New Q&A for advance tickets

[OwlMan]

RDG have releasd a new updated "Advance Tickets" Q & A follwing the introduction of the NRCoT. A copy is attached.


Can an appropiate member of staff arrange to update the copy in the ticketing guide.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Very notable in that, don't know if it was there previously:

2). Once the journey has begun. If the passenger is delayed and the rail industry or its partners (as shown below) is at fault, which should be checked with your Control Office, change to another train of the same company is allowed to get them to their destination with the least delay.***
This is irrespective of combinations of rail tickets held. Examples are:

...

valid combination of Eurostar tickets into the UK and then either advance purchase tickets from London Terminals or “London Intnl CIV” or “London Eurostar CIV”.

So you *don't* need CIV to get protection against having to buy a new ticket.

 

[embers25]

It now says "Q: Can a passenger alight short of the destination on their Advance ticket, or board after the origin shown on their Advance ticket but on the same booked train?A: Although Advance tickets are intended to be used only between the origin and destination stations shown on the ticket, there may be occasions where a passenger joins the correct train but at a later station, or alights earlier than the indicated destination. Although this is not strictly in accordance with the rules for Advance tickets, the Rail industry has agreed that in such cases, no additional fare should be charged (unless there is clear evidence of intent to try and avoid a higher fare)."

That is a bit of a change although how evidence of intent is determined is key.

 

[30907]

So you *don't* need CIV to get protection against having to buy a new ticket.

I don't think that's new, but I don't think Eurostar are so generous in the reverse direction
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It now says "Q: Can a passenger alight short of the destination on their Advance ticket, or board after the origin shown on their Advance ticket but on the same booked train?A: Although Advance tickets are intended to be used only between the origin and destination stations shown on the ticket, there may be occasions where a passenger joins the correct train but at a later station, or alights earlier than the indicated destination. Although this is not strictly in accordance with the rules for Advance tickets, the Rail industry has agreed that in such cases, no additional fare should be charged (unless there is clear evidence of intent to try and avoid a higher fare)."

That is a bit of a change although how evidence of intent is determined is key.

I don't think that's new either.

 

[IanD]

I think this is new (can't find it in the version in the forum ticketing guide at least)

Q: What happens if a customers Railcard has expired but the discount is applied to an Advance?
A: The normal excess procedures should be applied to change the discounted ticket to the exact same ticket without discount. Journey Planners such as Fujitsu and the Fares Finder are useful tools for finding the ticket code used for the customers journey, based on the point-to-point journey and the price paid. See also Excess Fares Procedures pages for guidance.

 

[MikeWh]

It now says "Q: Can a passenger alight short of the destination on their Advance ticket, or board after the origin shown on their Advance ticket but on the same booked train?A: Although Advance tickets are intended to be used only between the origin and destination stations shown on the ticket, there may be occasions where a passenger joins the correct train but at a later station, or alights earlier than the indicated destination. Although this is not strictly in accordance with the rules for Advance tickets, the Rail industry has agreed that in such cases, no additional fare should be charged (unless there is clear evidence of intent to try and avoid a higher fare)."

That is a bit of a change although how evidence of intent is determined is key.

Usually it is where there are no advance fares to your destination but you get a much cheaper ticket for a further station which does have them. IIRC SWT offer advances to Brockenhurst and beyond, but if you want Southampton (and megatrain isn't available) you have to use a walk-up ticket.

Examples where it is fine are where the price to similar stations is the same, or it's cheaper to get a ticket to where you actually alight.

 

[father_jack]

Usually it is where there are no advance fares to your destination but you get a much cheaper ticket for a further station which does have them. IIRC SWT offer advances to Brockenhurst and beyond, but if you want Southampton (and megatrain isn't available) you have to use a walk-up ticket.

Examples where it is fine are where the price to similar stations is the same, or it's cheaper to get a ticket to where you actually alight.

There's a sale at GWR at present and last week way out in the "western region" where I sell tickets I had a character asking iff he could join the "same train" at Didcot or Reading with a £10 BTH-PAD or £5 OXF-PAD sale ticket...... He wasn't amused when I showed him the Q and A for advances because he was obviously going to gain from joining the journey en route.

 

[Elecman]

It now says "Q: Can a passenger alight short of the destination on their Advance ticket, or board after the origin shown on their Advance ticket but on the same booked train?A: Although Advance tickets are intended to be used only between the origin and destination stations shown on the ticket, there may be occasions where a passenger joins the correct train but at a later station, or alights earlier than the indicated destination. Although this is not strictly in accordance with the rules for Advance tickets, the Rail industry has agreed that in such cases, no additional fare should be charged (unless there is clear evidence of intent to try and avoid a higher fare)."

That is a bit of a change although how evidence of intent is determined is key.

Virgo WC certainly wont allow starting short on Lancaster Advances at Preston

 

[bb21]

Were you going by some personal experiences?

I thought recent threads on Preston v Lancaster fares issues were about Off-Peak Singles/Returns, not Advance fares.

 

[TMD Tom]

Regarding the use of more than one ticket to make a journey; what is the case for cross-London journey where each ticket is to/from London Terminals?

For example I expect the combination of Coventry to London Terminals with London Terminals to Brighton is counted as a single journey from Coventry to Brighton. As long as the minimum connection time is adhered to cross-London. Even though strictly speaking this doesn't follow RDG's simplistic A-B-C scenario.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Were you going by some personal experiences?

I thought recent threads on Preston v Lancaster fares issues were about Off-Peak Singles/Returns, not Advance fares.

I would expect[1] that Preston Advances are priced competitively with Preston walk-ups (i.e. Anytimes) but Lancaster ones much lower.

[1] That expectation may be false - Advances northbound from MKC in the evening peak are almost *never* priced lower than Off Peaks, which are valid. This makes First Class *very* expensive.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I think this is new (can't find it in the version in the forum ticketing guide at least)

Q: What happens if a customers Railcard has expired but the discount is applied to an Advance?
A: The normal excess procedures should be applied to change the discounted ticket to the exact same ticket without discount. Journey Planners such as Fujitsu and the Fares Finder are useful tools for finding the ticket code used for the customers journey, based on the point-to-point journey and the price paid. See also Excess Fares Procedures pages for guidance.

What this guide doesn't say is how this works once the journey has commenced, as excess fares in this way traditionally haven't been possible by mobile TIS. Avantix, for example, can't do an excess in this way. I haven't yet used any of the new systems though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What this guide doesn't say is how this works once the journey has commenced, as excess fares in this way traditionally haven't been possible by mobile TIS. Avantix, for example, can't do an excess in this way. I haven't yet used any of the new systems though.

I think there's a bit of an underlying "if they go to the ticket office before the journey starts" in that, I think, particularly as earlier in the document it refers again to excessing the discount away.

Would be nice to see that formalised for walk-ups too, provided it is done before boarding.

 

[yorkie]

I will update it soon, so if anyone wants to download a copy of the old version from our Fares Guide, please do so ASAP

 

[causton]

I think there's a bit of an underlying "if they go to the ticket office before the journey starts" in that, I think, particularly as earlier in the document it refers again to excessing the discount away.

Would be nice to see that formalised for walk-ups too, provided it is done before boarding.

Sorry to disappoint but Tribute doesn't either, as it insists on us making a new reservation.
This new FAQ will prompt me to ask questions as to what we actually do in this circumstance!

 

[Starmill]

I would expect[1] that Preston Advances are priced competitively with Preston walk-ups (i.e. Anytimes) but Lancaster ones much lower.

[1] That expectation may be false - Advances northbound from MKC in the evening peak are almost *never* priced lower than Off Peaks, which are valid. This makes First Class *very* expensive.

The Anytime Single from Preston to London is £175.50

Looking 6 months from now on Thursday 6th July:

0402# NA
0533 £125
0600 NA
0617* £82
0657 £125
0717* £82
0758 NA
0817* £82
0858 £42
0917* NA (Off-Peak Single £88.30)
0958 NA (Off-Peak Single £88.30)
1017* £22

# Change at Manchester Piccadilly
* Change at Crewe

Looking 4 months from now on Thursday 25th May:

0402# NA
0533 £125
0600 NA
0617* £82
0657 £125
0717* £82
0758 NA
0817* £82
0858 £42
0917* NA (Off-Peak Single £88.30)
0958 NA (Off-Peak Single £88.30)
1017* £22

# Change at Manchester Piccadilly
* Change at Crewe

I wouldn't call that 'competitive'. If one isn't willing to sacrifice approx 35 minutes by changing at Crewe (and the inconvenience of packing your stuff away and getting off, and then finding another seat etc - is that really what the business traveller wants?) it's a little crazy to book an Advance.

Looking at 3 months Thursday 20th April:

0402# NA
0533 £125
0600 £82
0617* £82
0657 £125
0717* £82
0758 £125
0817* £82
0858 £42
0917* NA (Off-Peak Single £88.30)
0958 £82
1017* £42

# Change at Manchester Piccadilly
* Change at Crewe

If anything, slightly better. A lack of availability for the 0402 could be down to Northern not making it available for booking. It's also worth noting that taking the 1017 from Preston does not get one to London until 1259. If anyone thinks my choice of dates is compromised feel free to post your own comparison.

The total lack of availability on the 0600 from Preston does seem a little strange as it's a 10 car south of Crewe - so a whole 8 standard class coaches - 1 more than an 11-car Pendo and 2 more than a 225 set. It does arrive at London Euston at 0834 through having called at Nuneaton - perhaps its standing from there?

 

[All Line Rover]

...Advances northbound from MKC in the evening peak are almost *never* priced lower than Off Peaks, which are valid. This makes First Class *very* expensive.

Not now that first class off-peak fares are available between MKC and most WCML destinations north thereof. £83.50 for a first off-peak single allowing travel on an evening meal service to Manchester, which if boarding 30 minutes earlier at Euston would be "peak" and thus cost £242? A bargain, I believe.

The fact that these fares are unregulated makes the generous off-peak restrictions all the more surprising.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The total lack of availability on the 0600 from Preston does seem a little strange as it's a 10 car south of Crewe - so a whole 8 standard class coaches - 1 more than an 11-car Pendo and 2 more than a 225 set. It does arrive at London Euston at 0834 through having called at Nuneaton - perhaps its standing from there?

It is the only train - a 5-car Voyager - to arrive in Euston between 8am and 9am to have come from Warrington and north thereof. It isn't surprising that it is busy. During that same period there are four 11-car Pendolinos from the West Midlands and three 11-car Pendolinos + one 9-car Pendolino from Manchester.

 

[Starmill]

It's only a 5 car from Warrington, Wigan and Preston, from where it leaves at relatively unsociable times. That said, it does seem like an omission that there are no direct trains whatsoever between 0600 and 0657.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

I think this is new (can't find it in the version in the forum ticketing guide at least)

Q: What happens if a customers Railcard has expired but the discount is applied to an Advance?
A: The normal excess procedures should be applied to change the discounted ticket to the exact same ticket without discount. Journey Planners such as Fujitsu and the Fares Finder are useful tools for finding the ticket code used for the customers journey, based on the point-to-point journey and the price paid. See also Excess Fares Procedures pages for guidance.

Wouldn't it be easier to apply an ad-hoc 50% supplement to whatever fare the customer paid to cover this, particularly if finding the right NLC codes proves problematic on-board the train...?

 

[Haywain]

Sorry to disappoint but Tribute doesn't either, as it insists on us making a new reservation.
This new FAQ will prompt me to ask questions as to what we actually do in this circumstance!

I presume that the TOC you work for hasn't thought of putting an Advance Excess ticket in the local tickets list so that this problem is not encountered.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I think this is new (can't find it in the version in the forum ticketing guide at least)

Q: What happens if a customers Railcard has expired but the discount is applied to an Advance?
A: The normal excess procedures should be applied to change the discounted ticket to the exact same ticket without discount. Journey Planners such as Fujitsu and the Fares Finder are useful tools for finding the ticket code used for the customers journey, based on the point-to-point journey and the price paid. See also Excess Fares Procedures pages for guidance.

Unfortunately, no-one has seen fit to adjust, or add to, the Excess Fares Procedures in iKB to enable only the difference to be paid where TOCs haven't already given instruction to their staff. I have seen that the Excess Fares section has been updated to take note of the National Rail Conditions of Travel (badly, very badly) so I can only presume that either they think the rules already allow it, or they think each company will have their own rules already.

I believe, however, that the presence of "normal excess procedures should be applied" means that although this is new to the FAQs, it doesn't actually change anything yet.

What this guide doesn't say is how this works once the journey has commenced, as excess fares in this way traditionally haven't been possible by mobile TIS. Avantix, for example, can't do an excess in this way. I haven't yet used any of the new systems though.

Doesn't say if there is a limit to how expired the railcard can be either. Really poorly thought out change to the guidelines.

Sorry to disappoint but Tribute doesn't either, as it insists on us making a new reservation.
This new FAQ will prompt me to ask questions as to what we actually do in this circumstance!

I can see a way that STAR (not STAR Mobile) can do it, but I have had no instruction to do it, or even how to do it.

Wouldn't it be easier to apply an ad-hoc 50% supplement to whatever fare the customer paid to cover this, particularly if finding the right NLC codes proves problematic on-board the train...?

Whilst it makes sense in theory, it's not that simple. Adding a 50% supplement could mean the passenger paying more, or less, than the undiscounted fare (though not by much). Also, there is distribution of revenue to consider.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Sorry to disappoint but Tribute doesn't either, as it insists on us making a new reservation.
This new FAQ will prompt me to ask questions as to what we actually do in this circumstance!

Unless you have an excess ticket set up as a local ticket type as VTEC do.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not now that first class off-peak fares are available between MKC and most WCML destinations north thereof. £83.50 for a first off-peak single allowing travel on an evening meal service to Manchester, which if boarding 30 minutes earlier at Euston would be "peak" and thus cost £242? A bargain, I believe.

The fact that these fares are unregulated makes the generous off-peak restrictions all the more surprising.

I wouldn't say most destinations. It seems to be most middle-distance destinations (Wigan seems to be the furthest north they go). That is a good point, though. I wonder if now this has been posted here we will see an amendment to a different restriction code?

They are also a bit pricey for a return journey (if doing an actual single journey they aren't much different in price from the Off Peak Single so are somewhat of a bargain there, as they appear to be single-journey priced - interesting that VT have chosen to do this commercially for this ticket).

The Standard ticket is regulated and is not permitted to have evening peak northbound restrictions from MKC.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Given the number of TOCs on Twitter claiming you only get delay protection on a "through ticket", I am glad the Q&A has clarified that this is totally and utterly wrong.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given the number of TOCs on Twitter claiming you only get delay protection on a "through ticket", I am glad the Q&A has clarified that this is totally and utterly wrong.

As this isn't in the NRCoT, can ATOC *actually* speak for the TOCs on this one?

 

[yorkie]

As this isn't in the NRCoT, can ATOC *actually* speak for the TOCs on this one?

"You may use two or more tickets for one journey" is in the NRCoT.

Delay Repay applies to journeys.

...there are two types of industry scheme for compensating passengers for a delay to their journey. These are the traditional ‘Charter ’ scheme , based on the arrangements set out in Condition 42 of the NRCoC, and the newer ‘Delay Repay’ scheme

GTR's franchise agreement (for example) defines “Delay Repay Compensation” as:

...compensation payable to a holder of a ticket when such holder’s journey is delayed..

Anyone who tries to claim otherwise is quite simply wrong!

 

[Tetchytyke]

I was referring not to Delay Repay, but to recent comments I've seen from TPE and VTEC that if you split advance tickets then, if the first train is late,
and you miss your second, then your second ticket is not valid.

This has always been wrong, and I'm glad the RDG have clarified it to be wrong.

 

[IanD]

I believe, however, that the presence of "normal excess procedures should be applied" means that although this is new to the FAQs, it doesn't actually change anything yet.

I think the phrase "to the exact same ticket without discount" is relevant. Previously, I've tried to get railcard discounted advances changed (due to railcard expiring and replacement being lost in the post) at Milton Keynes Central and have been told I would have to buy a whole new set of tickets or a new railcard. I chose to buy a new railcard on that occasion and luckily was able to get a refund on the replacement that went missing. Excessing away the discount would have cost about £8 in total over 3 tickets or buying a new single ticket would have been £58. Would have preferred the excess because at that point I didn't know whether I'd get a refund on the railcard.

 

[voyagerdude220]

I would expect[1] that Preston Advances are priced competitively with Preston walk-ups (i.e. Anytimes) but Lancaster ones much lower.

[1] That expectation may be false - Advances northbound from MKC in the evening peak are almost *never* priced lower than Off Peaks, which are valid. This makes First Class *very* expensive.

Apologies for being off topic, but I notice that VT have only introduced these new First Class off peak tickets between Euston and Preston/places south of Preston/Blackpool- i.e. not Lancaster or places north of Lancaster.

This means a First Class single on say today's 09:30 Euston to Preston would cost £125, but Euston to Lancaster £245- an extra £120 from Preston to Lancaster.

Also these fares only appear to be available from Euston/Watford, not Milton Keynes, so an off peak single from Milton Keynes to say Warrington £149.50, but from Euston £118.

 

[causton]

Regarding excessing railcard-discounted Advances to Public fare ones...

...it has been confirmed we don't have the capability to do it.
Hopefully some progress will be made!