New TPE Train Discussion

[WatcherZero]

Im starting to think First are playing a game of chicken, holding off two bidders as long as possible in the hope that one will cave in to pressure and offer a lower price. They would have had to include quotes as part of their bid so the only reason for a delay is if their quibbling over specification/delivery dates or trying to force a better deal than their original quotes from the manufacturers.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

All we know is 68's are involved with intercity style coaches i.e end doors and 442's are not going to be used

Will need more than two rakes, would have thought 5 at least for LIV-NCL workings.....

I wouldn't necessarily say that at least in First's words "Intercity Style" = end doors: after all they're treated as an Intercity TOC for the sake of PPM and the 185s were unveiled as intercity trains. If hauled stock is used it'd have to be end doors as that's all that's available but if new-build stock was ordered, end doors wouldn't be a given.
As for rakes, is it certain that ALL Liverpool to Newcastle services would be switched? Isn't there some degree of interworking with the Scarborough services?

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Not generally. For one or two evening Services there are where the arrival from Scarborough forms the Newcastle and vice versa. but this is more down to peak capacity than anything else while the last Newcastle runs in the Scarborough path with connections at york for Scarborough and leeds for hull

The only info we have internally is what management have let slip unintentionally. All trains will be new fleets, intercity style end door carriages with 68's will be introduced first. And bi mode trains will also feature. Nothing else has yet been confirmed but there will still be a lead time of two years at least, and Edinburgh will be set up as a train crew depot in 3 years. The Manager for Newcastle has been offered that job but she wants to go home to her native Glasgow and can't wait that long. Sadly for some of the traincrew she has chosen to take voluntary redundancy instead

 

[Class377/5]

I thought Bombardier were looking at whether they could get a 115mph Verve opposed to a 125mph version and I don't think they are interested in creating a diesel option.

Your a tad confused. The Verve is a Siemens product which is just a 23m Desiro City (think 380 replacement offer) with uprated protection. Bombardier has nothing to do with the Verve at all, it's offering is the Aventra which comes in 75-125mph capability with various door positions and train lengths possible.

 

[47802]

Not generally. For one or two evening Services there are where the arrival from Scarborough forms the Newcastle and vice versa. but this is more down to peak capacity than anything else while the last Newcastle runs in the Scarborough path with connections at york for Scarborough and leeds for hull

The only info we have internally is what management have let slip unintentionally. All trains will be new fleets, intercity style end door carriages with 68's will be introduced first. And bi mode trains will also feature. Nothing else has yet been confirmed but there will still be a lead time of two years at least, and Edinburgh will be set up as a train crew depot in 3 years. The Manager for Newcastle has been offered that job but she wants to go home to her native Glasgow and can't wait that long. Sadly for some of the traincrew she has chosen to take voluntary redundancy instead

So if I'm understanding this correctly your saying there will be some 68 Loco Hauled Trains with new Loco Hauled Carriages and some Bi-Modes Units as well, that's barking mad IMHO.

 

[Class172]

So if I'm understanding this correctly your saying there will be some 68 Loco Hauled Trains with new Loco Hauled Carriages and some Bi-Modes Units as well, that's barking mad IMHO.

My understanding was Class 68s will be used with mk3s as a stop-gap measure until the aforementioned new stock becomes available?

 

[47802]

My understanding was Class 68s will be used with mk3s as a stop-gap measure until the aforementioned new stock becomes available?

Well maybe or is it.

1, Couple of MK3 Loco Hauled sets with 68's as a fix for the disappearing 170's

2. Medium term some new Loco Hauled Coaches because they can not get the Bi-modes in time for some needed capacity uplift

3. Longer term some Bi-mode units presumably AT300.

Seems an expensive convoluted solution if that's the case so I'm probably talking rubish

 

[al.currie93]

My understanding was Class 68s will be used with mk3s as a stop-gap measure until the aforementioned new stock becomes available?

Well maybe or is it.

1, Couple of MK3 Loco Hauled sets with 68's as a fix for the disappearing 170's

2. Medium term some new Loco Hauled Coaches because they can not get the Bi-modes in time for some needed capacity uplift

3. Longer term some Bi-mode units presumably AT300.

Seems an expensive convoluted solution if that's the case so I'm probably talking rubish

From reading past threads, three new fleets seem to be believed - one of which is believed to be LHCS to be hauled by 68s. As you say, I doubt a new fleet of LHCS would be used as a temporary solution as it would be ludicrously expensive and wasteful, so if that turns out to be the case then we are looking at long term LHCS on TPE. Which, given the DRS order for more 68s at the time the franchise negotiations were taking place and the 68s performance on Chiltern doesn't surprise me - though I'm not going to believe anything as fact until I see an announcement

 

[sprinterguy]

Well maybe or is it.

1, Couple of MK3 Loco Hauled sets with 68's as a fix for the disappearing 170's

It's been claimed in the "Class 68s in storage" thread that the Pretendolino rake is expected to move across to TPE: That could be broken down into two 4-car sets (although it'd need a second DVT, and they'd both need to be AAR multiple working compatible) as a stop-gap measure to help reduce the impact of the remaining 170s leaving.

 

[RichmondCommu]

It doesn't make sense to be even considering loco hauled stock as a long term solution when bi-modes are now so easily available.

 

[northwichcat]

From reading past threads, three new fleets seem to be believed - one of which is believed to be LHCS to be hauled by 68s.

My understanding is:

May 2016 fleet:
10 x 350/4s
51 x 185s (with some loaned to Northern on a daily basis)
2 x 68 hauled mk3 sets (as indirect replacement for the departing 170s)

December 2019 fleet:
29 x 185s
12 x 5 car Intercity EMUs - possibly from CAF
32 x 5 car Intercity sets which can operate off the wires for North TPE - some of which could be from the add-on option to the GWR AT300 order to provide quicker delivery but the option is for a maximum of 30 x 5 car and Hull Trains also want some, so that would mean a separate order is also needed which may be a slightly different product.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

From reading past threads, three new fleets seem to be believed - one of which is believed to be LHCS to be hauled by 68s.

Form reading this thread, and from the internal rumblings within the *ahem* remaining management of TPE thats also what is understood to be involved. But as Al Currie puts it.....

I'm not going to believe anything as fact until I see an announcement

 

[Bletchleyite]

Whichever of those it is, this does seem like the transformation of TPE from a glorified and heavily overcrowded regional express operation claiming to be InterCity into one that is arguably more InterCity than XC is.

 

[43096]

Whichever of those it is, this does seem like the transformation of TPE from a glorified and heavily overcrowded regional express operation claiming to be InterCity into one that is arguably more InterCity than XC is.

Yes, but that's what First/Keolis also said at the start of the last TPE franchise!

It's not hard to be more InterCity than XC: XC is just a jumped-up Sprinter railway with delusions of adequacy these days.

 

[CosherB]

It's been claimed in the "Class 68s in storage" thread that the Pretendolino rake is expected to move across to TPE: That could be broken down into two 4-car sets (although it'd need a second DVT, and they'd both need to be AAR multiple working compatible) as a stop-gap measure to help reduce the impact of the remaining 170s leaving.

The Pretendolino 'fleet' consisted of 5 TSOs, 2 RFMs, 3 FOs and 2 DVTs. DRS nabbed 82101 a few years ago but I don't believe this was ever used by them and still resides in a sorry state at Barrow Hill. As the only 'spare' Mk3 LHCS I can think of, it would be feasible to create two 4-carriage sets each with a DVT.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHlCgYEK7Ms

There are eight 68s fitted with AAR so it's not unreasonable to suggest that this will be required for the Pretendolino sub-rakes.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

If I was a betting man I wouldn't be surprised if some new build carriages to work with some class 68s were to feature in the long term plan. (Hint hint.)

Class 68s could always be exchanged for fancy new high speed electric or bi-mode locos in the future but using the same carriages.

 

[CAF397]

Swapping 68s for 88s would require very little driver training too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Let's assume TPE do order some nice new LHCS and driving trailers (probably DBSO/DBFO[1] rather than DVT)...I wonder if the passengers will prefer them over the 800s?

[1] The logic might well be for it to contain an area of First Class, some wheelchair spaces and the accessible bog, then all the TSOs could be identical (sort-of like the way the 185 is done, but with the wheelchair spaces and bog at the inner rather than outer end). DB used this approach for their PumA-Modus Silberling refurbs. This would then give the highest flexibility to reform sets, either temporarily or permanently, in future.

 

[Greybeard33]

The new 4th Edition of the Rail Delivery Group's Long Term Passenger Rolling Stock Strategy indicates, in Appendix 5, that FTPE's 220 new vehicles will all be electric and bi-mode, 80 to be delivered in CP5 and 140 in CP6. However, it does have a note "Dates and mix of trains to be confirmed".

 

[D6975]

Page 19 however contains this:

This requirement might potentially be satisfied by various permutations
of new construction and/or conversion of older vehicles, including loco-haulage in some
instances, but the DfT’s quality criteria in franchise ITTs are more likely to favour new vehicles.
Concerns about how to ‘future-proof’ such an investment in new trains can be mitigated in various ways including:
•building some of the trains as bi-modes, as for the new TPE franchise, assuming that the trains can potentially have long term value operating in both diesel and electric modes; or
•building the trains as unpowered vehicles to be hauled or propelled by diesel, electric or bi-mode locomotives.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I see that Northern's new units are described as classes 195 and 331. Not seen this info before, but then I haven't really been looking for it.

 

[northwichcat]

Apparently the contracts are being signed today but nothing will be announced until a press event at Piccadilly platform 12 on Friday morning which will include a unit arriving in the new livery.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

But here is a hint.....

 

[TheKnightWho]

Apparently the contracts are being signed today but nothing will be announced until a press event at Piccadilly platform 12 on Friday morning which will include a unit arriving in the new livery.

Seems unlikely to be bimodes then, unless they're giving 800001 a quick do-over?

 

[Bletchleyite]

A unit in the new livery != a new unit

It'll be a vinyled up 185.

 

[TheKnightWho]

A unit in the new livery != a new unit

It'll be a vinyled up 185.

I was going to say!

 

[northwichcat]

A unit in the new livery != a new unit

It'll be a vinyled up 185.

Strangely there's been suggestions one of the 350s will be getting the new livery as well as 29 of the 185s, possibly so they can show off their new branding to people who use stations only served by the Scottish route ahead of the new trains arriving?

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Apparently the 350's are staying as they are...

 

[Bletchleyite]

...until they look like this?

 

[northwichcat]

...until they look like this?

Why would they ever look like that? They are remaining with TPE until at least Autumn 2018 and by that time LM (in their current form) will have deceased!

 

[Doctor Fegg]

FTPE's 220 new vehicles

Voyagers? NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Oh, wait, I thought you said new 220 vehicles.