New stations for Leeds

[Spod]

Neither the tram nor the trolleybus schemes were routed anywhere near Morley. As I recall it had three lines out from the centre; south to Stourton, north-east past St. James's Hospital and north/north-west past the university with a possibility of extending to the airport. I'm surprised the trolleybus saw such organised resistance, clearly a successful campaign was waged against it.
For those saying tram / trolleybus resurrection is the answer, the money had to be spent by 2021 so there wasn't time to develop and deliver a new scheme from scratch with this money. Hence the focus on bus improvements and rail improvements using existing lines that can be delivered while the money is available.
Decent loops at White Rose may have helped its case for inclusion, they must have come to an agreement that dealt with the main objections from the new stations report. The full report to be released later today may have more details, if they've set a budget they must have some idea of what additional signalling and track work is required beyond building the station itself. At least in terms of number of platforms / lines involved.
Both Thorpe Park and White Rose are on busy lines, but adding loops could improve rail congestion overall despite the extra stops.

 

[bluenoxid]

It would be interesting to see if Network Rail has had much engagement over these proposals

So, looking at these proposals,

Leeds-Bradford Parkway on the Harrogate line. Unless they build a Big station, which can take a new service, which runs from Leeds-Bradford Parkway to Leeds, then I can't see how the stoppers are going to handle an extra stop. It's busy at quiet times.

If the Harrogate line goes up to 4tph, many of those concerns should be removed.

The stopper is being withdrawn. Local calls will be made by TPE semi-fasts (which may well still be overtaken). Westbound services have ample opportunity to overtake at Mirfield but Eastbound only has the short loop at Dewsbury at present, which is only used for overtaking at times of disruption. If loops were to be provided at a new WRC station it could cope with only having a loop on the Down but ideally would be longer than just the platform length to minimise delays to stopping services. Proximity to Morley and Cottingley would still be an issue though. Ideally Leeds would have a tram system serving Morley town centre which would allow the inconveniently placed Morley Low station to close. With all the recent house building at Cottingley, that station probably has more potential for growth than Morley.

It would be interesting to see if this proposal ends up closing Cottingley.

Agreed. The bus to Lulsgate Airport, similarly on a hill, remote from Bristol, has an excellent coach service from the centre through Temple Meads, every 10 mins all day, and all night at lower frequency.

I am surprised Leeds doesn't think more imaginatively.

I dont think that a faster bus would do any better on the extremely congested roads around this airport and leading into Leeds.

 

[Grumpy]

.



I dont think that a faster bus would do any better on the extremely congested roads around this airport and leading into Leeds.

What extremely congested roads? Along the A65 yes, but Otley road's not bad.

Forty minutes in an express bus in the peak should be feasible, 25 minutes off peak. Lets compare with a train. Allow 5 minutes for a shuttle bus from the airport to the new station, 10 minutes from the bus to the platform and wait the arrival of a DMU , then 20 minutes on the DMU into Leeds. So in the peak there's not much in it and the bus is quicker for most of the day-and no need to hump your bags off and on and stand around in the cold awaiting the connecting train.

Let's face it this is simply a vanity project and the money could be better spent elsewhere. I do accept the potential in attracting commuters into Leeds from Yeadon/Bramhope/Otley etc but it should be properly ranked against the likes of Haxby/CrossHills etc.
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If you read the article, the answers there, there's a large budget to be spent by 2021!

That shouldn't be a problem for Leeds. They could easily spend that on installing lots more unnecessary traffic lights at roundabouts and also providing cycle lanes that will hardly be used

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It would be interesting to see if Network Rail has had much engagement over these proposals



If the Harrogate line goes up to 4tph, many of those concerns should be removed.



It would be interesting to see if this proposal ends up closing Cottingley.



I dont think that a faster bus would do any better on the extremely congested roads around this airport and leading into Leeds.

If a White Rose station had been planned and built 15+ years ago, closure of Cottingley may well have been worthwhile even though it only opened in the early 1990s. There's been massive housing development on the Down side of the station in the last few years though, which is why if one of COT or MLY needed to be sacrificed to allow for White Rose, I'd suggest Morley be the one closed. If the White Rose station were towards the Morley end of the centre (not ideal for bus interchange, mind) with possibly additional car parks and road access from the Down side of the line to act as a parkway for Morley, it would be no less inconvenient than the existing MLY station.

I don't think LCC have studied the franchise agreements for the TPE and Northern service arrangements when proposing a White Rose Centre station. On loops or not, the additional stop and more importantly the additional usage would test the capacity of the TPE semi-fast services. As mentioned upthread, this money has to be used within the next few years so the council have come up with proposals for using it. Some or all of these proposals may never leave the drawing board. I can't see a White Rose station being workable unless those franchises are ripped up and started again- and with stock already ordered the penalties for that would be huge.

 

[WestRiding]

People do not like buses. People are put off public transport when it involves a change from a train to a bus. Bus is ok for 5 mins to get from the Parkway to the Airport, but 40 mins on a cramped bus, with umpteen suit cases? I would sooner sit in traffic in my own car and pay for the airport car park.

 

[Spod]

Let's face it this is simply a vanity project and the money could be better spent elsewhere. I do accept the potential in attracting commuters into Leeds from Yeadon/Bramhope/Otley etc but it should be properly ranked against the likes of Haxby/CrossHills etc.

The money needed to be spent in the Leeds metropolitan area. The council did a big consultation, with over 7500 responses, and held a conference with Network Rail and local rail, bus and other "stakeholders". This is what they came up with, as the best solution for Leeds available within the constraints of how much money was available and how it could be spent. I'm sure Network Rail would have told them if this was completely unworkable. What we'll probably find is that the £90 million or so being spent on these rail improvements may not deliver all the loops and four tracking that this scheme ideally needs to realise its full potential. I don't think they will close any stations to make capacity for these new ones, however. I believe that Leeds City Council prefers to avoid political suicide!☺EDIT: As per below, part of the deal is to invest in Morley station so closing that is clearly off the cards.
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The formal press release and links to full details. Apologies for the long quote, but I understand that's the rules!

The Leader of Leeds City Council has vowed to continue to call for more funding for transport in the city and region after releasing the new Leeds Transport Strategy today.

Council Leader Councillor Judith Blake confirmed providing a mass transit service in Leeds remains a key aim for the city and wider city region, after announcing a range of measures to invest £270million in public transport in Leeds over the next four years.

The headline elements of the strategy include providing a parkway rail connection to Leeds Bradford Airport for the first time, along with additional new rail stations at the White Rose Centre and Thorpe Park and improved accessibility at Cross Gates, Morley and Horsforth stations.

Enhancing bus and park and ride provision is a key section of the strategy, with over £110m to be invested in a range of infrastructure improvements supported by £71m from First West Yorkshire to provide at least 284 new low-emissions buses by the end of 2021. Currently 250,000 bus journeys are made every day in Leeds, and the measures outlined being part of an aim to double the numbers of bus passengers in the next 10 years.

The improvements in the strategy have been identified from trends in more than 8,000 responses received in the transport conversation this summer. The £270m total investment includes the £173.5m of Department of Transport funding secured following the decision not to proceed with the New Generation Transport (NGT) trolleybus, with this funding needing to be invested in public transport before the end of 2021. The additional funding comes from First West Yorkshire, West Yorkshire Combined Authority and private developer contributions.

Leader of Leeds City Council Councillor Judith Blake said:

“This investment in public transport and the new Leeds Transport Strategy is hugely important for us to make deliverable changes to make a big difference in the immediate and short term, especially as we need to have spent the £173.5m of government funding by 2021.

“The investment now is a response to the action people told us they wanted to see delivered as soon as possible, but as a city and for the regional economy we continue to need a viable mass transit system which benefits all communities in Leeds and will boost growth and onward connectivity. Mass transit systems can cost around £80million per kilometre and take a long time to plan and deliver, so such a scheme was not possible with the current level of funding available and also the timescale the government set us.

“To bring about such a scheme must remain the ambition so we are calling on all key partners and everyone in the city to work together to secure the very significant amount of funding we need.

“Funding levels for transport in London and the south continue to dwarf those offered to the north, so while we are delighted with this latest investment and are very grateful to all our partners, we know we must keep pushing for the ultimate aim of providing the fully integrated 21st century transport network Leeds and the wider city region needs and deserves.”

Apart from the major investment in rail, bus and park and ride provision, the new Leeds Transport Strategy includes encouraging people to cycle and walk more, through less congested roads and improved air quality along with improved city centre spaces and enhanced facilities in district centres.

Along with the city centre package which aims to improve public spaces by reducing the dominance of vehicles as part of the preparations for high-speed rail, the new strategy includes creating modern transport interchanges around Vicar Lane, the Headrow and Infirmary Street/Park Row.

To encourage more cycling participation, Leeds is committed to continuing to improve cycling infrastructure in the city, with £35m being invested in the mostly government-funded City Connect cycling superhighway in the city. Development of the Leeds core cycle network is also ongoing.

The new transport strategy is based around three overall objectives:

Prosperous Leeds – More people using a modern and attractive bus service and greater access to the rail network will enable the city to better accommodate growth. Improving the city centre environment will help attract new businesses and improve the city’s readiness for future opportunities such as HS2 and the European Capital of Culture.
Liveable Leeds – The improvements to the city centre and district centres will make them more people friendly. People will have access to a wider labour market. The significant programme of projects will support new opportunities for skills development and new and better local jobs. People of all abilities will have more opportunities to connect to the rail network.
Healthy Leeds – People-friendly streets encourage more walking and cycling whilst improvements to our bus fleet and more people travelling by public transport will improve air quality and reduce carbon emissions.
The proposals in the strategy build on recent successes such as the Park and Ride site at Elland Road, the opening of Leeds Southern Station Entrance and Kirkstall Forge Rail Station, quality bus corridors and significant junction improvements. More is planned over the coming years through the West Yorkshire Transport Fund including the opening of Temple Green Park and Ride next year.

The strategy has been supported and guided by the West Yorkshire Combined Authority and the new Leeds transport advisory panel. The panel is chaired by Director of Strategy for Transport for the North Nigel Foster and includes leading transport experts and senior figures from transport bodies and organisations, along with representatives from the worlds of business, education, planning, accessibility, equalities and campaign groups.

It also forms part of the wider regional strategic economic plan which aims to deliver up to 36,000 new jobs and an additional £3.7billion of economic output by 2036 in the Leeds City Region.

Chair of the Leeds Transport Advisory Panel Nigel Foster said:

“These proposals will deliver improvements for journeys in Leeds and act as a strong foundation to build a long-term plan to transform transport in Leeds. The panel’s next step is to support partners in the city to deliver these shorter-term measures, while developing the innovative and ambitious future plan that will help Leeds achieve good economic growth and open up opportunities for all.”

The proposals and strategy will be considered by senior councillors at next week’s executive board meeting at Civic Hall on Wednesday 14 December. If approved, the proposals for the £270m investment will then go to the Department of Transport for its consideration. The transport conversation will continue next year on the longer-term transport strategy for Leeds.

To see the new Leeds Transport Strategy and supporting documents as part of the executive board agenda, visit democracy.leeds.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?MId=7526&x=1&

Notes to editors:

The full list of members of the transport advisory panel can be seen at www.leeds.gov.uk/transportconversation

The document here explains more about the decisions and the process that led to them.
A couple of interesting items from the linked documents. 3.15 suggests they're keen on tram or light rail rather than trolleybus.

The Council’s ambition remains to have a system that can transport large numbers of
people through the city through some form of mass-transit – be that light rail, tram-train
or tram – to support sustainable economic growth. Development of options has
already started with work commissioned through WYCA to review city region
connectivity. A more focussed review of options within the Leeds boundary will be
started in the New Year.

3.43 - yes, they did talk to Network Rail.

The inclusion of the rails stations within this programme will help focus partners to
accelerate delivery. Leeds City Council will continue to work with WYCA, Network
Rail, Rail North, DfT and the private sector to build on the feasibility work already
undertaken, carry out consultation and seek dedicated resources to aid scheme
delivery and set out how they fit with other plans for the network.

And finally, their justification for the three stations proposed:

3.45 A parkway at Leeds Bradford Airport has the advantage of utilising the existing Leeds
Harrogate line and being capable of delivery at significantly less cost than a rail halt
immediately adjacent to the airport terminal due to the challenging topography that
would otherwise have to be addressed. It is also aligned with plans for major new
commercial development adjacent to the airport and, as a strategic rail park & ride for
outer North West Leeds and commuters from neighbouring districts, which would
increase its patronage and enhance the business case. Taking account of all of these
factors this option is considered to be a more deliverable proposition in the medium
term, which would not obviate the potential for a rail halt adjacent to the terminal over
the long-term should airport passenger numbers justify a business case for such a
proposal.
3.46 White Rose is already an important centre for retail and jobs. Major employers at the
White Rose Office Park includes HSBC and O2. In addition proposals are also coming
forward for a 6th form college on the site. The retail centre is also expanding, including
a new cinema and restaurants and the provision of a new rail halt at White Rose will
complement existing use, planned growth and the new housing outlined in the
Council's Site Allocations proposals.
3.47 Thorpe Park is also set to expand. Planning consent has been given for new a retail
and cinema development as well as new housing. In addition, the provision of a new
bridge over the railway to link in Manston Lane in the North will help facilitate further
housing coming forward and will be the southern spur to the East Leeds Orbital which
will facilitate a further 5,000 houses in the East Leeds Extension. The land to the north
of railway is owned by Leeds City Council which facilitates the provision of strategic
rail park & ride, which will help stimulate development at Thorpe Park and improve
connectivity to Leeds city centre and further locations on the trans-pennine route.

Sorry for the mega-post!
FINAL EDIT (promise!): buried in an appendix, a somewhat more readable proper draft of the Leeds Transport Strategy that this is a major part of:
http://democracy.leeds.gov.uk/documents/s152793/Transport%20Report%20Appendix%20B%20061216.pdf

 

[bluenoxid]

What extremely congested roads? Along the A65 yes, but Otley road's not bad.

Forty minutes in an express bus in the peak should be feasible, 25 minutes off peak. Lets compare with a train. Allow 5 minutes for a shuttle bus from the airport to the new station, 10 minutes from the bus to the platform and wait the arrival of a DMU , then 20 minutes on the DMU into Leeds. So in the peak there's not much in it and the bus is quicker for most of the day-and no need to hump your bags off and on and stand around in the cold awaiting the connecting train.


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The buses are using the A65.

Forty minutes should be feasible but it regularly isn't with reliability concerns. The A65 is usually hit badly.

Bus, upto 20 minute wait if they are running. 40 minute ride into town if there are no issues

Train, shuttle bus up to 15 minute wait dependent on integration, 5 ride on the bus, 5-10 on the platform and 20 into town.

Train places you on the correct side of the barriers for ongoing journeys by rail.

 

[superkev]

're the proposed airport station the roads proposed for the shuttle bus will need some serious costly upgrading and its green belt too.
Now if you wanted to do the job right as the Germans seem to do how about something bold and probably unaffordable.
I.e.a tunnel from north of horsforth station under the airport (station) joining up with the old Yeadon branch an then the line to Guisley.
Leeds Ilkley trains could then run via Horsorth - airport - Yeadon - Guisley
Unaffordable sadly but they do have was it £230million left.
K

 

[Spod]

The airport won't get its own line unless both usage and projected increase in usage are substantially greater than they are now - the numbers don't justify the cost yet, especially given that the cost will be a lot greater than plain line across flat fields would be.

 

[deltic08]

If the Harrogate line goes up to 4tph, many of those concerns should be removed

A new Parkway station near Bramhope tunnel is a complete nonsense. Harrogate Chamber of Trade complains at poor services to Harrogate from Leeds taking 38 minutes now for only 18 miles and at the same time campaigns for this additional station that will mean 40 minutes from Leeds.

Harrogate Chamber again campaigned for the two additional trains from Leeds to Harrogate each hour from December 2017. These were planned as express services of 26 minutes stopping only at Horsforth followed by a Horsforth-Leeds all stations shuttle. This is why the turnback siding was renewed at Horsforth at great cost of £8m when Leeds-Harrogate was resignalled in Autumn 2013. An additional Parkway stop was not even considered.

Substituting Parkway for Horsforth of the express services is a no go because the site it too deep below mean ground level for a turnback siding here to run a shuttle without major earth removal of thousands of tons.

The same would be said for a car park close to a Parkway station. The ground from the railway to airport at this point averages 1 in 6 gradient with the airport 350 feet higher than the railway and a good mile distant. A hairy journey by connecting bus in the snow!!

RAF Church Fenton has been bought to convert to a commercial airport. Leeds/Bradford at 630 feet asl is regularly closed due to high crosswinds and low cloud. In a former life, I was stationed at RAF Church Fenton for six months and not a days flying was lost whilst there because of the lower altitude. The airport terminal will be close enough to Church Fenton station to be connected by a bridge and moving walkway as at Manchester. This could make a Parkway station at Cookridge and Leeds/Bradford airport superfluous.

12,000 houses are being built each side of the former Cross Gates-Wetherby line. I have repeatedly written to Leeds City Council about reinstating this line for a couple of miles with stations at the former Penda's Way and a Parkway station on the A64 instead of at Micklefield. This could be done for £20-£30m with access for 40,000 people without having to drive to Thorpe Park but reinstatement is a word WYCA do not understand. They think this volume can be bussed into Leeds in the peaks without difficulty.

 

[bluenoxid]

Personally, I could see the benefits of moving the main airport for serving Leeds to Church Fenton. The new North Yeadon housing estate would still benefit greatly from North Yeadon Parkway.

I can understand the push for speed but four trains per hour will vastly outweigh the journey time benefits that you have noted and the additional connectivity will make the area even more desirable.

I see the benefits of using the former Wetherby line. Personally, I think it will be a light rail/concrete based guideway system rather than a railway line.

I am aware of the site limitations for the proposed railway station at the airport and look forward to seeing the councils proposals for this.

 

[Bantamzen]

RAF Church Fenton has been bought to convert to a commercial airport. Leeds/Bradford at 630 feet asl is regularly closed due to high crosswinds and low cloud. In a former life, I was stationed at RAF Church Fenton for six months and not a days flying was lost whilst there because of the lower altitude. The airport terminal will be close enough to Church Fenton station to be connected by a bridge and moving walkway as at Manchester. This could make a Parkway station at Cookridge and Leeds/Bradford airpor.

Church Fenton, or Leeds East as it is known is simply not going to become a replacement for LBA. There sinply isn't the money or will beyond the pipe dreams of a few Leeds councillors to even get such a scheme off the ground. LBA will be West Yorkshire's airport for a long time to come, so it makes sense to explore options to improve connectivity to the rail.network.

 

[Holmevalley]

White Rose Centre station......who would use it? If you are in Leeds why would you think it a good idea to hop on a train to go to an out of town shopping centre when most of the stores are available in Leeds? Like wise coming from the other direction why would you get off there when one stop further brings you to Leeds with all its added benefits? (Proper restaurants, real pubs, better choice of shops etc).

WRC is designed for car access so you can take your purchases home without having to lug them onto a train or bus.....whilst the shopping centre undoubtably does well they should name the station White Elephant Halt. The trains now, and will be even with the new stock and services, are busy....so unless they do improve the capacity further this can only make the journeys more depressing than they are now

 

[noddingdonkey]

White Rose Centre station......who would use it? If you are in Leeds why would you think it a good idea to hop on a train to go to an out of town shopping centre when most of the stores are available in Leeds? Like wise coming from the other direction why would you get off there when one stop further brings you to Leeds with all its added benefits? (Proper restaurants, real pubs, better choice of shops etc).

WRC is designed for car access so you can take your purchases home without having to lug them onto a train or bus.....whilst the shopping centre undoubtably does well they should name the station White Elephant Halt. The trains now, and will be even with the new stock and services, are busy....so unless they do improve the capacity further this can only make the journeys more depressing than they are now

White Rose is perhaps of more use to people from other areas than Leeds, here in Huddersfield for example where the council seems hell-bent on killing the town centre.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

 

[bradders1983]

A new Parkway station near Bramhope tunnel is a complete nonsense. Harrogate Chamber of Trade complains at poor services to Harrogate from Leeds taking 38 minutes now for only 18 miles and at the same time campaigns for this additional station that will mean 40 minutes from Leeds.

Harrogate Chamber again campaigned for the two additional trains from Leeds to Harrogate each hour from December 2017. These were planned as express services of 26 minutes stopping only at Horsforth followed by a Horsforth-Leeds all stations shuttle. This is why the turnback siding was renewed at Horsforth at great cost of £8m when Leeds-Harrogate was resignalled in Autumn 2013. An additional Parkway stop was not even considered.

Substituting Parkway for Horsforth of the express services is a no go because the site it too deep below mean ground level for a turnback siding here to run a shuttle without major earth removal of thousands of tons.

.

Apologies for being a bit thick, but why would a Harrogate-Leeds service stopping only at Horsforth and then all the stations between there and Leeds need to make use of any turnback siding at Horsforth? :?
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WRC is designed for car access so you can take your purchases home without having to lug them onto a train or bus.....whilst the shopping centre undoubtably does well they should name the station White Elephant Halt.

Meadowhall Interchange - over 2m users. Even at a quarter of that you could not consider a new station a "white elephant"

 

[philjo]

Apologies for being a bit thick, but why would a Harrogate-Leeds service stopping only at Horsforth and then all the stations between there and Leeds need to make use of any turnback siding at Horsforth? :?

It was proposed that most Harogate services would run fast from Horsforth to Leeds.
There would be an additional half-hourly stopping service starting at Horsforth that would call at Headingley and Burley Park - I think this was planned to run as a cross-city service through Leeds to the proposed East Leeds parkway that hasn't been built. THis service stopping would use the turnback at Horsforth.

 

[bradders1983]

It was proposed that most Harogate services would run fast from Horsforth to Leeds.
There would be an additional half-hourly stopping service starting at Horsforth that would call at Headingley and Burley Park - I think this was planned to run as a cross-city service through Leeds to the proposed East Leeds parkway that hasn't been built. THis service stopping would use the turnback at Horsforth.

Right I see, the last poster made it sound like Harrogate would be getting 4 services an hour:

Harrogate Chamber again campaigned for the two additional trains from Leeds to Harrogate each hour from December 2017

 

[Deerfold]

Right I see, the last poster made it sound like Harrogate would be getting 4 services an hour:

Harrogate will be getting 4 services an hour from next year.

 

[bradders1983]

Harrogate will be getting 4 services an hour from next year.

Right so once the 2 Leeds-Horsforth services are added on top of the two new Leeds-Harrogate services, the line will have SIX an hour?

Of these four Leeds-Harrogate services, only two will stop at all stations?

 

[Deerfold]

Right so once the 2 Leeds-Horsforth services are added on top of the two new Leeds-Harrogate services, the line will have SIX an hour?

Of these four Leeds-Harrogate services, only two will stop at all stations?

Northern's current commitment is to an extra 21 trains a day which must stop at Harrogate, Horsforth and Leeds (plus an extra train an hour on a Sunday). I'm not aware of any published details of these services - it's up to Northern and Network Rail if they stop anywhere else.

Just to throw extra fun in the works, 1 train path every 2 hours (6 a day) will be taken over by VTEC in 2019 for a through train to London, reducing Northern's commitment to 15 extra trains. These will definitely not stop at any of the smaller stations.

 

[bradders1983]

So why are people talking about Leeds-Horsforth only services then? Is this just the usual fantasy schedules that people like to indulge in on here, or is there any basis in fact for it?

 

[lejog]

A new Parkway station near Bramhope tunnel is a complete nonsense. Harrogate Chamber of Trade complains at poor services to Harrogate from Leeds taking 38 minutes now for only 18 miles and at the same time campaigns for this additional station that will mean 40 minutes from Leeds.

Harrogate Chamber again campaigned for the two additional trains from Leeds to Harrogate each hour from December 2017. These were planned as express services of 26 minutes stopping only at Horsforth followed by a Horsforth-Leeds all stations shuttle. This is why the turnback siding was renewed at Horsforth at great cost of £8m when Leeds-Harrogate was resignalled in Autumn 2013. An additional Parkway stop was not even considered.

Substituting Parkway for Horsforth of the express services is a no go because the site it too deep below mean ground level for a turnback siding here to run a shuttle without major earth removal of thousands of tons.

There are no turnback services specified in the Northern Franchise agreement - all services are contracted to run from Harrogate to Leeds.

The same would be said for a car park close to a Parkway station. The ground from the railway to airport at this point averages 1 in 6 gradient with the airport 350 feet higher than the railway and a good mile distant. A hairy journey by connecting bus in the snow!!

Nonsense, having plotted a route on an electronic map, its a climb of 75m over 3km to the terminal - the line is at 125m above sea level and the airport terminal 200m. There's no road at present between the line and the charmingly named Scotland to the west, but the area between the proposed station and the airport is marked in the report as a development area, so presumably approprate infrastructure is planned.
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So why are people talking about Leeds-Horsforth only services then? Is this just the usual fantasy schedules that people like to indulge in on here, or is there any basis in fact for it?

Not in the Franchise train service requirements (TSR 3 weekdays). From 2017 Northern have to run 24 trains calling at Harrogate, Horsforth and Leeds between 10am and 4pm and 12 trains calling at the other stations between Harrogate and Leeds. By 2019 3 of the fast services will be replaced by two hourly VTEC services.

Edit corrected 2017 and 2019 figures.

 

[Spod]

Regardless of the relative attractions of the airport, White Rose centre and Thorpe Park retail, erm, park, I think all three stations will be very well used as parkway stations. To take Thorpe Park as an example, it's about 10 minutes from Leeds by rail, and will probably be under £4 anytime return. By car from there in rush hour, it's about 45 minutes plus cruising for a parking space, which costs anywhere from £3.50 on the edge to £6+ in the centre. Unless you're car sharing, it's a no-brainer for commuters. It'll also help with the new jobs and houses springing up around those stations.
To me the great unknowns are around service patterns and frequencies, impact on service to other stations along the line, and impact on fast services and freight paths. Give it another year and we should have much more info - NPR and TP upgrade should have come up with at least a draft design by then, and we should be 6 months into design work on these three stations as well (the aim is to have the money in place to get started in April). At least these stations will now be taken into account as they work out what's required to deliver the desired outputs.
Deltic08, I don't think this money could have been used for reinstatement, as they needed to spend it all before 2021. Same with mass transit for Leeds - they couldn't get it done in that timescale, so it will have to wait until new funding can be found with more time to spend it.

 

[HowardGWR]

I see the point about park and ride but what will the Authority do about charging (or not) for parking? OOT Shopping's chief selling point is free parking. Presumably the shops pay for the car parks through their lease. I doubt they would be in favour of commuters taking up space, although in my view, that is very shortsighted, especially if these centres have grocery halls.
I found the view about OOT centres being for people with cars a bit 'let them eat cake' to non-car users, and was interested to see it debunked by the Meadowhall example.

 

[Deerfold]

're the proposed airport station the roads proposed for the shuttle bus will need some serious costly upgrading and its green belt too.
Now if you wanted to do the job right as the Germans seem to do how about something bold and probably unaffordable.
I.e.a tunnel from north of horsforth station under the airport (station) joining up with the old Yeadon branch an then the line to Guisley.
Leeds Ilkley trains could then run via Horsorth - airport - Yeadon - Guisley
Unaffordable sadly but they do have was it £230million left.
K

Of the original £270 million, £71 million is investment from First in new buses (70 a year for 4 years).

 

[Spod]

Of the original £270 million, £71 million is investment from First in new buses (70 a year for 4 years).

£71M First buses
£173.5M government
Leaves £25.5M raised from other sources

£180M spent on buses
Leaves £90M spent on trains, including 3 stations getting accessibility improvements and 3 new stations. Can anyone give an idea of what they could afford to do with that £90M budget? What does a new station cost, what do accessibility improvements cost, and how much would be left to improve the track layout with loops etc? Would they just pay for the stations and car parks and leave the tracks to be funded by Network Rail (possibly subsidised to bring NR costs down to the threshold where it makes more sense to do this than something else)?

 

[philjo]

So why are people talking about Leeds-Horsforth only services then? Is this just the usual fantasy schedules that people like to indulge in on here, or is there any basis in fact for it?

THey were proposed about 10 years ago.
the installation of the Horsforth Turnback was mentioned in this Network Rail document from 2008

The proposal was to create additional capacity on hte Harrogate trains by allowing Horsforth, Headingley & Burley Park passengers to use the stopper

The problem was although the turnback was upgraded, Northern did not have any spare DMUs to introduce the additional service. I see that network rail document also proposed to wire Armley junciton to Horsforth to allow EMUs to run the service - presumably as it would be in conjunction with east leeds Parkway and it was planned for that to be wired to ECML but as we know that line still hasn't been wired.

 

[deltic08]

Apologies for being a bit thick, but why would a Harrogate-Leeds service stopping only at Horsforth and then all the stations between there and Leeds need to make use of any turnback siding at Horsforth?

If Harrogate-Leeds express trains twice an hour run non-stop Horsforth-Leeds then a train will run from Horsforth to Headingley, Burley Park, Leeds following. This train will layover in the turnback siding on the Harrogate side of Horsforth having provided an all stations service from Leeds immediately ahead of the Leeds-Horsforth-Harrogate train.

Personally I think all Harrogate-Leeds trains should run non-stop Horsforth-Leeds on this line to reduce Harrogate-Leeds journey time and overcrowding between Horsforth and Leeds. This would give Horsforth, 1.2m footfall annually, 8 trains an hour to/from Leeds.
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The proposal was to create additional capacity on the Harrogate trains by allowing Horsforth, Headingley & Burley Park passengers to use the stopper

The problem was although the turnback was upgraded, Northern did not have any spare DMUs to introduce the additional service. I see that network rail document also proposed to wire Armley junciton to Horsforth to allow EMUs to run the service - presumably as it would be in conjunction with east leeds Parkway and it was planned for that to be wired to ECML but as we know that line still hasn't been wired.

We do have DMUs now as most trains on the Harrogate Loop run as 2x 2-cars. These could be split using 2-cars on Leeds-Harrogate-York and 2-cars Leeds-Horsforth-Leeds even in the peaks. According to ORR station usage figures for 2015/16 just published, growth on this line is within West Yorkshire. North Yorkshire stations usage has declined in the last twelve months particularly Harrogate.

I would say the shortage now is drivers and conductors.
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Of the original £270 million, £71 million is investment from First in new buses (70 a year for 4 years).

Are these electric buses? TfN are very concerned about air quality in urban areas. All diesel engines produce particulates that are carcinogenic.

More urgent than stations at OOT shopping centres is a station adjacent to Leeds Parish church/bus station and large areas of employment within walking distance of this point. This would require viaduct and embankment widening between Leeds station and Marsh Lane cutting to allow overtaking of stopping trains by non-stop trains. It is being done for the Ordsall Curve including a bridge for £80m so could be done here for similar.

 

[Spod]

Are these electric buses? TfN are very concerned about air quality in urban areas. All diesel engines produce particulates that are carcinogenic.

More urgent than stations at OOT shopping centres is a station adjacent to Leeds Parish church/bus station and large areas of employment within walking distance of this point. This would require viaduct and embankment widening between Leeds station and Marsh Lane cutting to allow overtaking of stopping trains by non-stop trains. It is being done for the Ordsall Curve including a bridge for £80m so could be done here for similar.

I think the buses will be like the new Arriva ones, diesel hybrids using the latest low emission engines with electric motors for setting off, meaning the diesel engine can be turned off every time the bus stops and it can set off or crawl in slow traffic and only turn on the engine over a certain speed (quite low, maybe 5-10 mph).

I think the choice of stations was significantly influenced by their ability to remove cars from the city centre. An extra station in the city centre, while convenient for bus users, would do little to help vehicle pollution. Plus the viaduct probably couldn't have been done in the budget / timescales.

 

[Deerfold]

Are these electric buses? TfN are very concerned about air quality in urban areas. All diesel engines produce particulates that are carcinogenic.

First's press release (with nothing in the "news" section of their website...) at

https://www.firstgroup.com/leeds/ne...llion-bus-improvements-proposed-new-transport

says they will be Euro VI or zero-emission leaving some scope for types of bus.