New Ticket Design Launched

[benk1342]

But, as per usual, a change was made and no one asked train crew.:roll:

Surely some level of consultation was undertaken with train crew (though obviously not with every single member of staff)? I would expect that there were representatives or focus groups from on-train staff consulted. If not, that is shocking.

 

[crehld]

I'm just gonna say it, but as someone who looks at these for a living, I hate the new style tickets. When your doing what could be known as a high speed ticket check (12 busy coaches in 15-25 mins) (Ecr-Gtw-HHe), your looking for 5 main things, class, destination, station from,date and type of ticket. On the old tickets these can be spotted in a glance. The new ones with their tiny writing, some all squished in a corner are just a pain. With the classic style, when someone is being a bit slow getting their ticket out, you can even glance over seats at other tickets, the new ones, nope. Great if you have time to walk through your train and stamp or clip each ticket checking each ticket in detail, not so good when time is not on your side.

But, as per usual, a change was made and no one asked train crew.:roll:

To be fair I don't think the new design was supposed to benefit staff, but to make things easier for passengers to understand (although it's debatable if it's really achieved that).

That said, on the examples I have, the text for the the destination, station from, date and ticket type is at least the same size (if not bigger) than the original design.

I think as the examples on this thread show there are some serious issues with consistency in how the new design is implemented.

 

[jon0844]

I'm just gonna say it, but as someone who looks at these for a living, I hate the new style tickets. When your doing what could be known as a high speed ticket check (12 busy coaches in 15-25 mins) (Ecr-Gtw-HHe), your looking for 5 main things, class, destination, station from,date and type of ticket. On the old tickets these can be spotted in a glance. The new ones with their tiny writing, some all squished in a corner are just a pain. With the classic style, when someone is being a bit slow getting their ticket out, you can even glance over seats at other tickets, the new ones, nope. Great if you have time to walk through your train and stamp or clip each ticket checking each ticket in detail, not so good when time is not on your side.

But, as per usual, a change was made and no one asked train crew.:roll:

A lot of the problems are down to the terrible fonts and how thin they are. On the really dot matrix style printers, I guess that's a limit that can't be fixed without changing the printer - but on other machines, surely a cleaner, bolder, font can be used that can be read from more of a distance.

Even having key information that staff look for in bold would surely help?

It's a shame that there is no way to print colour on tickets, which could then be blank (bar any security features in the paper itself) which would have allowed colour coding that could have been used for different ticket types, including discounts, advance/restricted tickets etc.

That obviously means replacing all printers, but perhaps it's something to think of as and when printers will need replacing?

Surely some level of consultation was undertaken with train crew (though obviously not with every single member of staff)? I would expect that there were representatives or focus groups from on-train staff consulted. If not, that is shocking.

There are so many different types, I wonder what staff were actually shown - and how it matches the reality of what people are getting shown 'in the field'.

Many tickets shown here aren't even good for the passenger, who has text overlapping other text. It looks amateurish at best, and confusing at worse (where text is near impossible to read - especially where overlapping occurs with the rear text actually 'cut out'.). Any half decent software should be able to prevent overlapping by text wrapping if necessary. I mean, it seems clear that text is going to overlap given the design - so how can that have made it to the software rolled out to machines?

 

[cf111]

The machine facing the front entrance at Inverness is now spitting the new design out, at least for collections.

 

[infobleep]

A lot of the problems are down to the terrible fonts and how thin they are. On the really dot matrix style printers, I guess that's a limit that can't be fixed without changing the printer - but on other machines, surely a cleaner, bolder, font can be used that can be read from more of a distance.

Even having key information that staff look for in bold would surely help?

It's a shame that there is no way to print colour on tickets, which could then be blank (bar any security features in the paper itself) which would have allowed colour coding that could have been used for different ticket types, including discounts, advance/restricted tickets etc.

That obviously means replacing all printers, but perhaps it's something to think of as and when printers will need replacing?



There are so many different types, I wonder what staff were actually shown - and how it matches the reality of what people are getting shown 'in the field'.

Many tickets shown here aren't even good for the passenger, who has text overlapping other text. It looks amateurish at best, and confusing at worse (where text is near impossible to read - especially where overlapping occurs with the rear text actually 'cut out'.). Any half decent software should be able to prevent overlapping by text wrapping if necessary. I mean, it seems clear that text is going to overlap given the design - so how can that have made it to the software rolled out to machines?

Perhaps wrapping the text wasn't in the contract. More likely there was a deadline or the price charged for the work was so low that they can't afford to do a decent job without losing money.

Another option is that the companies producing the machines know the TOCs have invested so heavily in their hardware, that they don't have to bother doing good job because the TOC is unlikely to go elsewhere due to the costs of changing the hardware.

 

[hassaanhc]

Anyone know if either Chiltern (at Marylebone) or Virgin Trains (at Birmingham New Street or Wolverhampton) still do Off Peak Returns in the old format? I can't stand the new format and would like to avoid them completely .
I know South West Trains still had the old format at Hounslow earlier in the week (for Anytime Day Return and their Summer Promotion), maybe using one of their ticket offices is the safest idea? :P

Thanks in advance

 

[mbreckers]

Anyone know if either Chiltern (at Marylebone) or Virgin Trains (at Birmingham New Street or Wolverhampton) still do Off Peak Returns in the old format? I can't stand the new format and would like to avoid them completely .
I know South West Trains still had the old format at Hounslow earlier in the week (for Anytime Day Return and their Summer Promotion), maybe using one of their ticket offices is the safest idea? :P

Thanks in advance

The new design is getting rolled out nationwide, so no matter where you get your ticket from it will eventually be in the new format

 

[TEW]

For now though you won't get the new format from any SWT ticket office or ticket machine, so Hounslow would be a safe option.

 

[trainophile]

Picked up some new-style (the almost illegible ones) tickets at Hereford today, and didn't even get a Collection Receipt. Seemed very strange just getting two tickets for a return journey that used to come out as at least five.

I double checked in the machine's tray but there was definitely no receipt. Hard luck for anyone needing one for their expenses claim.

 

[causton]

Picked up some new-style (the almost illegible ones) tickets at Hereford today, and didn't even get a Collection Receipt. Seemed very strange just getting two tickets for a return journey that used to come out as at least five.

I double checked in the machine's tray but there was definitely no receipt. Hard luck for anyone needing one for their expenses claim.

An expenses claim for something that was free?

The receipt would be the email confirmation they got, or similar through an online website. Our collection receipts would not be accepted for expense claims unless your company was very stupid as you did not spend any money with us - it just claims you did another time!

 

[mbreckers]

An expenses claim for something that was free?

The receipt would be the email confirmation they got, or similar through an online website. Our collection receipts would not be accepted for expense claims unless your company was very stupid as you did not spend any money with us - it just claims you did another time!

An email can be easily altered by anyone. More difficult to forge a ticket

 

[causton]

An email can be easily altered by anyone. More difficult to forge a ticket

Even easier to pick up someone else's collection receipt out the machine when they never take them! Then submit it, as it has no info of what journey you've booked

 

[mbreckers]

Even easier to pick up someone else's collection receipt out the machine when they never take them! Then submit it, as it has no info of what journey you've booked

good point

 

[hassaanhc]

For now though you won't get the new format from any SWT ticket office or ticket machine, so Hounslow would be a safe option.

In the end I decided to take a chance with Marylebone, as going via Waterloo was an enormous time penalty that I really didn't want.

The ticket office was issuing in the new format but the machines still used the old format. Then later at Birmingham New Street the machines still used the old format. However, I asked Virgin beforehand, and they said that their stations were still using the old format and are to be switched over soon.

It did surprise me though that the New Street ticket machines now allow you to change the origin station (not all Virgin ones appear to allow it, as I tried at Macclesfield later and there was no such option).

 

[andrewkeith5]

An expenses claim for something that was free?



The receipt would be the email confirmation they got, or similar through an online website. Our collection receipts would not be accepted for expense claims unless your company was very stupid as you did not spend any money with us - it just claims you did another time!

Where I work it's a printout of the email receipt plus the collection receipt, to prove you at least picked up the tickets and so have a much smaller chance of having them refunded at the companies cost - it's almost completely impossible to provide the actual tickets nowadays thanks to the stupid ticket machines that take them!

 

[Hadders]

Where I work it's a printout of the email receipt plus the collection receipt, to prove you at least picked up the tickets and so have a much smaller chance of having them refunded at the companies cost - it's almost completely impossible to provide the actual tickets nowadays thanks to the stupid ticket machines that take them!

I've said this before but many companies have a higher threshold when it comes to claiming expenses for rail travel compared to road travel. I really don't know why this is the case.

Consider a business trip by car. You simply provide a petrol receipt to cover the mileage claimed. There is no way anyone can verify whether you actually travelled or by what route (other than your physical presence at the place you claimed you travelled to).

With rail many companies want receipts and physical tickets. Some claim this is an HMRC requirement. This is not true as there's no VAT to claim back on rail fares - it's simply down to the internal policy of the company concerned. If they're prepared to believe someone who drove to a meeting why do many companies insist on a higher burden of proof when it comes to rail?

 

[island]

The one and only root answer is that policy is like organisational scar tissue.

Reasons I've heard include "to make sure you didn't travel somewhere else", "to verify you didn't travel 1st class", and "because receipts don't prove anything". All of which are a nonsense.

 

[northwichcat]

The one and only root answer is that policy is like organisational scar tissue.

Reasons I've heard include "to make sure you didn't travel somewhere else", "to verify you didn't travel 1st class", and "because receipts don't prove anything". All of which are a nonsense.

I think the potential issues with receipts are:
1. If you return the ticket to the employer they can be sure you haven't submitted it for Delay Repay as yourself instead of the company or obtained a refund.
2. If some employers switch to accepting receipts and some still only accept tickets then it's possible a claim could be made for the same ticket to two different companies - one with the ticket and one with the receipt.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If they're prepared to believe someone who drove to a meeting why do many companies insist on a higher burden of proof when it comes to rail?

Indeed. The person who went to the meeting by car could also claim the quickest route was not the shortest in miles or that they had to take a diversion and would probably get the extra expense.

 

[trainophile]

I think the going rate for mileage expenses is around 45p a mile, or it was last time I gave it any attention. With enough notice, it could be possible to obtain an Advance train ticket at your own cost, then claim that you had driven, and make a profit!

 

[Metrailway]

I've said this before but many companies have a higher threshold when it comes to claiming expenses for rail travel compared to road travel. I really don't know why this is the case.

Consider a business trip by car. You simply provide a petrol receipt to cover the mileage claimed. There is no way anyone can verify whether you actually travelled or by what route (other than your physical presence at the place you claimed you travelled to).

With rail many companies want receipts and physical tickets. Some claim this is an HMRC requirement. This is not true as there's no VAT to claim back on rail fares - it's simply down to the internal policy of the company concerned. If they're prepared to believe someone who drove to a meeting why do many companies insist on a higher burden of proof when it comes to rail?

Actually it is a requirement for companies to have rail receipts for employee business travel. Companies may not be able to claim back VAT on rail travel but they can deduct it as an expense on their Corporation Tax return.

 

[lejog]

I've said this before but many companies have a higher threshold when it comes to claiming expenses for rail travel compared to road travel. I really don't know why this is the case.

Consider a business trip by car. You simply provide a petrol receipt to cover the mileage claimed. There is no way anyone can verify whether you actually travelled or by what route (other than your physical presence at the place you claimed you travelled to).

With rail many companies want receipts and physical tickets. Some claim this is an HMRC requirement. This is not true as there's no VAT to claim back on rail fares - it's simply down to the internal policy of the company concerned. If they're prepared to believe someone who drove to a meeting why do many companies insist on a higher burden of proof when it comes to rail?

There are very strict HMRC requirements regarding receipts for expenses. It is nothing to do with VAT and all to do with Income Tax and National Insurance. Receipts prove to the HMRC that the expense occurred and is not being just a scam between the employer and the employee to pay income free of tax and NI on the employee's part and NI on the employer's side.

Obviously a receipt for car mileage is not possible to provide for employees who use their own car. Companies are in theory allowed to pay as much as they like, but anything over 45p per mile plus 25p per mile over 10,000 miles is treated as taxable income. When compared with the AA's costs of running a car, including standing charges and depreciation, the HMRC limits are not at all favourable.

 

[trainophile]

There are very strict HMRC requirements regarding receipts for expenses. It is nothing to do with VAT and all to do with Income Tax and National Insurance. Receipts prove to the HMRC that the expense occurred and is not being just a scam between the employer and the employee to pay income free of tax and NI on the employee's part and NI on the employer's side.

Obviously a receipt for car mileage is not possible to provide for employees who use their own car. Companies are in theory allowed to pay as much as they like, but anything over 45p per mile plus 25p per mile over 10,000 miles is treated as taxable income. When compared with the AA's costs of running a car, including standing charges and depreciation, the HMRC limits are not at all favourable.

Unless it's a company car or leased by the company, and the only out-of-pocket expense for the driver is fuel.

 

[Metrailway]

Unless it's a company car or leased by the company, and the only out-of-pocket expense for the driver is fuel.

Not my area of expertise but I believe the 45p per mile allowance is for the use of the employee's own car for business use.

If an employee is using a company car the mileage rate paid by the employer must not be more than the cost incurred by the employee i.e a lot less than 45p per mile.

 

[lejog]

Actually it is a requirement for companies to have rail receipts for employee business travel. Companies may not be able to claim back VAT on rail travel but they can deduct it as an expense on their Corporation Tax return.

Yes this is true. Where I work not only do we have HMRC keenly interested directly with the business expenses paid with the aim of charging tax and NI if they see any possibility, but expenses form part of the business overheads and so may be subject to audit by the auditors who sign off the accounts, which if they show a profit are subject to Corporation Tax collected by HMRC.

 

[island]

Actually it is a requirement for companies to have rail receipts for employee business travel.

Source please.

 

[Metrailway]

Source please.

https://www.gov.uk/running-a-limited-company/company-and-accounting-records

Accounting records

You must keep accounting records that include:

• all money received and spent by the company
• details of assets owned by the company
• debts the company owes or is owed
• stock the company owns at the end of the financial year
• the stocktakings you used to work out the stock figure
• all goods bought and sold
• who you bought and sold them to and from (unless you run a retail business)

You must also keep any other financial records, information and calculations you need to complete your Company Tax Return. This includes records of all money:

• spent by the company, eg receipts, petty cash books, orders and delivery notes
• received by the company, eg invoices, contracts, sales books and till rolls

You must also keep any other relevant documents, eg bank statements and correspondence.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/chmanual/CH11400.htm

CH11400 - Record Keeping: What records must be kept: Company records

Company law specifies the accounting records that a company must keep. If a company complies with these requirements, it is highly likely that it will also comply with the requirements of tax law.

Every company must keep adequate accounting records. These are records that are sufficient

• to show and explain the company’s transactions, and
• to enable the directors to ensure that any accounts that must be prepared comply with the requirements of the Companies Act 2006.

In particular, accounting records must contain

• entries from day to day of all sums of money received and expended by the company and the matters in respect of which the receipt and expenditure takes place, and

 

[maniacmartin]

Receipts fine, but the source doesn't say tickets have to be kept

 

[island]

Receipts fine, but the source doesn't say tickets have to be kept

Precisely what I was going to say.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Incidentally, Chiltern are now issuing tickets in the new format on one of the windows (the one on the extreme left) at Marylebone. Don't have a scan of one to upload, alas...

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The East Coast SSTMs at Leeds are also issuing them, complete with a QR code on if I remember correctly. Despite some of the text being very small, the layout and clarity is one of the best I have seen.