New Overground line names progress?

[Buzby]

Brings a whole new meaning to ‘taking a Liberty’

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Before the Elizabeth line opened I was certain everyone would just carry on calling it Crossrail - it had been called that for over a decade, there were hoardings all over London with it written on, and there was even a couple of series of a TV show about Crossrail. But in the end it turned out that the vast, vast majority of people do not take any interest in such things, and for them calling it the Elizabeth line was completely natural. I suspect if I went around my office and asked everyone what it was called before, barely anyone would know.

I imaging this will be the case here too - the people who comment on a railway forum are probably not the most representative sample when it comes to knowing terms like the "North London Line". The majority of people don't have much interest in the historical vaguaries of railways, and if it says Mildmay on the platform, the maps, the announcements, (and most crucially) their phone maps, that is almost certainly what they will call it.

L

Before the Elizabeth line opened I was certain everyone would just carry on calling it Crossrail - it had been called that for over a decade, there were hoardings all over London with it written on, and there was even a couple of series of a TV show about Crossrail. But in the end it turned out that the vast, vast majority of people do not take any interest in such things, and for them calling it the Elizabeth line was completely natural. I suspect if I went around my office and asked everyone what it was called before, barely anyone would know.

I imaging this will be the case here too - the people who comment on a railway forum are probably not the most representative sample when it comes to knowing terms like the "North London Line". The majority of people don't have much interest in the historical vaguaries of railways, and if it says Mildmay on the platform, the maps, the announcements, (and most crucially) their phone maps, that is almost certainly what they will call it.

But also people think it is genuinely another tube line.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I like the Suffragette line. Only thing is it's replacing arguably the most known Overground line (the GOBLIN), which'll take getting used to.

Is there a connection in the local area to the suffragette movement? Bit like how the Lioness line is the one through Wembley Central.

The official explanation is that one of the liongest lived sufragettes lived in Barking. But near the other end of the line is Holloway, where quite a number of suffragettes spent some time as unwilling "guests" of His Majesty.

 

[Horizon22]

Strangely enough, I only know it as the "Elizabeth Line" (or the "Elizabeth line Line" if I'm in a particularly jolly mood)! As does everyone I know who uses it, which I found quite surprising - I thought people would still call it Crossrail.

A family friend is an engineer who worked on the project, and we still say that she "worked on Crossrail", never that she "worked on the Elizabeth Line". Come to think of it, I haven't a clue why. I wonder whether a similar dynamic - a differentiation between the line and the system - will persist with these new Overground names? Thinking of the matter a little further, I wonder whether the Elizabeth Line will come to be regarded as an Overground line in the future, assuming Crossrail 2 never comes to pass?

The engineering project is/was Crossrail, the service is the Elizabeth line. So yes she didn't work on it after it switched into an actual passenger mode.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2024 ==

But also people think it is genuinely another tube line.

TfL does differentiate it slightly ("Good service on London Underground, DLR, Overground, Elizabeth Line and Trams") but you are right people think it is the Underground - not least those who like to blame TfL for issues on Network Rail parts of the route that have existed for 100+ years"

I don't think the Overground will have the same problem, but it was always going to be an issue whichever way it was decided to go with it because the status quo is a fudge but individually naming does have the risk of losing some identity although the original mockups which combine the two are reasonably smart and if there's one thing TfL is very good at, it is branding.

 

[vuzzeho]

Windrush Line branding visible at Surrey Quays. The sticker for the unbranded map is peeling off already! I've already started calling it the Windrush line, it's just easier.

 

[renegademaster]

I thought I'd still call it crossrail, but after following the signs to get to the platforms for a few months, "Elizabeth Line" just implanted itself in my brain naturally. But it's still XR as well, because that's what realtime trains uses (for the same reason, West Midlands Railway still maps to LM in my head, and so on).

Pdf timetables still often have Avanti as VT when including connections

 

[Bletchleyite]

Pdf timetables still often have Avanti as VT when including connections

VT is still used for Avanti, and LM for West Midlands Trains, and indeed GR (from GNER) for LNER, AW for Transport for Wales etc, because apparently it's hard coded in too many places to be worth changing. Though I did once briefly see WCnnnn on the side of a Pendolino so it's clearly possible to change it there!

To be fair airline 2 digit codes often bear no resemblance to the airline's name, e.g. U2 for easyJet (I wonder if Stelios was a fan?) and FR for Ryanair ("F****** Ryanair" maybe? )

 

[Horizon22]

VT is still used for Avanti, and LM for West Midlands Trains, and indeed GR (from GNER) for LNER, AW for Transport for Wales etc, because apparently it's hard coded in too many places to be worth changing. Though I did once briefly see WCnnnn on the side of a Pendolino so it's clearly possible to change it there!

To be fair airline 2 digit codes often bear no resemblance to the airline's name, e.g. U2 for easyJet (I wonder if Stelios was a fan?) and FR for Ryanair ("F****** Ryanair" maybe? )

As is XR for Elizabeth line and LE for Greater Anglia. As you say these things are hard coded.

 

[duffield]

VT is still used for Avanti, and LM for West Midlands Trains, and indeed GR (from GNER) for LNER, AW for Transport for Wales etc, because apparently it's hard coded in too many places to be worth changing. Though I did once briefly see WCnnnn on the side of a Pendolino so it's clearly possible to change it there!

To be fair airline 2 digit codes often bear no resemblance to the airline's name, e.g. U2 for easyJet (I wonder if Stelios was a fan?) and FR for Ryanair ("F****** Ryanair" maybe? )

A few years back before I retired, a small part of my job was adding new 2-letter codes to one of the railway computer systems. I will add that it was nothing to do with me that they were almost impossible to change subsequently, that was due to original design choices many years before that I was not involved in.

The "correct" choice for something like this would typically be to have some sort of internal non-meaningful operator code (maybe just a 16 bit integer) and then have a translation table for display and input purposes. Then you could change (say) "LM" to "WM" without much difficulty.

On the other hand, if you're using those 2 letter codes frequently, it's quite useful that they don't change when the operator does, even though they end up being inappropriate.

Anyhow, back on-topic, putting aside the actual meaning of the names, my assessment of the usability is as follows:

Weaver, Liberty - Roll off the tongue just fine with or without the added "line"
Mildmay, Windrush - Slightly awkward with or without the "line", due to the tiny pause after the "d"
Sufragette - A bit of a mouthful with or without the "line"
Lioness - Slightly awkward without the "line"; tends to end up as the somewhat odd "Lioness Lion" if you add the "line"

Yesterday I used Southern's Watford Junction to East Croydon service (for the first time), so that includes a bit of Lioness and some Mildmay (which makes me think of a herbal remedy).

 

[Basil Jet]

At Harringay Green Lanes the westbound platform has a vinyl sticker showing the line to Gospel Oak, and also showing the Stratford - Richmond line emanating from Gospel Oak (you can see something similar at https://maps.app.goo.gl/kE1ohYijAVMzeLAP6 ). However the new map underneath the vinyl only shows the line to Gospel Oak, with a "Mildmay" interchange label at Gospel Oak, which is a significant reduction in information. I don't disapprove, but it's just one of those unintended consequences.

 

[boiledbeans2]

The Liberty Line - the line that has 3 sections.

• The first section goes from Romford to Emerson Park to Upminster.
• The second section starts at Liverpool Street, then splits into 2 at the 2nd station. One branch terminates at Moorgate, while the other branch terminates at ???
• The third section goes from Monument to Bank to ???

 

[Crithylum]

The Liberty Line - the line that has 3 sections.

• The first section goes from Romford to Emerson Park to Upminster.
• The second section starts at Liverpool Street, then splits into 2 at the 2nd station. One branch terminates at Moorgate, while the other branch terminates at ???
• The third section goes from Monument to Bank to ???

View attachment 165367

The "first section" is the Liberty Line
The "second section" is a connector blob
The "third section" is a connector blob

 

[boiledbeans2]

The "first section" is the Liberty Line
The "second section" is a connector blob
The "third section" is a connector blob

You and I (and all here on the forum) may know that. But to a tourist who has a pocket tube map, it won't be so obvious.

If they wanted to get from Angel to Liverpool Street, it might seem that they need to get the Northern Line to the 'unnamed station with the wheelchair symbol', then change to the Liberty Line to get to Liverpool Street.

And assuming they don't get confused by the Liberty Line and connector blobs, it's not obvious from the map what the name of the Central Line Liverpool Street station is. Is it Liverpool Street? Moorgate?

 

[vuzzeho]

it won't be so obvious

I think it will. They have very clearly different line weights and one is black and the other is grey. Also, if they are on a train going to Liverpool Street, they will hear 'the next stop is Liverpool Street'. Also, I doubt they'd expect the Liberty line to go from Romford to Upminster and then have random disconnected sections in central London. I think this take is a bit of a reach.

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

The Liberty Line - the line that has 3 sections.

• The first section goes from Romford to Emerson Park to Upminster.
• The second section starts at Liverpool Street, then splits into 2 at the 2nd station. One branch terminates at Moorgate, while the other branch terminates at ???
• The third section goes from Monument to Bank to ???

View attachment 165367

Come on they're obviously different colours

 

[Class15]

I think it will. They have very clearly different line weights and one is black and the other is grey. Also, if they are on a train going to Liverpool Street, they will hear 'the next stop is Liverpool Street'. Also, I doubt they'd expect the Liberty line to go from Romford to Upminster and then have random disconnected sections in central London. I think this take is a bit of a reach.

No, it won’t be. The colour they picked for the liberty line is very unfortunate and they do look very similar. This is very silly on TfL’s part, as it’s very confising.

 

[Purple Train]

it's not obvious from the map what the name of the Central Line Liverpool Street station is. Is it Liverpool Street? Moorgate?

Agreed. But it's obvious enough that the Liberty Line is totally separate that I'm sure there won't be much, if any, confusion. If the Liberty Line did call at Liverpool Street, I'd perhaps be more inclined to agree - but, equally, I'm sure they wouldn't have done it in grey if that was the case!

 

[Wolfie]

Windrush Line branding visible at Surrey Quays. The sticker for the unbranded map is peeling off already! I've already started calling it the Windrush line, it's just easier.

The new signs are definitely at Canonbury and, l believe, Highbury and Islington too.... and yes the vinyl covers are peeling (unclear whether that is assisted, lol).

 

[Surreytraveller]

Yesterday I used Southern's Watford Junction to East Croydon service (for the first time), so that includes a bit of Lioness and some Mildmay (which makes me think of a herbal remedy).

Although to be pedantic, the new names only refer to the London Overground service. The physical lines themselves will still be the West London Line and the DC Lines.
It will still be Southern's West London Line service, and that's what Network Rail will still call it
It's just a branding exercise for TfL.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Agreed. But it's obvious enough that the Liberty Line is totally separate that I'm sure there won't be much, if any, confusion. If the Liberty Line did call at Liverpool Street, I'd perhaps be more inclined to agree - but, equally, I'm sure they wouldn't have done it in grey if that was the case!

You're looking at it from the wrong end -someone who knows that there is a line way out east depicted in grey.
To someone unfamiliar with the map, wanting to go from, say, Angel to Liverpool Street, they could mistake that connector for a line and look in the key for a line of that colour. I anything other tan ideal lighting conditions that monochrome line would appear to be what they seek. They would have no reason to notice another line of the same colour on the extreme right hand edge of the diagram.

 

[Purple Train]

You're looking at it from the wrong end -someone who knows that there is a line way out east depicted in grey.
To someone unfamiliar with the map, wanting to go from, say, Angel to Liverpool Street, they could mistake that connector for a line and look in the key for a line of that colour. I anything other tan ideal lighting conditions that monochrome line would appear to be what they seek. They would have no reason to notice another line of the same colour on the extreme right hand edge of the diagram.

That's fair enough, yes. The connector blobs look thicker and the lines slightly green to me, but I accept that I'm not a good judge!

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

You're looking at it from the wrong end -someone who knows that there is a line way out east depicted in grey.
To someone unfamiliar with the map, wanting to go from, say, Angel to Liverpool Street, they could mistake that connector for a line and look in the key for a line of that colour. I anything other tan ideal lighting conditions that monochrome line would appear to be what they seek. They would have no reason to notice another line of the same colour on the extreme right hand edge of the diagram.

Liverpool Street isn't way out east

 

[Class15]

Liverpool Street isn't way out east

Romford and Upminster are!

 

[LLivery]

Didn't have time to get a picture, but one route diagram on the Northbound LO platform at Canada Water is uncovered for all to see. The other is covered.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Liverpool Street isn't way out east

Quite. İf you are looking at the Liverpool Street area you will be unlikely to notice the "other" monochrome line out to the east, nor notice that it is a slightly lighter shade of grey than the connector blobs and lines.

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

Quite. İf you are looking at the Liverpool Street area you will be unlikely to notice the "other" monochrome line out to the east, nor notice that it is a slightly lighter shade of grey than the connector blobs and lines.

But surely people would know their destination, and then find out what the line is called, but not the other way around

 

[Recessio]

But surely people would know their destination, and then find out what the line is called, but not the other way around

I agree. Most people have also planned their journey either with the TfL website or an app, and won't be going in completely blind.

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

I agree. Most people have also planned their journey either with the TfL website or an app, and won't be going in completely blind.

Exactly. Also for the lea valley lines (can't remember what the new name is) it doesn't matter what the line is called as it's just from the main part of the station. Same with Romford to Upminster

 

[Sunil_P]

Exactly. Also for the lea valley lines (can't remember what the new name is) it doesn't matter what the line is called as it's just from the main part of the station. Same with Romford to Upminster

Weaver Line

 

[Basil Jet]

Yesterday I used Southern's Watford Junction to East Croydon service (for the first time), so that includes a bit of Lioness and some Mildmay (which makes me think of a herbal remedy).

AFAIK it doesn't share any track with the Lioness Line, but uses the "Slow Lines" to Watford Junction.