New Signalling, ROC's

[Trestrol]

Tyneside became a ROC itself about a year ago. I think that might now be the long term intention.

It is, it also had the operating floor increased in size this year to take more workstations. This will eventually allow Morpeth, Alnmouth, Tweedmouth and the West Line to be added. The Blyth and Tyne will be added soon. There is talk of control of some lines being switched from York as well. York ROC is rammed as they seriously underestimated the amount of space needed.

 

[The Planner]

I can't remember if I've mentioned this before, but is there any sense in opening a new control centre for HS2 at Washwood Heath, when its area could be added to the NR West Midlands or Rugby control centres for the reduced scope of the HS2 project?
It would be just adding a new leg to the WCML control system.
I can hear HS2 Ltd being aghast in the background, especially as the Washwood Heath centre has just begun building...

As it is there will be 3 strategic control centres close together - WMSCC (Saltey), WMCL (Rugby) and HS2 (Washwood Heath).
And isn't part of the Cross-city line still controlled from Aston?

No room. Saltley is full/space for Aston i believe. Marston Vale, E-W going into Rugby. Colwich into Rugby in Feb.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Dec 2023 ==

In much of the world ROCs would be seen as quaint and highly decentralised.

In the US there would be a single control complex for a UK sized rail system. Indeed the bulk of the control staff at BNSF are in the same room!

The current UK signalling system is extremely labour intensive which is hardly ideal given huge labour costs in the rail industry.

But you don't believe that the railway can do big projects, so what incentive is there to remove all the smaller boxes?

 

[Annetts key]

In much of the world ROCs would be seen as quaint and highly decentralised.

In the US there would be a single control complex for a UK sized rail system. Indeed the bulk of the control staff at BNSF are in the same room!

The current UK signalling system is extremely labour intensive which is hardly ideal given huge labour costs in the rail industry.

Have you ever visited the operating floor of a busy PSB or signalling centre?

Already in this country there are thousands of route miles that are controlled by automatic signals, and just supervised by signallers.

It's the junctions, complex stations, freight facilities (including train depots) and level crossings that take up the signallers time. And we do have rather a lit of all these in this country.

Signallers can spend large amounts of time dealing with other railway staff (control, fault control, drivers, shunters, other train crew, station staff, S&T, P.Way, E&P, ECOs, other engineering staff, staff from other railway companies etc) or with level crossing users (if they supervise any level crossings). These communications can take up just as much, if not more of a signallers time, than actually signalling trains. And that's if there are no incidents or failures on the signallers 'patch'.

Throw in a failure or incident, and the workload on the signaller increases significantly.

 

[swt_passenger]

It is, it also had the operating floor increased in size this year to take more workstations. This will eventually allow Morpeth, Alnmouth, Tweedmouth and the West Line to be added. The Blyth and Tyne will be added soon. There is talk of control of some lines being switched from York as well. York ROC is rammed as they seriously underestimated the amount of space needed.

I know the area north and west of Newcastle was earmarked to transfer, but any transfer of lines nearer York, eg including Teesside and having the boundary at say Northallerton, will lead to an odd situation where York is right on the edge of its whole area.

 

[HSTEd]

But you don't believe that the railway can do big projects, so what incentive is there to remove all the smaller boxes?

Well part of me wonders "how badly could it really go?" when I think about building a "Railway Pentagon".

I know the answer is probably "very badly indeed", but the potential long-term operational conveniences do seem rather compelling.

(In essence, a building with a floor area large enough to accomodate all signalling and electrical control workstations, as well as the various TOC control rooms etc. As well as training and welfare facilities for the same)

 

[WAB]

Well part of me wonders "how badly could it really go?" when I think about building a "Railway Pentagon".

I know the answer is probably "very badly indeed", but the potential long-term operational conveniences do seem rather compelling.

(In essence, a building with a floor area large enough to accomodate all signalling and electrical control workstations, as well as the various TOC control rooms etc. As well as training and welfare facilities for the same)

It's unlikely you'd be able to find enough suitable candidates willing/able to be signallers within reasonable driving distance to cover such a large number of workstations. Given that route and service controls would be in this Pentagon, the railway would be crippled in the event of a fire or similar, or even just a fire alert.

 

[Trestrol]

I know the area north and west of Newcastle was earmarked to transfer, but any transfer of lines nearer York, eg including Teesside and having the boundary at say Northallerton, will lead to an odd situation where York is right on the edge of its whole area.

Yes but when the Durham coast line was resignalled it was added to York. It may make more sense to add this to TSC.
And remember the whole point of a ROC was that you could control another ROCs lines if needed. So York could control Cardiff for instance.

 

[HSTEd]

It's unlikely you'd be able to find enough suitable candidates willing/able to be signallers within reasonable driving distance to cover such a large number of workstations.

All at once, perhaps, but is it would take decades for the glacial resignalling programme to move everyone into the building.

Given that route and service controls would be in this Pentagon, the railway would be crippled in the event of a fire or similar, or even just a fire alert.

The railway is already crippled if a critical signalling centre or control point goes out of service thanks to how cross coupled the system is.
In any case, there exist standards for large buildings that allow fire alarms to not require evacuation of the entire building.

You could partition the signalling control areas such that a fire evacuation cannot disable all of them, and indeed provide a spare control area for training and use in such an emergency.

 

[GardenRail]

Yes but when the Durham coast line was resignalled it was added to York. It may make more sense to add this to TSC.
And remember the whole point of a ROC was that you could control another ROCs lines if needed. So York could control Cardiff for instance.

At York ROC on my link, I currently sign 5 Workstations. Sheffield, Rotherham, North Lincolnshire, Huddersfield, and the Sheffield Outer after completing my training last week on it.

So are we suggesting that I should also competently sign 5 Workstations in Cardiff ROC, Manchester or wherever? I know my workstations like the back of my hand. How would you maintain training and competency on Workstations that may only have the need to be worked by someone else once a decade.

The whole idea from the start was an unworkable fantasy. Thwarted by the needs of local knowledge and Signalling Training/Competency.

When Signallers don't regularly work a job, the chance of mistakes goes up significantly.

 

[Trestrol]

I agree with what you say but the principle of the ROCs was that they could cover for each other in an emergency.

 

[Annetts key]

Trying to get signallers to operate any work station would be like trying to get train drivers to sign for all lines in mainland UK....

It's certainly possible to see a difference between a signaller who knows an area well compared to a less experienced signaller, who does not know the area so well. The experienced signaller will be able to maximise the use of the lines, routes, points etc. and know the length of time it takes trains to pass through a section. Whereas, a less experienced signaller will be far more conservative.

There are also practical technical problems with creating one super ROC. Yes, it's possible in theory. But in practice, the number of problems outweigh any possible advantages.

Plus, and this is an important point, Network Rail does not have, and the railway is never likely to have the money available to do this, even if it wanted to.

As it is, the different routes are using devolution to make their own decisions. ETCS is likely to be delayed further, as the money for this is coming from different sources, and some of these projects now have less money in CP7 than expected. So, less or no money for new expensive big ROCs.

 

[Horizon22]

I can't remember if I've mentioned this before, but is there any sense in opening a new control centre for HS2 at Washwood Heath, when its area could be added to the NR West Midlands or Rugby control centres for the reduced scope of the HS2 project?
It would be just adding a new leg to the WCML control system.
I can hear HS2 Ltd being aghast in the background, especially as the Washwood Heath centre has just begun building...

As it is there will be 3 strategic control centres close together - WMSCC (Saltey), WMCL (Rugby) and HS2 (Washwood Heath).
And isn't part of the Cross-city line still controlled from Aston?

It certainly could be, albeit a separate floor / room / area. That’s what TfL have done with the Elizabeth line. I’ve always found it odd that Saltley & Rugby weren’t combined, let alone the operators also being in over additional buildings!

 

[Elecman]

It certainly could be, albeit a separate floor / room / area. That’s what TfL have done with the Elizabeth line. I’ve always found it odd that Saltley & Rugby weren’t combined, let alone the operators also being in over additional buildings!

WMSCC at Saltley was supposed to eventually transfer to Rugby ROC

 

[Backroom_boy]

I agree with what you say but the principle of the ROCs was that they could cover for each other in an emergency.

yes i agree staff in an another ROC just wouldnt have the knowledge/experience to pick up another area. But could it be done technically so if the staff physically move from one out of action ROC to one still running; service could be resumed?

 

[Llanigraham]

Well part of me wonders "how badly could it really go?" when I think about building a "Railway Pentagon".

I know the answer is probably "very badly indeed", but the potential long-term operational conveniences do seem rather compelling.

(In essence, a building with a floor area large enough to accomodate all signalling and electrical control workstations, as well as the various TOC control rooms etc. As well as training and welfare facilities for the same)

I really don't think you realise just how big an area of floorspace even a small regional operating centre takes up.
I've "sat in" at Machynlleth with just 2 control desks and that was bigger than I expected. I've also visited the Wales ROC and that is much bigger.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Dec 2023 ==

yes i agree staff in an another ROC just wouldnt have the knowledge/experience to pick up another area. But could it be done technically so if the staff physically move from one out of action ROC to one still running; service could be resumed?

Do you realise just how far apart some of the ROCs are?
If, as you suggest, at the time of an incident (say) Cardiff went down the nearest other ROC at present would be Reading. Do you expect them to drive that far for a shift?

 

[HSTEd]

I really don't think you realise just how big an area of floorspace even a small regional operating centre takes up.
I've "sat in" at Machynlleth with just 2 control desks and that was bigger than I expected. I've also visited the Wales ROC and that is much bigger.

The Pentagon covers 600,000 square metres of floor space with 360,000 square metres of offices.
The office space is roughly a square 600m to a side.
25000 people work in the building.

That would be around a quarter of the entire employment of the rail industry!

 

[Llanigraham]

The Pentagon covers 600,000 square metres of floor space with 360,000 square metres of officers.
The office space is roughly a square 600m to a side.

And as has been pointed out, the American system of signalling is nothing like ours, so the comparison is invalid.

 

[HSTEd]

And as has been pointed out, the American system of signalling is nothing like ours, so the comparison is invalid.

The Pentagon is not a railway facility? It is a military installation and one of the largest office buildings in existance.

The York ROC has apparently got 87 people on shift at once, maximum.

It is also the largest of the ROCs.
Even if you employ 20 or 30 times that many people in a national centre, you are looking at being a small fraction of the size of the Pentagon in floor space.

There seems to be no technical reason you couldn't concentrate everyone in a single building/complex.

EDIT:
Three Bridges ROC apparently has about ~7,000m2 of floor space (including everything), compared to 600,000 for the Pentagon.

EDIT #2: However I have realised this is not a Speculative thread, so I will now shut up.

 

[Meerkat]

What physically is a ROC?

For context, I worked in finance so there were regulations about what Disaster Recovery set up we had.
When I first took part in a DR test the DR site was in glorified portakabins out the back of IBM Greenford, about 20 miles from our office.
The contract was that IBM could immediately make available X desks supplied with X ‘empty’ PCs, plus printers, faxes etc, with X being the minimum possible number of staff we could cope with for a short while. Plus they supplied a set number of phone lines and they/us/BT had a secure data link ready to go.
Day 1 IT took the empty IBM PCs and loaded them with the software we used, Day 2 we turned up and got on with work (it was never ready when we got there on tests).

So, for a ROC could you take an empty office floor with a secure data line, unbox a load of new workstations, stick a thumb drive in with the particular dataset for the one you were replicating (or is it some kind of cloud so just sign the workstation into the hub), then off you go…..assuming enough staff have survived the disaster that befell the stricken ROC?

 

[Horizon22]

WMSCC at Saltley was supposed to eventually transfer to Rugby ROC

Yes exactly - “supposed to”…

 

[Llanigraham]

I do wonder whether some of the non-railway members realise just how large and complex even a small ROC is.
This is just one of the 2 control desks at Machynlleth, possibly the coast section to Pwllheli, plus behind this is a Shift Managers Desk with a couple of terminals.
There was a suggestion at one time that this could all be moved down to Cardiff, but I seem to remember that they then found there wasn't room for them down there.

 

[Western 52]

Interesting to see that despite all the technology, there's still plenty of paperwork in evidence!

 

[Annetts key]

What physically is a ROC?

So, for a ROC could you take an empty office floor with a secure data line, unbox a load of new workstations, stick a thumb drive in with the particular dataset for the one you were replicating (or is it some kind of cloud so just sign the workstation into the hub), then off you go…..assuming enough staff have survived the disaster that befell the stricken ROC?

No.

I do wonder whether some of the non-railway members realise just how large and complex even a small ROC is.
This is just one of the 2 control desks at Machynlleth, possibly the coast section to Pwllheli, plus behind this is a Shift Managers Desk with a couple of terminals.
There was a suggestion at one time that this could all be moved down to Cardiff, but I seem to remember that they then found there wasn't room for them down there.

And that photo doesn't show the equipment room...

The railway uses railway specific equipment, not normal PCs. A lot of the railway specific equipment is not the workstation that you see signallers using in photos. It's normally mounted in rows of 19 inch cubicles/racks and uses the railways own telecommunication cables. Plus there is specific equipment for the telephones and even more if there are CCTV level crossings...

Here's a photo showing an equipment room before all the equipment has been installed:

Rail Engineer also has a photo showing equipment racks in their article here.

 

[Llanigraham]

The railway uses railway specific equipment, not normal PCs. A lot of the railway specific equipment is not the workstation that you see signallers using in photos. It's normally mounted in rows of 19 inch cubicles/racks and uses the railways own telecommunication cables. Plus there is specific equipment for the telephones and even more if there are CCTV level crossings...

That is one of the actual desks at Machynlleth, and was one I worked under supervision when I officially visited there.
The four screens above the 5 track screens are the level crossing screens, and the equipment on the far left is the telephone unit for any user worked crossings, of which there are a lot!

Interesting to see that despite all the technology, there's still plenty of paperwork in evidence!

I think this was when the system was first being introduced, so there was at that time a lot of paperwork around. Last time I was there it was less; mostly the current WON and any special notices.

To be fair, even in a mechanical box there isn't much paperwork around now.

 

[Trestrol]

The size of the equipment in the equipment room at York ROC is one of the problems with it. I think anticipated equipment renewals didn't happen so the size of it didn't shrink. This they didn't have the anticipated space they thought. Also COVID showed why having all your eggs (signallers) in basket (ROC) was a bad idea.

 

[Horizon22]

Interesting to see that despite all the technology, there's still plenty of paperwork in evidence!

Some things are easier to track by pen & paper, particularly notes from telephone calls. Paper copies of things like the PON/WON might be evident or any specific station workings.

 

[Western 52]

Some things are easier to track by pen & paper, particularly notes from telephone calls. Paper copies of things like the PON/WON might be evident or any specific station workings.

Indeed, the paperless office remains a myth! Does the railway still use fax machines?

 

[Horizon22]

The size of the equipment in the equipment room at York ROC is one of the problems with it. I think anticipated equipment renewals didn't happen so the size of it didn't shrink. This they didn't have the anticipated space they thought. Also COVID showed why having all your eggs (signallers) in basket (ROC) was a bad idea.

From my understanding social distancing in many cases was a flimsy plastic barrier…

Most signaller & controller desks take up 3+ screens plus the need for human factors (lighting, controls, monitor distance & height etc.) mean it does start to get large quite quick. Other desks can’t just be ‘tacked on’ easily.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Dec 2023 ==

Indeed, the paperless office remains a myth! Does the railway still use fax machines?

Incredibly rarely. Train crew diagrams might be sent in some places but normally they are just direct to a printer.

 

[The Puddock]

Indeed, the paperless office remains a myth! Does the railway still use fax machines?

The railway was a massive user of fax machine up until about 10 years ago but the ongoing transition of the railway‘s internal telecoms network to internet based VOIP sytems has meant that very few locations now have the ability to send or recieve faxes. The machines are still out there but the vast majority don’t work any more.

I used to love sending faxes.

 

[Western 52]

I remember when fax was new, with some of the questions from staff! Some had trouble working out how a piece of paper could travel via a phone line....