New Northern brands

[py_megapixel]

This is why I think "Northern + another word" is a good name. Something that establishes something new while retaining the simplicity of 'Northern' as a descriptor.

What about "NorthLink?" It's short, snappy and conveys the idea of connections without actually using the word "Connect" - which, as you say, should probably be avoided! I'm sure I saw something on here before about "Worst Crapital Disconnect" - First Capital Connect certainly had a cursed name from that point of view.

And 'NCR' sounds like a K-pop band, although I suppose that plastering "STAN NCR!!!!!" on the the sides of the trains might just boost ticket sales.

NCR is a company which makes cash machines and electronic tills. I'm not sure how familiar they are to the average member of the public though.

My personal preference is not to use the word "Railway." I understand using it when there was a historic railway taking this route (I like the GWR branding for example) but there wasn't ever a unified railway doing what Northern does today.

As for Northern Spirit, it's not a name that I really like at all. It sounds too much like a sub-brand ("Stagecoach Gold", "United Express", "Northern Spirit" - they all have a similar ring to them.) A train called "Northern Spirit" would be in better taste, much better than "Proud to be Northern" which is ironic when you consider Northern's track record (no pun intended)

I think one of the best brands out there is actually TPE. The brand has character, but not to the extent that it is "in-your-face" (looking at you, Virgin West Coast).

Although I can't help thinking that the Desiros would look lovely if... I don't know... the main body was changed to dark blue? Then you could add a pattern of lines in various warmer colours along the lower bodyside

 

[Bletchleyite]

Something like 'Northern Spirit' has that character to it. It's less sigh-inducing.

Northern Spirit, while the TPE "gold N" livery was a lovely classic, was a bit of a silly name and got a lot of mockery, e.g. questions as to whether that was an intoxicating liquor sold on the trolley.

This is why I think "Northern + another word" is a good name. Something that establishes something new while retaining the simplicity of 'Northern' as a descriptor.

What's wrong with going classic? "Northern Railway"?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What about "NorthLink?" It's short, snappy and conveys the idea of connections without actually using the word "Connect" - which, as you say, should probably be avoided! I'm sure I saw something on here before about "Worst Crapital Disconnect" - First Capital Connect certainly had a cursed name from that point of view.

There's already a ferry company using that name: https://www.northlinkferries.co.uk/. It has a logo quite surprisingly similar to SercoNedNorthern, which as it's a Serco operation may not be a coincidence.

As for a name for the express routes, what's wrong with "Northern Express"? Keep it classic and classy. Or if you like bring back NorthWest Express and a NorthEast Express to go with it, and possibly Yorkshire Express for services not going far enough north for the latter.

 

[backontrack]

"NorthLink?"

NorthLink already exist. Ferries from Scrabster to Stromness and from Aberdeen to Kirkwall and Lerwick. You can get PlusBus tickets from Inverness to Thurso and then onto the ferry to Orkney, so I'm afraid that wouldn't be a goer.

There's already a...

What Bletch said.

Northern Spirit, while the TPE "gold N" livery was a lovely classic, was a bit of a silly name and got a lot of mockery, e.g. questions as to whether that was an intoxicating liquor sold on the trolley.

Yeah, ultimately not the best choice. (And yes, that livery slapped.)

A train called "Northern Spirit" would be in better taste, much better than "Proud to be Northern" which is ironic when you consider Northern's track record (no pun intended)

That's a shout!

I think one of the best brands out there is actually TPE. The brand has character, but not to the extent that it is "in-your-face" (looking at you, Virgin West Coast).

I really agree! Also ScotRail.

Although I can't help thinking that the Desiros would look lovely if... I don't know... the main body was changed to dark blue? Then you could add a pattern of lines in various warmer colours along the lower bodyside

Ooh, sounds superb.

What's wrong with going classic? "Northern Railway"?

Nice idea, but the trouble with going for 'Northern Railway' is that people won't be bothered to say the 'Railway' part, because it's implied. They'll just say Northern again.

I agree that Northern Spirit isn't a good name for the TOC. I think something of that ilk would work, though. Something that's less obviously a corporate attempt to be distinctive (like 'Spirit') that's still distinct and characterful in a positive way.

 

[backontrack]

deleted

 

[py_megapixel]

Northern Spirit, while the TPE "gold N" livery was a lovely classic, was a bit of a silly name and got a lot of mockery, e.g. questions as to whether that was an intoxicating liquor sold on the trolley.
...
What's wrong with going classic? "Northern Railway"?

Nice idea, but the trouble with going for 'Northern Railway' is that people won't be bothered to say the 'Railway' part, because it's implied. They'll just say Northern again.

I agree that Northern Spirit isn't a good name for the TOC. I think something of that ilk would work, though. Something that's less obviously a corporate attempt to be distinctive (like 'Spirit') that's still distinct and characterful in a positive way.

What about something which doesn't even contain the word "North?" In the context of a TOC it would be fairly easy to always present with a slogan such as "Connecting the North" unless that is considered too much like bundling together too much.

There's a few of these in Germany. Abellio and Keolis operate under their own brands, and there are operators which run open-access or contracted services such as Metronom, Cantus, FlixTrain etc.

 

[Energy]

Can we stop adding railway to the end of names? It works at GWR as Great Western has been part of the brand for a long time (Great Western Trains, First Great Western and I think BR may have had it in their branding but don't quote me on it) so the Great Western part was already known, GWR (the old one) was also somewhat known by the public, LNER and LMS aren't really known by the public.

EMR is the worst offender though, it tries the old style branding but it never existed anyway so it doesn't look great. LNWR is fine, it isn't known by the public but atleast it kind off fits, WMR is the same and WMT was already taken.

 

[backontrack]

What about something which doesn't even contain the word "North?" In the context of a TOC it would be fairly easy to always present with a slogan such as "Connecting the North" unless that is considered too much like bundling together too much.

There's a few of these in Germany. Abellio and Keolis operate under their own brands, and there are operators which run open-access or contracted services such as Metronom, Cantus, FlixTrain etc.

That's an intriguing suggestion.

 

[Trackman]

Something short and sweet like A2B (like C2C) and dump the whole Northern thing.
Anything that says Northern trains/rail etc makes me think of going to the dentists.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's an intriguing suggestion.

Avanti?

 

[LOL The Irony]

What's wrong with going classic? "Northern Railway"?

Isn't the OLR's name Northern Railway?

(Nope, it's Northern Trains)

 

[py_megapixel]

Avanti?

Something like "Nova?"
It's a term associated with stars, so it can play on the same association that TPE have of the North Star.
It's similar to "novel" which gives the impression of innovation - good, since most of the current fleet will eventually have to be replaced.
It's short and easy to remember.
It starts the same as "North"

It does sound a bit corporate though. There is also the issue that Nova Rail sounds a bit similar to Vivarail - but of their reliability record continues, Vivarail may well be a thing of the past by the time the franchise name is changed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sounds better in Spanish

(I bet CAF have a laugh over it!)

 

[tbtc]

I do enjoy the disconnect between the "we should have one brand and call everything British Rail and keep things simple and not waste money changing the branding every few years" and the "we need at least one new brand for Northern's services, maybe more, chuck in some bespoke branding for lots of regional sub-brands too, need to ensure that everything has a suitably local name"

Come up with as many bijou names as you want, but the Great British Public will still be calling services "Northern" for many years and you're not tackling the bigger problems that the franchise has (heavily subsidy dependent, unreliable services caused by too many hourly routes cramming through several bottlenecks, unfocussed muddle of routes because the services are intended to tick as many boxes with as many "stakeholders" as possible)

As for a name for the express routes, what's wrong with "Northern Express"?

Why does there need to be a sub-brand though? Do we really need a four tier railway in northern England (e.g. LNER/Avanti in the top tier, XC/TPE in the second tier, "Northern Connect" trying to carve out a niche between the others and the common-or-garden Northern brand)?

There weren't going to be sufficient trains to ensure that all Northern Connect services were run by Northern Connect units, it'll just confuse people more (e.g. should we have a different brand for 158 operated routes to show that they are a cut above 150 operated routes?)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why does there need to be a sub-brand though? Do we really need a four tier railway in northern England (e.g. LNER/Avanti in the top tier, XC/TPE in the second tier, "Northern Connect" trying to carve out a niche between the others and the common-or-garden Northern brand)?

There probably doesn't need to be, but as you're aware I am a great proponent of Takt, and one aspect of Takt is that you have train categorisation with consistent quality and calling points for each train category.

So it's no different to DB having RB, RE, IC and ICE. Northern is RB, Northern Connect RE, TPE/XC IC and Avanti/LNER ICE.

 

[Meerkat]

Is there any real support for TfN as a concept? The northern areas seem to fight like cats in a bag sometimes and I wonder if they only support TfN as the most that was available and just a stepping stone to what they want - City regions/counties (Cynically i think Osborne created it to cause them to bicker with each other so he could shrug and give up - divide and rule....)
if I am right then give up with Northern now and start splitting it up into the areas.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is there any real support for TfN as a concept? The northern areas seem to fight like cats in a bag sometimes and I wonder if they only support TfN as the most that was available and just a stepping stone to what they want - City regions/counties (Cynically i think Osborne created it to cause them to bicker with each other so he could shrug and give up - divide and rule....)
if I am right then give up with Northern now and start splitting it up into the areas.

Given that the War of the Roses is stronger than the north south divide, I suspect indeed nobody "up North" actually wants this, and having RRNW and RRNE split by the Pennines (with RRNW including North Wales, given that economically a lot of it is effectively a suburb of Liverpool/Chester) was probably far better aligned with how people feel and how they travel, give or take TPE which was arbitrarily given to RRNE.

 

[darloscott]

I do enjoy the disconnect between the "we should have one brand and call everything British Rail and keep things simple and not waste money changing the branding every few years" and the "we need at least one new brand for Northern's services, maybe more, chuck in some bespoke branding for lots of regional sub-brands too, need to ensure that everything has a suitably local name"

Come up with as many bijou names as you want, but the Great British Public will still be calling services "Northern" for many years and you're not tackling the bigger problems that the franchise has (heavily subsidy dependent, unreliable services caused by too many hourly routes cramming through several bottlenecks, unfocussed muddle of routes because the services are intended to tick as many boxes with as many "stakeholders" as possible)



Why does there need to be a sub-brand though? Do we really need a four tier railway in northern England (e.g. LNER/Avanti in the top tier, XC/TPE in the second tier, "Northern Connect" trying to carve out a niche between the others and the common-or-garden Northern brand)?

There weren't going to be sufficient trains to ensure that all Northern Connect services were run by Northern Connect units, it'll just confuse people more (e.g. should we have a different brand for 158 operated routes to show that they are a cut above 150 operated routes?)

I'm in agreement with 'tbtc' in that we can re-brand the network as much as we like but it's not going to make any difference until the basics of the service are sorted out. We've had new deliveries in the form of 195's and 331's, and the refurbishment of the older units is still in progress so now is the time to kick on and sort out the punctuality problems. Going back to basics on the network not having lots of hourly long distance services and focussing on smaller, local networks is the way forward. Surely the success of the Aire/Wharfe electric network is no secret... simple high frequency services taking people from A to B and the growth this has seen should be no surprise. Northern is heavily subsidised and really needs revenue to grow hugely to reduce the subsidy required - or if we keep the subsidy at the same level then it can be invested in with more new units and more services where capacity allows.

 

[Meerkat]

I'm in agreement with 'tbtc' in that we can re-brand the network as much as we like but it's not going to make any difference until the basics of the service are sorted out. We've had new deliveries in the form of 195's and 331's, and the refurbishment of the older units is still in progress so now is the time to kick on and sort out the punctuality problems. Going back to basics on the network not having lots of hourly long distance services and focussing on smaller, local networks is the way forward. Surely the success of the Aire/Wharfe electric network is no secret... simple high frequency services taking people from A to B and the growth this has seen should be no surprise. Northern is heavily subsidised and really needs revenue to grow hugely to reduce the subsidy required - or if we keep the subsidy at the same level then it can be invested in with more new units and more services where capacity allows.

I think you underestimate the impact of branding, especially with the less informed (And more positive!)
”Northern trains are rubbish” sets an expectation they will look to fulfill
”Northern trains were rubbish” and they have a more open mind that maybe the new brand (even if actually little different on the ground) is better, and then can come away with “new brand is better”
Draw a line under it and start afresh. Obviously the positivity will be a flash in the pan if you don’t start to improve things......

 

[darloscott]

I think you underestimate the impact of branding, especially with the less informed (And more positive!)
”Northern trains are rubbish” sets an expectation they will look to fulfill
”Northern trains were rubbish” and they have a more open mind that maybe the new brand (even if actually little different on the ground) is better, and then can come away with “new brand is better”
Draw a line under it and start afresh. Obviously the positivity will be a flash in the pan if you don’t start to improve things......

Oh I totally get the impact of it - having run a bus company for a few years - but if you don't get the basics right then what's the point in rebranding? We can rebrand it every few years but it's not going to change the fact that the basic service needs improving underneath.

 

[py_megapixel]

I'm in agreement with 'tbtc' in that we can re-brand the network as much as we like but it's not going to make any difference until the basics of the service are sorted out. We've had new deliveries in the form of 195's and 331's, and the refurbishment of the older units is still in progress so now is the time to kick on and sort out the punctuality problems. Going back to basics on the network not having lots of hourly long distance services and focussing on smaller, local networks is the way forward. Surely the success of the Aire/Wharfe electric network is no secret... simple high frequency services taking people from A to B and the growth this has seen should be no surprise. Northern is heavily subsidised and really needs revenue to grow hugely to reduce the subsidy required - or if we keep the subsidy at the same level then it can be invested in with more new units and more services where capacity allows.

I made this suggestion on another Speculative thread and was shouted down for it, and I probably will be here too, but it remains my opinion that what is needed is a complete overhaul of the franchise.

Go to CAF, Stadler or Siemens and order a few hundred trains. No more ironing boards; no more solo 2-car DMUs; no more out-of-order toilets, broken PIS or deafeningly loud engines (yes I know they're interesting from an enthusiast perspective, but the noise alone drastically worsens the passenger experience on a 150 or 156). My suggestion would be 3 car units in large enough quantities that the vast majority of services can be 6 car and a few can be longer, but that allows routes which need short trains (e.g. Stoke-on-Trent) to be short without the need for a microfleet.

But given that most of the Northern network is not electrified, it may be wise to wait a few years to see if battery or hydrogen technology matures, or at least choose a modular platform like a Flirt or a Civity. In the meantime, the trains need to be properly cleaned on a frequent basis, and consideration should be given to removing the third seats in 323s, 319s and 150s to give a 2-2 seating layout. Also maybe replace the dreadful retrofitted PIS.

Admittedly some older stock would have to stick around for places with very short terminus platforms.

Preferably build the extra tracks through Castlefield, and do Transpennine electrification (although those aren't under the control of the TOC).

I could rant about this for a very long time, but I'm at risk of taking this thread off on a massive tangent. Ultimately I too think that applying a new brand name to the current Northern operation would be the death sentence to the new brand. It has to wait until we see some major improvements.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That would be more like the Greater Anglia approach - a full fleet replacement with a consistent fleet. The idea of having a 3/6 x 24m railway with a single type of bi-mode unit would be a brilliant idea (the 195s and 331s could go elsewhere) but it would be massively costly and so Northern is likely to become a unit dumping ground for some time I expect.

 

[Energy]

I would go for a full fleet replacement of 3 car bimodes and 4 car emus. Make sure they have through gangways so we don't have the situation of 1 unit being packed and another empty. There isn't much point keeping most of the current fleet, the diesels are varying sprinters ranging from ok but getting old to terrible although there are a few good 170s, the emu fleet is hand me down 319s, getting old 323s and 322s, the 333s I'm interested how much life is left in them considering the 332s are being replaced. This is excluding civitys and the few remaining pacers.

 

[darloscott]

It would be lovely to have a brand new fleet but how are we going to make a business case for 300+ new units for an operation that already loses money heavily? What needs to be focussed on is improving the reliability and punctuality of the existing operation, grow the passenger numbers & revenue within the constraints of what we already have and cut the losses that the franchise currently makes. The issue comes with the peak loadings on certain lines and how to make the most of the rolling stock (and infrastructure!) Northern already have.
All of this is one big unknown in the future of course...

 

[py_megapixel]

It would be lovely to have a brand new fleet but how are we going to make a business case for 300+ new units for an operation that already loses money heavily? What needs to be focussed on is improving the reliability and punctuality of the existing operation, grow the passenger numbers & revenue within the constraints of what we already have and cut the losses that the franchise currently makes. The issue comes with the peak loadings on certain lines and how to make the most of the rolling stock (and infrastructure!) Northern already have.
All of this is one big unknown in the future of course...

There is a social benefit to providing clean, modern, accessible people actually want to use. I do think that under the current system, there is too much of a tendency to get hung up on making money (but of course that's very much a debatable opinion), which means that where there is a choice between a high-quality service and a profitable one, the latter tends to be chosen.

 

[Energy]

There is a social benefit to providing clean, modern, accessible people actually want to use. I do think that under the current system, there is too much of a tendency to get hung up on making money (but of course that's very much a debatable opinion), which means that where there is a choice between a high-quality service and a profitable one, the latter tends to be chosen.

CAF units are known to be pretty cheap anyway, passengers aren't going to get a dramatic change when most are stuck with old sprinters, the 156s and 158s are fine for now but I doubt anyone wants to see a 150 or 153 turn up for their commute.

 

[backontrack]

You know what? Screw it.

I really want Leeds, Bradford and Wakefield commuter services to go back to the WYMetro styling.

Colour-coded timetables (e.g. Caldervale Line, Huddersfield Line, Pontefract Line, York and Selby Lines), red METRO-liveried trains...that'd do nicely, thank you!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I think Northern could do with a full rebrand but find a balance between the depressing, boring formal attire of old fashioned GWR and the over the top maybe too fun Virgin brand which while I loved it I know others found it too much

I had a go myself, creating a new brand called “TravelNorthern” with a turquoise colour scheme so nice and modern but not too in your face nothing like hot pink or bright red. I cannot photoshop trains into fake liveries so I attempted to make a mock poster

 

[Peter Kelford]

Is there any real support for TfN as a concept? The northern areas seem to fight like cats in a bag sometimes and I wonder if they only support TfN as the most that was available and just a stepping stone to what they want - City regions/counties (Cynically i think Osborne created it to cause them to bicker with each other so he could shrug and give up - divide and rule....)
if I am right then give up with Northern now and start splitting it up into the areas.

Go to CAF, Stadler or Siemens and order a few hundred trains. No more ironing boards; no more solo 2-car DMUs; no more out-of-order toilets, broken PIS or deafeningly loud engines (yes I know they're interesting from an enthusiast perspective, but the noise alone drastically worsens the passenger experience on a 150 or 156). My suggestion would be 3 car units in large enough quantities that the vast majority of services can be 6 car and a few can be longer, but that allows routes which need short trains (e.g. Stoke-on-Trent) to be short without the need for a microfleet.

But given that most of the Northern network is not electrified, it may be wise to wait a few years to see if battery or hydrogen technology matures, or at least choose a modular platform like a Flirt or a Civity. In the meantime, the trains need to be properly cleaned on a frequent basis, and consideration should be given to removing the third seats in 323s, 319s and 150s to give a 2-2 seating layout. Also maybe replace the dreadful retrofitted PIS.

Admittedly some older stock would have to stick around for places with very short terminus platforms.

Preferably build the extra tracks through Castlefield, and do Transpennine electrification (although those aren't under the control of the TOC).

I could rant about this for a very long time, but I'm at risk of taking this thread off on a massive tangent. Ultimately I too think that applying a new brand name to the current Northern operation would be the death sentence to the new brand. It has to wait until we see some major improvements.

You know what? Screw it.

I really want Leeds, Bradford and Wakefield commuter services to go back to the WYMetro styling.

Colour-coded timetables (e.g. Caldervale Line, Huddersfield Line, Pontefract Line, York and Selby Lines), red METRO-liveried trains...that'd do nicely, thank you!

Indeed I think that having one 'behind the scenes' operator for everything (TPE + Northern) but perhaps with multiple brands for the different regions balances economies of scale with the desire for distinct brands that aren't 'catch-alls'. As for the new trains, economies of scale dictate that the best choice would be to retire everything and run a fleet based around class 195s and their electric sibling.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed I think that having one 'behind the scenes' operator for everything (TPE + Northern) but perhaps with multiple brands for the different regions balances economies of scale with the desire for distinct brands that aren't 'catch-alls'. As for the new trains, economies of scale dictate that the best choice would be to retire everything and run a fleet based around class 195s and their electric sibling.

It's amazing the difference 195s/331s make to the look of the whole thing compared with rotting 150s and Pacers. Even if nothing else changes, they both look much better and because of the acceleration catch up lost time really well, as well as, despite the low density seating, being as effective a people-eater as Thameslink Class 700s.

As for Metro branding, yes, this is a good idea - it worked on Merseyside calling Northern stuff a "Merseyrail service" with yellow DMUs, and it works in other countries too.