New TPE Train Discussion

[gimmea50anyday]

Regear the motors, 110mph... 125 mph... Its possible.....

So, what will they tug? I hear there is a fleet of 24 5 car EMU's coming off lease from somewhere down south which are capable of loco haulage.....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Class 68's ? Hmm... 99mph Max speed

Hauling the first batch of Mk4's discarded by VTEC ?

I have a feeling people might like the "proper trains" a bit too much and be disappointed when something else comes along instead.

Of course that solution has potential expansion available in future - if more Mk4s became available the formations could be extended to 6 or even 7 cars. And unlike DMUs that could be done with a bit of overnight depot shunting.

Very sensible suggestion, though I think they are still saying all-new.

 

[northwichcat]

Class 68's ? Hmm... 99mph Max speed

Hauling the first batch of Mk4's discarded by VTEC ?

From TPE presentation

"December 2017 brand new intercity carriages
December 2018 brand new state-of-the-art intercity trains with speeds of up to 125mph"

No indication the first set will be multiple units or will be capable of 125mph but they will be brand new carriages.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

300 postings made so far and how far has our knowledge of the thread matter been so clarified?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I still think there is a very high chance of CAF Mk5s. When is the Sleeper kit meant to be finished? Is it an easy follow-on order?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

My points are all being refuted. 2026 that would be 2 years after the end of the new franchise, or 1 if the extension is taken. We still don't have a final date for the TPE improvements and electrification to be complete. But I was 'assuming' a similar timescale.

December 2022 TT change for electric services on TransPennine North, with the possibility of some being introduced slightly earlier depending on progress.

 

[Bletchleyite]

300 postings made so far and how far has our knowledge of the thread matter been so clarified?

The big clarification is the extract from a job specification specifically mentioning Class 68 locomotives.

 

[Greybeard33]

From TPE presentation

"December 2017 brand new intercity carriages
December 2018 brand new state-of-the-art intercity trains with speeds of up to 125mph"

No indication the first set will be multiple units or will be capable of 125mph but they will be brand new carriages.

But the DfT's interactive timeline gives more detail than the TPE presentation and says of the first batch:

End of 2017: New trains start to enter service
End of 2018: 13 new 125mph trains (65 carriages) all in service on North Trans-Pennine route

If the locos are to be 100mph Class 68s it would be rather economical with the truth to describe LHCS as 125mph, but dragged 125mph EMUs could achieve 125mph on the ECML.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I still think there is a very high chance of CAF Mk5s. When is the Sleeper kit meant to be finished? Is it an easy follow-on order?

CAF stock for Caledonian Sleeper not due until April 2018, but that could be delayed by the fit out which is really bespoke, a conventional seated carriage order may be progressed more quickly, but there will still be extensive testing to be conducted prior to entry into service.

Common sense, which is clearly in short supply before we're throwing away silly money on LHCS, would be to re-jig IEP delivery and free up Mark 4 stock on the East Coast early which can then be hauled around by Class 68 diesels, with GWR getting their IEP sets a year later, but for various (mainly ROSCO) reasons, this is difficult to achieve.

A Class 68 on a rake of 6 Mark 4 coaches isn't the worst idea out there, but it's still pretty crazy, however it would allow, in the fullness of time, a Class 88 locomotive (or another design) to come in, with 4MW installed power, and run 110mph services with a full Mark 4 rake of 9 carriages + DVT (or new build driving vehicle). There's also no real reason why a more powerful electric design from Vossloh or another builder, with 125mph top speed, couldn't be introduced.

There's little doubt that with sensible timetabling, you could fill 4 9 carriage trains per hour between York, Leeds and Manchester, by mid 2020s.

 

[northwichcat]

But the DfT's interactive timeline gives more detail than the TPE presentation and says of the first batch:

If the locos are to be 100mph Class 68s it would be rather economical with the truth to describe LHCS as 125mph, but dragged 125mph EMUs could achieve 125mph on the ECML.

But that then means 19 x trains for North TPE which aren't necessarily 125mph.

The DfT timeline also states 12 x electric trains for WCML Scottish services at the end of 2019.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I still think there is a very high chance of CAF Mk5s. When is the Sleeper kit meant to be finished? Is it an easy follow-on order?

If mk5 day coaches are to happen, the issue is likely to be how much capacity CAF has at the factory. If the sleepers have to be finished before any follow-on can start, the lead time will mean there's not much point unless they become a long-term solution. I don't think that the 22m carriages would be a major issue though, certainly less so than the 26m of an AT300 variant would be.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's little doubt that with sensible timetabling, you could fill 4 9 carriage trains per hour between York, Leeds and Manchester, by mid 2020s.

Indeed. And if you then have new electric locomotives that are in good nick and the Mk4s are getting a bit tired, you then order new coaches to go with the existing locomotives.

There are good reasons to choose MUs, particularly in the platform-length-constrained South East, but LHCS still has plenty going for it. And given that they will basically be fixed-formation sets 99% of the time or more, putting autocouplers on the outer ends isn't exactly hard. SBB are the kings of treating fixed-formation LHCS as if it was really a multiple unit, with driving trailers and locomotives ending up all over the formation.
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If mk5 day coaches are to happen, the issue is likely to be how much capacity CAF has at the factory. If the sleepers have to be finished before any follow-on can start, the lead time will mean there's not much point unless they become a long-term solution. I don't think that the 22m carriages would be a major issue though, certainly less so than the 26m of an AT300 variant would be.

Indeed, a loss of one metre of coach length would be able to be worked around by way of a space-efficient layout and the choice of a modern thin-backed seat design enabling more legroom at a tighter pitch (i.e. not the incredibly wasteful layout of the Voyager). And if you look at the Class 800 coaches, at least 2m of each end doesn't have seats or windows in it anyway - they are not *that* space efficient. Sure, at one end a bog and bike space (if regular bog) goes there, but what of the other end?

 

[Haydn1971]

I have a feeling people might like the "proper trains" a bit too much and be disappointed when something else comes along instead.

I'm largely indifferent, just going on the job description posted above.

Of course that solution has potential expansion available in future - if more Mk4s became available the formations could be extended to 6 or even 7 cars. And unlike DMUs that could be done with a bit of overnight depot shunting.

Now who's talking proper trains ! Haha

Very sensible suggestion, though I think they are still saying all-new.

Brand new 68's, new Mk4's from VTEC - put some spin on it
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I still think there is a very high chance of CAF Mk5s. When is the Sleeper kit meant to be finished? Is it an easy follow-on order?

Throwing a wild speculation into the ring here... Has there ever been mid door hauled carriages in the UK before (excluding slammers).

 

[po8crg]

Throwing a wild speculation into the ring here... Has there ever been mid door hauled carriages in the UK before (excluding slammers).

Well, there have been non-locked doors.

 

[Haydn1971]

But that then means 19 x trains for North TPE which aren't necessarily 125mph. The DfT timeline also states 12 x electric trains for WCML Scottish services at the end of 2019.

It's not like other government promised haven't been broken is it ?

 

[Greybeard33]

But that then means 19 x trains for North TPE which aren't necessarily 125mph.

The DfT timeline also states 12 x electric trains for WCML Scottish services at the end of 2019.

No, because, as I previously posted in #288, the timeline also says:

End of 2020: 19 new 125mph bi-mode trains (95 carriages) all in service on Liverpool - Edinburgh and Manchester Airport - Newcastle services.

(this bit is in a "flag" confusingly entitled "Manchester Airport".)

I would guess this final batch of 19 are likely to be an AT300 order following on from FGW's.

The 12 EMUs for the WCML are the only batch for which 125mph is not mentioned.

 

[Haydn1971]

Indeed. And if you then have new electric locomotives that are in good nick and the Mk4s are getting a bit tired, you then order new coaches to go with the existing locomotives.

Tired ? Nothing a good refurb couldn't fix, transfer over enough to cover the required number of carriages plus an extra half dozen, refurb a whole set at a time over a couple of years.

 

[notlob.divad]

Well, there have been non-locked doors.

That would be 'Retro'
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I don't have a good knowledge of the inner workings of Locomotives but I have been doing some reading up on the Class 68 Locos. (Just to note from the Job description that it says new rolling stock and subhire/lease of Class 68 Locomotives. Are we sure they are going to be new? Are there any of these that will be going spare around that time?)

Anyway my reading up there is a note on Wikipedia (yes my knowledge is that basic) that says the engines in class 68 Locos do not meet Emissions standards as of January 2015. Referencing Rail magazine issue 742 from April 2014. However a note above says that it complies with Stage III A.

Firstly are these two 'facts' correct?
Secondly does this mean no more can be built?

 

[Emblematic]

Well, they are currently building more. So you would hope they would have the emissions sorted, or they will be joining the Afro 4000s in the parking lot.
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Just to clarify, the recent delivery of class 66s was the last allowed under the transition arrangements - and only then because the diesel engines were either shipped over before the deadline and shipped back, or reclaimed from written-off locos. Anything new from now on should meet 3B regulations.

 

[D365]

Same story for the Class 68s I believe, engines were fabricated before the end of 2014.

 

[Emblematic]

Same story for the Class 68s I believe, engines were fabricated before the end of 2014.

There are 17 more on order, 7 of which were ordered in July 2015. That brings the total to 32, they were only allowed 26 in the transition period from 2012. It's possible the first 10 may only be 3A compliant, if as you say the diesel engines were made and registered in time. They would have had to be pretty swift, the order was only confirmed in Sept. 2014. The last 7 and any more orders must be 3B.
The 28 class 66s delivered since 2012 included 2 reclaimed engines, using another loophole in the regs.

 

[northwichcat]

Apparently the 68s are to be a short term solution until the new stock is introduced and they'll be hauling existing unpowered vehicles (not 442s) and the long term solution involves powered vehicles capable of 125mph on all services (bar the ones operated by 185s.)

 

[sprinterguy]

Apparently the 68s are to be a short term solution until the new stock is introduced and they'll be hauling existing unpowered vehicles (not 442s) and the long term solution involves powered vehicles capable of 125mph on all services (bar the ones operated by 185s.)

interesting; if this be so, I wonder what rolling stock will actually be available during the (short) timescales involved? Outside of the 442s, I didn't think that there'd be much hauled-stock going spare before 2018.

 

[CosherB]

interesting; if this be so, I wonder what rolling stock will actually be available during the (short) timescales involved? Outside of the 442s, I didn't think that there'd be much hauled-stock going spare before 2018.

WCRC air-con Mk2s?

 

[D6975]

The 'extra' mk3s out of GWR HSTs when shortened for Scotrail, converted to conventional ETS?

 

[sprinterguy]

The 'extra' mk3s out of GWR HSTs when shortened for Scotrail, converted to conventional ETS?

Which won't be available until the tail end of 2017 at the earliest, which doesn't really fit the timescales for a "temporary" measure.

 

[notlob.divad]

Apparently the 68s are to be a short term solution until the new stock is introduced and they'll be hauling existing unpowered vehicles (not 442s) and the long term solution involves powered vehicles capable of 125mph on all services (bar the ones operated by 185s.)

Isn't there a Bi-mode version of the 68? The Class 88? If what you say is true and I have no reason to doubt you, does that mean that the new Bi-modes will be Class 88s so they are compatible with the same stock or am I reading too much into it?

Looking again at the 'Promises' on the timeline. There seems to be an awful lot of 'Increased Capacity', new 'trains' (which many people would read as a new service even if it was on an carriages). All of this whilst the existing 185s are being refurbished. Is this the problem that they need a short term solution for?

 

[sprinterguy]

Isn't there a Bi-mode version of the 68? The Class 88? If what you say is true and I have no reason to doubt you, does that mean that the new Bi-modes will be Class 88s so they are compatible with the same stock or am I reading too much into it?

While DRS have suggested that the class 88 will be able to be used as a mainline diesel loco, the 940hp power unit does not strike me as being appropriate for North Transpennine while it remains unelectrified, and they won't be capable of 125mph.

 

[notlob.divad]

Which won't be available until the tail end of 2017 at the earliest, which doesn't really fit the timescales for a "temporary" measure.

The tail end of 2017 is when the chord is 'due' to be complete and aligns with the first "Increased Capacity" promise and Newcastle gets a 2nd Tph to Manchester (Presumably airport, but turned back at Victoria if the work on the Chord overruns.

The 'temporary measure' only needs to start in December 2017 because before then the only TPE 'promise' is Free Wi-fi on the stations.

 

[northwichcat]

The 'temporary measure' only needs to start in December 2017 because before then the only TPE 'promise' is Free Wi-fi on the stations.

Or is it? We're yet to discover the solution to what will cover the 4 x 170s leaving TPE in July. There's been rumours 2 North West 185s will replace them with the Northern franchise needing to plug the gap but we don't know for certain that will be the case.

A temporary measure starting TPE in December 2017 would presume the first of the new trains won't arrive as quickly as TPE promised in their franchise announcement.