New Northern brands

[py_megapixel]

The Northern brand is pretty toxic at the moment. given that Arriva Rail North had a history of running a service which was completely inadequate. It's pretty clear that this brand will have to go at the end of the franchise. What do members think a new Northern brand should look like?

Personally I think that the Northern Connect being branded separately idea was a good one, but it needs its own identity (not just a few stickers on some 195s.) I made a mockup of what that could look like:

I don't claim to be a graphic design expert, so if anyone fancies having a better go, then go ahead.

Also, I was out of ideas for what the, local services on Northern could be branded as.

Concept logos, livery diagrams, ideas for how else to split up the branding and whatever else welcome!

 

[gazthomas]

Let's go for LMS, integrating other franchises when they inevitably collapse

 

[Iskra]

Let's go for LMS, integrating other franchises when they inevitably collapse

That might be a bit misleading, unless you are expecting Northern to start running some London trains?

The Lancashire & Yorkshire railway would be more appropriate in terms of historic names, although it does now leave some areas out.

However, personally I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with the current name, it just needs the service sorting out, which does seem to be happening to an extent already...

 

[gazthomas]

That might be a bit misleading, unless you are expecting Northern to start running some London trains?

The Lancashire & Yorkshire railway would be more appropriate in terms of historic names, although it does now leave some areas out.

However, personally I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with the current name, it just needs the service sorting out, which does seem to be happening to an extent already...

That's a fair point. Northern, sounds to me at least a bit, Northern. As a Welshman living in the South East it sounds a bit condescending given it's only "Northern England"

 

[Bletchleyite]

Someone on here did a purple-based brand which looked really good. I half recall they are only allowed to keep the present one for a specified period of time as Arriva own it, but I forget how long.

 

[Doomotron]

I think that the word 'Northern' should be dropped altogether. A lot of people can't tell the difference between Serco/Abellio and Arriva's franchises, so having another called Northern won't make the public image get any better.

What about dRail?

 

[Gareth]

I think Northern is fine.

No one outside of this forum who isn't in the industry gives a damn about franchises and I don't think it matters much.

 

[Peter Kelford]

How about Northern Powerhouse Connect? It's correct for not including the Midlands, but has scope for TPE to be integrated into it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How about Northern Powerhouse Connect? It's correct for not including the Midlands, but has scope for TPE to be integrated into it.

I'm not sure (Manchester aside) "Northern Powerhouse" isn't a jaded term, because it hasn't actually produced e.g. the jobs promised?

 

[Meerkat]

Northern just sounds a bit bland and negative, almost like a default description rather than a brand.
Even if it isn’t broken up as a I wish I think the brand should be broken up into the City Regions/Counties that people are more identified with and can be a more positive.
Lancashire
Merseyrail
Greater Manchester
The various Yorkshires
North East

 

[Purple Orange]

It is not the brand that gets people angry. It is

• the low frequency,
• unreliability,
• the old trains,
• the short trains,
• the old and short trains,
• the poor customer service provided by some guards (I have experienced some good service from other train guards),
• the inability to deal with a ticketing issue for a ticket bought at a station served by another TOC (although that is not just a Northern issue).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Low frequency isn't necessarily an issue. I'd rather have a watch-settably punctual hourly service with enough space for everyone to have a seat than a half hourly service that is cancelled half the time and heavily overcrowded. I think once you go below hourly it can be a problem, but not many Northern routes have a frequency significantly below hourly other than the very rural ones.

 

[Purple Orange]

I would argue that low frequency is certainly an issue in the bigger conurbations. Manchester has a two tier commuter rail service, if you include trams (which for all intents and purposes serves the exact same purpose as heavy commuter rail). Frequency on Merseyrail and the Tyne & Wear metro are vastly superior to those provided by Northern. I appreciate the reasons as to why commuter services that share tracks with long distance services may have lower frequency, but it appears to be a poor excuse to the public.

 

[Energy]

How about Northern Powerhouse Connect? It's correct for not including the Midlands, but has scope for TPE to be integrated into it.

Too wordy and long, it has 7 syllables whereas even Transpennine Express is 5.

 

[Meerkat]

Go back to something like Northern Spirit. Anything but dull, depressing ‘Northern’

 

[Iskra]

Transport For The North?

 

[Meerkat]

Transport For The North?

They are naff copies. TfW is horribly clunky even as an abbreviation!
Go with local brands that can match the area branding.

 

[xotGD]

Options using North rather than Northern:

North of England Railway

NER

Up North Railway

UNR

North Country Railway

NCR

And slightly different:

Two Roses Railway

 

[Energy]

I would keep it simple, Northern works well because it is short and describes the area it operates in. Ones like "North of England Railway" and "North County Railway" describe which area it operates in but are a little wordy and when abbreviated the first one (NER) could get confused with LNER considering some speakers for announcements aren't great. I would suggest "Network North" and introduce new trains with enough carriages (why 2 car 195s? they don't even have end gangways).

 

[Meerkat]

How about Whippet? [walks off whistling]

 

[Peter Kelford]

Too wordy and long, it has 7 syllables whereas even Transpennine Express is 5.

You'd just abbreviate it to NPC, just like TPE or GTR, I suppose.

 

[Peter Kelford]

North Country Railway

NCR

Northern Counties Railway? Actually, that makes it sound like a George Hudson project from the (18)40s.

 

[Energy]

You'd just abbreviate it to NPC, just like TPE or GTR, I suppose.

It would also be confusing for tourists, transpennine express is a fairly simple name, it is across the pennines and is an express service. Powerhouse doesn't link to anything except the project name.

 

[markwcel]

And everybody seems to be missing Cumbria out

 

[Bletchleyite]

And everybody seems to be missing Cumbria out

I think sub-brands would be sensible for bits like that - "Lakes and Furness"?

(I still want to see a "Seen- und Furneß-Takt" - but that's for another thread )

 

[py_megapixel]

And everybody seems to be missing Cumbria out

I think sub-brands would be sensible for bits like that - "Lakes and Furness"?

(I still want to see a "Seen- und Furneß-Takt" - but that's for another thread )

Honestly, I think Cumbria would be better served by a service on the long-distance brand which became a stopping service at the end of the route. (You could describe it as semi-fast - something like Man Airport - Man Piccadilly - Wigan North Western - Preston - Lancaster - All stations to Carlisle via Barrow).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Honestly, I think Cumbria would be better served by a service on the long-distance brand which became a stopping service at the end of the route. (You could describe it as semi-fast - something like Man Airport - Man Piccadilly - Wigan North Western - Preston - Lancaster - All stations to Carlisle via Barrow).

My thinking is of the core service being hourly Manchester Airport-Lancaster, splitting there for Barrow/Carlisle and Windermere, using CAF units. Or as an alternative, alternating the two destinations with the "other hour" being a clockface connection from Lancaster and running in the same timed path beyond. I'd probably bring Lancaster-Leeds (with a nicer name than "Bentham Line") and the Morecambe shuttle (with a "Metro" branding, along the lines of "City and Coast Metro") into this group as well.

This is not that different from now, but would make things more consistent and memorable.

 

[Meerkat]

Lancashire and Cumbrian Railway.
All the Northern services that go beyond Preston, plus the local lines from Preston, Cumbrian Coast, probably/possibly Bentham and Settle-Carlisle.
Run from Preston so the locals needs don’t get drowned out by the big cities to the South.
Merseyrail not going beyond Southport/Burscough/Wigan
TfGM not going beyond Preston.
Manchester-Southport and Manchester-Blackburn/Colne/Burnley TBC

 

[billio]

I suggest Pennine Railways or something similar. Practically all routes except perhaps in Cumbria will go near the Pennines even if they don't cross it.

 

[backontrack]

Go back to something like Northern Spirit. Anything but dull, depressing ‘Northern’

Agreed.

• Steer clear of 'Northern Powerhouse' – that name is basically a rotting dustbin by now
• 'Northern' is MUCH better than anything using 'The North'. 'The North', as an entity, doesn't exist; the term is basically a way of ignorantly lumping everything north of Birmingham in together, commonly done by people in the Home Counties. 'The North' is a collection of separate regions, counties and urban areas with their own very distinct personalities. However, everywhere that comprises 'The North' is indisputably (and, dare I say, proudly) 'Northern'.
• Something like 'Northern Spirit' has that character to it. It's less sigh-inducing.

Whatever the name is has got to be:
• not corny or cringeworthy. Basically, nothing that is excessively distinctive. Northern Star Trains sounds like it comes from a child's train set, Northern Lightning sounds like a racehorse, and Northern Starbeam sounds like a porn star. I think you get the gist here.
• original. Northern Rock would be a good name, but that was a defunct bank, which doesn't seem like a particularly good omen for a train operating firm. And the railway just so happens to be one of the only other economic sectors, aside from banking, where being bought out by Virgin is a genuine possibility. After what they did with the East Coast franchise, nobody wants that.
• not something that can be punned on social media. Northern Connect seems decent enough, but Northern Disconnect might trend on Twitter if you cock things up. (Incidentally, 'Northern Rock' would not be a good choice in this regard.) Make disgruntled customers' jobs hard for them. You don't want sarcastic puns. Returning to Northern Spirit might work – 'Northern Dispirited' doesn't quite roll off the tongue so well. Admittedly it sounds a bit like a craft beer, but a) spirits aren't beers and b) honestly, having a name that sounds like an alcoholic drink might INDUCE people to travel.
• a name that uses, at most, one geographical descriptor – the 'Northern' part. Southeastern, Southwestern, London Northwestern – they're all starting to blur into each other. ScotRail, TransPennine Express, Grand Central and Chiltern Railways are much better names IMO. Do something that sticks out.
• not an homage to a past company. Keep LNER to the East Coast, and LMS for the next West Coast franchise to pop up.
• a name that doesn't contain 'Trains'. Personal preference – sounds a little bit babyish and dumbed-down to me.

With all that established: I still have absolutely no idea what it should be called.

I think that the word 'Northern' should be dropped altogether. A lot of people can't tell the difference between Serco/Abellio and Arriva's franchises, so having another called Northern won't make the public image get any better.

This is why I think "Northern + another word" is a good name. Something that establishes something new while retaining the simplicity of 'Northern' as a descriptor.

I suggest Pennine Railways or something similar. Practically all routes except perhaps in Cumbria will go near the Pennines even if they don't cross it.

I do like that idea, but I think 'practically all routes' is quite a severe overestimation. It also probably won't stand apart enough from TransPennine Express.

Northern Counties Railway? Actually, that makes it sound like a George Hudson project from the (18)40s.

That sounds like the name given to a short-lived railway that was intended to connect Hebden Bridge with Hull via Warley Town, Liversedge, Allerton Bywater and Ferrybridge, but which only ever obtained a construction permit from the outskirts of Hull as far as Goole, and only ever ran services as far as North Cave before closing in early 1914.

And 'NCR' sounds like a K-pop band, although I suppose that plastering "STAN NCR!!!!!" on the the sides of the trains might just boost ticket sales.

I would suggest "Network North"

Nice idea. Maybe a little too corporate?

Lancaster-Leeds (with a nicer name than "Bentham Line")

Ooh ooh ooh – this is a name I do know! The Craven Line. In all seriousness, I think that that would be a rather nice name for it.