches for spare sets, which would mean 75 coaches to be built, that is on top of the 75 to be built for the Caledonion sleeper. Would CAF being able to build that amount of coaches as well as building the Caledonion fleet of coaches by the end 2017?

I am also presuming that the order for the coaches with CAF if it happens, is the TBC fleet set as shown in Wikipedia under future fleet.

That still leaves what EMU fleet is going to be ordered for the Liverpool/Manchester Airport to Scotland fleet, which I presume is either going to be Hitachi class 800 or class 385 uprated to 125mph running or a 125mph EMU train from CAF?

 

[andyb2706]

I have a few issues.....no issues may be the wrong word. But at this time I can not think of the word that I am looking for. The government has re-branded Transpennine Express to an Intercity route which supposedly means that new stock has to be Intercity style stock which requires doors at either end of coach and not at 1/3 and 2/3 of the commuter service.

So for an upgraded 385 to 125mph is a problem. Firstly it is a commuter train with 1/3 and 2/3 doors and secondly I don't think there is sufficient room between the front of the train and the location of the nearest passenger for it to get a crash worthiness certificate for 125mph. If you look at the Pendo, Javelin and the IEP they all have long noses and in the case of the Pendo you have the kitchen at one end of the train and at the other bike storage.

Secondly this about the trains being 125mph and the rumours of CAF coaches. There is no new locomotive on the network capable of running at 125mph. The only locos we have that are capable of this speed I'd the 67 and 91. Now once the trans pennine is electrified would they want to run a diesel locos along it, even before the Manchester-Leeds-York section is electrified there will be large sections that are already electrified! As to the 91 these are over 25 year old and are being got rid off by one intercity company, would another intercity company want to take them on? Also there is no mention of a DVT and lets not forget a lot of TPE terminuses are bay platforms. Would 5 coaches, engine and DVT fit in them? Although I would say it would be fun to be on a rake of 5 coaches with a 91 on the front....think of the acceleration!!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Can I just point out that the quote the franchise is only 25 days old doesn't really wash.

Indeed. The contract was signed on December 23, so TPE were then committed to whatever they had promised in the contract.
We can't be entirely sure what that is because many of the details are not public.
But capacity, frequency and inter-city quality from key dates are bound to figure.
Limiting trains to 100mph is not important initially, certainly not on the core routes off the ECML.
The timetable (running times etc) for the new trains is not agreed anyway.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I have a few issues.....no issues may be the wrong word. But at this time I can not think of the word that I am looking for. The government has re-branded Transpennine Express to an Intercity route which supposedly means that new stock has to be Intercity style stock which requires doors at either end of coach and not at 1/3 and 2/3 of the commuter service.

So for an upgraded 385 to 125mph is a problem. Firstly it is a commuter train with 1/3 and 2/3 doors and secondly I don't think there is sufficient room between the front of the train and the location of the nearest passenger for it to get a crash worthiness certificate for 125mph. If you look at the Pendo, Javelin and the IEP they all have long noses and in the case of the Pendo you have the kitchen at one end of the train and at the other bike storage.

Secondly this about the trains being 125mph and the rumours of CAF coaches. There is no new locomotive on the network capable of running at 125mph. The only locos we have that are capable of this speed I'd the 67 and 91. Now once the trans pennine is electrified would they want to run a diesel locos along it, even before the Manchester-Leeds-York section is electrified there will be large sections that are already electrified! As to the 91 these are over 25 year old and are being got rid off by one intercity company, would another intercity company want to take them on? Also there is no mention of a DVT and lets not forget a lot of TPE terminuses are bay platforms. Would 5 coaches, engine and DVT fit in them? Although I would say it would be fun to be on a rake of 5 coaches with a 91 on the front....think of the acceleration!!

 

[edwin_m]

The 185s will remain as 100mph units. It seems they will be used on South Transpennine and also between Manchester and Leeds, and none of these routes has any track passed for more than 100mph. The 125mph sections are on the ECML north of York where as I understand it only the AT300s will operate.

On the LHCS question, is there any official indication that this is even being considered as a long-term solution (rather than a temporary stopgap), or is it just forum wibble and rumours being circulated round and coming back with the appearance of truth? I can see no reason for TPE to buy LHCS when MUs would be available in similar timescales and at a much lower whole-life cost.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Internally 68's have been talked about for some time. Only since the franchise announcement did the use of 442's finally get dropped. As DRS featured prominently in the rolling stock discussions would rule out 67's and 88's don't have enough diesel power to climb the hills (a 2 engine 185 can't keep timings and that's 1200hp for 3 coaches)

A tag on order from CAF would make sense in the tooling for the coaches are already being used for the sleeper stock. The use of a 67 over a 68 would also make sense in the higher speed, however the 67's tractive effort is somewhat poor and these here hills are a mighty bit big! What doesn't make sense is the 3 fleets TPE will have over the one fleet we have now. That doesn't mean Im not looking forward to the prospect of working LHCS

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Internally 68's have been talked about for some time. Only since the franchise announcement did the use of 442's finally get dropped. As DRS featured prominently in the rolling stock discussions would rule out 67's and 88's don't have enough diesel power to climb the hills (a 2 engine 185 can't keep timings and that's 1200hp for 3 coaches)

A tag on order from CAF would make sense in the tooling for the coaches are already being used for the sleeper stock. The use of a 67 over a 68 would also make sense in the higher speed, however the 67's tractive effort is somewhat poor and these here hills are a mighty bit big! What doesn't make sense is the 3 fleets TPE will have over the one fleet we have now. That doesn't mean Im not looking forward to the prospect of working LHCS

The ROSCO would need some assurance that the LHCS will find work for at least a decade, probably more than that.
I don't see how TPE can give that commitment, but DfT could.
They would rubber-stamp AT300, and EMUs for the WCML, but LHCS?

If there was some common procurement of maintenance with Northern's CAF kit that would help the business case, but there seems to be little fleet commonality and no interest from CAF in maintaining any of it.
The Serco CAF stock is going to be maintained by Alstom I think.

 

[Roose]

The government has re-branded Transpennine Express to an Intercity route which supposedly means that new stock has to be Intercity style stock which requires doors at either end of coach and not at 1/3 and 2/3 of the commuter service.

Is the 'requirement' part of the franchise specification or are people assuming that to be the case because that's where doors have traditionally been located on non-commuter stock?

No matter the type of route, boarding or disembarking from a rail vehicle with end doors is more of an obstacle course, akin to joining an aircraft, compared with a vehicle with 1/3, 2/3 doors. Add luggage to the equation and the problems magnify.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Is the 'requirement' part of the franchise specification.

No, but various politicians had let it be known they wanted TransPennine to be more InterCity than Regional Railways.

 

[RobShipway]

No, but various politicians had let it be known they wanted TransPennine to be more InterCity than Regional Railways.

But I suspect that those Politicians are wanting more Inter City, but still with the 1/3, 2/3 doors that the class 185/350's have.

 

[swt_passenger]

This still seems strange to me. I was under the impression that either in the contract or TPE have stated all new trains are to be 125mph...

That's not the case AFAICT. If you go back to mid April in this thread there are links to four separate track access applications, and in one of those it refers to one of the three orders being for '100 mph trains'.

 

[D6975]

That's not the case AFAICT. If you go back to mid April in this thread there are links to four separate track access applications, and in one of those it refers to one of the three orders being for '100 mph trains'.

Quite, what's the point of 125mph capable trains on routes like Man-Scarboro and Man-Hull? How much of those routes is 100mph let alone 125?

 

[class26]

Quite, what's the point of 125mph capable trains on routes like Man-Scarboro and Man-Hull? How much of those routes is 100mph let alone 125?

Trains last around 40 years. Surely the modernisation that`s coming up is going top increase line speeds all over the north? I would hope before the trains mid life point Manchester - Leeds at least will be up to 125 mph

 

[D6975]

Trains last around 40 years. Surely the modernisation that`s coming up is going top increase line speeds all over the north? I would hope before the trains mid life point Manchester - Leeds at least will be up to 125 mph

You've got to be joking. There's no way Manchester-Leeds is ever going to be 125mph along the current alignment, it's far too curvy.

 

[Whistler40145]

I totally agree D6975, the route isn't suitable for 125mph, a new railway line would have to be built.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Trains last around 40 years. Surely the modernisation that`s coming up is going top increase line speeds all over the north?
I would hope before the trains mid life point Manchester - Leeds at least will be up to 125 mph

Not without major new tunnelling/deviations.
Liverpool-Manchester has been upgraded to 90mph (mostly).
Routes from Piccadilly/Victoria to Stalybridge are desperately slow.
"HS3" has some fancy ideas but they cost £££ and will take decades to deliver.
Meanwhile we can't even be bothered with tilt to increase existing line speeds.

 

[CosherB]

That still leaves what EMU fleet is going to be ordered for the Liverpool/Manchester Airport to Scotland fleet, which I presume is either going to be Hitachi class 800 or class 385 uprated to 125mph running or a 125mph EMU train from CAF?

Or how about a Siemens ICE?

 

[RobShipway]

Or how about a Siemens ICE?

Nah, an ICE would be too long a train and I doubt Siemens will be build a limited run of 5 car units anyway.

I am suspecting that the EMU fleet is either going to be class 801 or 100mph/ 125mph version of class 385 so that there is something similar to the class 802's that have been ordered. Or something similar to the class 395 with 6 cars.

 

[Sparks807Evo]

I am suspecting that the EMU fleet is either going to be class 801 or 100mph/ 125mph version of class 385 so that there is something similar to the class 802's that have been ordered. Or something similar to the class 395 with 6 cars.

A 125 mph of the 385 would be the Siemens Verve - no gangway but a sloping cab end. Personally I'd quite like to see them ordered.

*380 not 385!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

A 125 mph of the 385 would be the Siemens Verve - no gangway but a sloping cab end. Personally I'd quite like to see them ordered.

Yes, the 380 looks very InterCity inside despite the door layout, and it's basically a 125mph slab-sided version of that.

 

[RobShipway]

A 125 mph of the 385 would be the Siemens Verve - no gangway but a sloping cab end. Personally I'd quite like to see them ordered.

No, it would be the Hitachi A-train class 385 as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_385 or class 395 as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_395 that is capable of 125mph.

I do not see any Siemens trains being ordered, when the rest of the fleet will be Hitachi class 802's.

 

[Sparks807Evo]

Yes, the 380 looks very InterCity inside despite the door layout, and it's basically a 125mph slab-sided version of that.

Sorry, yes I meant 380 as opposed to 385 - Thanks Neil!

I can't see any reason why Siemens couldn't be ordered Robbies - considering the 185s have done well and there is likely to be a split fleet - either CAF and Hitachi, or perhaps Siemens and Hitachi.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do not see any Siemens trains being ordered, when the rest of the fleet will be Hitachi class 802's.

It won't necessarily. For some of the North TPE fleet CAF is being considered.

 

[hwl]

Sorry, yes I meant 380 as opposed to 385 - Thanks Neil!

I can't see any reason why Siemens couldn't be ordered Robbies - considering the 185s have done well and there is likely to be a split fleet - either CAF and Hitachi, or perhaps Siemens and Hitachi.

Given Siemens will be building the 1440 cars* of 70x units for Thameslink, GN Moorgate and SWT when would any other stock be able to be delivered? (And plenty of non UK orders)

*Which is circa 3/4 of the size of the electrostar fleet built over nearly 20 years being built in circa 3 years.

 

[Bungle965]

Given Siemens will be building the 1440 cars* of 70x units for Thameslink, GN Moorgate and SWT when would any other stock be able to be delivered? (And plenty of non UK orders)

*Which is circa 3/4 of the size of the electrostar fleet built over nearly 20 years being built in circa 3 years.

Siemens order books are very full at the moment, so as said it is a doubt whether they would be able to build anything else. Talk of anything coming from Stadler has gone quiet would that not be an option?
Sam

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would still like to see a FLIRT UK - they could build something like this to UK loading gauge:

http://www.intercity.pl/pl/site/o-n...rwszy-flirt-dla-pkp-intercity-juz-gotowy.html