New Moorgate stock

[43074]

Can these stay til post 2020? Thought there'd be DDA Issues?

DDA shouldn't be too much of an issue on these units: they don't have toilets so there's no issue there, and Passenger Information Systems and wheelchair spaces can be fitted in a relatively simple modification (similar to the 315 project that is ongoing at the moment) as far as I know.

More relevant might by the mechanical state of the units, which will be just shy of 45 years old by 2020.

 

[swt_passenger]

Can these stay til post 2020? Thought there'd be DDA Issues?

[Coastway units only]

Possibly no major DDA items still to do. They've already got a proper PIS, and wheelchair spaces, and with no toilets the only DDA issues could be things such as door control positions and 'opening & closing' sounds etc.

The Southern units are already much further ahead of the GN 313s and the 315s in respect of compliance.

 

[Aictos]

How's a 378 a hybrid its just basically a standard Electrostar unit.

If the line can take standard units, then presumably it its likely to be some form of Desiro City, Aventra, or equiv's from Hitachi etc.

Umm because the S7 and 378s share similar interiors, remember a 378 is a Electrostar but with a S7 type interior :roll:

As to S-Stock? Just no. The service requires stock that can use both 3rd rail (no central 4th rail) 600-750V DC and overhead 25kV AC. It also needs to be faster than S-Stock! However, if the Moorgate services were to be cut back to Hertford and and Welwyn, the trains would be going no further distance than Amersham and Chesham,

Umm no that would be a awful idea as Watton at Stone is busy enough in the peaks with the school traffic and commuters so to cut via Hertfords to no further then Hertford is a idiotic idea as they aren't going to run shuttles between Hertford and Stevenage nor get Outers to stop at Watton at Stone.

In any case, via Hertfords would go no further then Stevenage with its own bay platform there.

 

[jon0844]

Will the new Moorgate trains have a toilet or two perhaps? Given some services go as far as Letchworth, it must be worth considering.

 

[A-driver]

Will the new Moorgate trains have a toilet or two perhaps? Given some services go as far as Letchworth, it must be worth considering.

They won't be going further than Stevenage by the time new trains come in. Toilets would reduce capacity and with Stevenage-Moorgate being the longest journey (60mins) I don't think toilets are needed. Especially as no one will ever travel stevenage to Moorgate direct, the longest practicle trip is watt on-moorgates which is about 55mins.

 

[O L Leigh]

For the same sorts of reasons that the Sub Surface stock can be aircon but the Tube can't- where does the heat go? Particularly acute a problem as the branch is only open (excluding stairs etc) at one end, making airflow an issue. Yes, the tunnel isn't as tight to the trains as in deep tube lines, but heat extraction wuld still be a major challenge.

I disagree. The passage of trains, even into a branch, is sufficient to provide airflow enough to ventilate the system. Most of the ventilation in the deep tube comes from the stairwells, escalators and lift shafts at each station rather than through the tunnel portals at each end. And how much additional heat does A/C contribute over and above the heat put out by the traction equipment and all those hot human bodies, etc, etc anyway?

And who says that the deep tube cannot support A/C stock? You didn't sound very sure when I asked you yesterday but now you seem more certain. Have you something you can link to more substantial than supposition or hearsay? The Siemens concept for the deep tube has A/C after all. I was of the opinion that the major barrier to providing A/C for the deep tube was packaging kit powerful enough to be effective inside the cramped deep tube profile.

Happy to be corrected.

O L Leigh

 

[Bald Rick]

Disappointing (but not a surprise) that platform lengthening down there has been ruled out.

It's not been ruled out ... but then it hasn't been considered at all. The new trains provide a large capacity boost, and it goes up to 14tph in the peak in 2017 I think. Taken together it is something like a 30% + increase in passenger capacity.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

For the same sorts of reasons that the Sub Surface stock can be aircon but the Tube can't- where does the heat go? Particularly acute a problem as the branch is only open (excluding stairs etc) at one end, making airflow an issue. Yes, the tunnel isn't as tight to the trains as in deep tube lines, but heat extraction wuld still be a major challenge.

But aren't the sub surface lines in lots of tunnels? And Crossrail with its aircon stock? And various other aircon metros around the world? I'm sure forum members will be able to suggest locations in this country where busy air conditioned trains run through long tunnels, single bore or otherwise.

I think the difficulty of putting aircon in the deep level tube, until recently, has been about getting the kit on the tube gauge trains without reducing passenger capacity.

 

[Manchester77]

I think another issue with air con on tube gauge stock is that hot air might be pumped out into the tunnels making stations too hot however, if Platform Edge doors are required for driverless running (which seems to be a part of the NTfL project) that would mean that less heat would enter stations. Add onto that the ability to refurbish and improve existing cooling towers I think this is what has increased the likelihood of air con on the deep tube.

 

[bangor-toad]

And who says that the deep tube cannot support A/C stock?
[Snip]

Happy to be corrected.

O L Leigh

Hi there,
The issue is one of heat retention in the tunnels and the ground surrounding the tunnels. A request for ideas from TfL came across my desk some years ago.
Anyway, here's a link that's from the Institute of Engineers and Technology on the subject:
Clicky
It doesn't say it's impossible - just rather tricky and subject to any number of engineering and systems constraints...

As an example of the overall system considerations: In my work portfolio I've got a great compact, rugged system to cool air. It can be made the size of a briefcase. You'd imagine it'd almost certainly help in deep tube trains. But it's effectively useless as it generates so much waste heat... Where would that go?

Cheers,
Mr Toad

 

[grid56126]

"S" and 378 will have significant gauging issues on the Northern City line. It will be interesting to see how this is overcome, be it tunnel alterations or shorter coach lengths.

AC overheads is a non starter. The over run wires in the tunnels at Drayton Park are effectively bolted on the tunnel roof and the pan is almost touching it when fully down.

 

[cjmillsnun]

"S" and 378 will have significant gauging issues on the Northern City line. It will be interesting to see how this is overcome, be it tunnel alterations or shorter coach lengths.

AC overheads is a non starter. The over run wires in the tunnels at Drayton Park are effectively bolted on the tunnel roof and the pan is almost touching it when fully down.

Gauging issues???

This has been debunked many times before. 20m coaches should fit.

 

[DownSouth]

Presumably this will need a new tender, at which point we may even get to find out the actual size restrictions on stock down that line.

Not if Network Rail know their infrastructure as well as Réseau Ferré de France.

 

[jon0844]

Our problem won't be fitting the trains down there, but rather getting them built on time and not breaking down causing chaos if we ask Bombardier to build them.

The 313s seem pretty reliable even at their age, and most delays I get alerts about are signalling related.

 

[Class377/5]

Air con is do-able on Tube size stock.

The basic idea is reduce the weight and power requirements along with use of ATO for better energy efficient driving of the new Tube stock which can be used to counter balance the effects of having air con on the units.

However LUL tender for NTfL mentions air cooling which is much easier to achieve.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

From a search it looks like the tunnels are 16ft in diameter. Where does the tunnel surface? If it's Farringdon then any new stock would have to have similar acceleration to a Desiro City so as to not bugger up the Thameslink timetable so if they would fit, maybe some Desiro City's would be best (presumably any new stock will have to have an exit door at each end for emergency evacuations).

 

[jopsuk]

Well off there SpacePhoenix. It gets to the surface at Drayton Park, and joins the mainline at Finsbury Park. It's a completely different line to the other, now shut, Moorgate branch- that was severed when the platforms at Farringdon were extended

 

[grid56126]

Gauging issues???

This has been debunked many times before. 20m coaches should fit.

Debunked, many times? Apologies for missing these, perhaps you could cite the sources that you have seen so I can catch up, thanks.

My own thoughts were that work would need to be done, the difference between "should fit" as you say and actually fitting only needs to be a millimetre or three and an NRAP.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Class 313 width 2.82m, length of DMS 20.33m

Class 378 width 2.8m, coach length 20.4m

I don't see any gauging issues there.

Also as regards height, as OL Leigh has pointed out many times, the VCB sticks up on a class 313 to around the standard height of other coaches.

 

[edwin_m]

The new trains would have regenerative braking, which 313s don't. So the amount of heat produced by the brakes should be reduced by more than the amount an aircon system would need to dissipate. I think I read somewhere that this is why regen is now considered possible even in Tube tunnels, subject to finding space on the trains for the equipment.

As far as I know the 313 bodyshell has the same size and shape as the 314, 315, 507 and 508 and hasn't been built specially small for the Moorgate line. I think the common belief about tight gauging arises from confusion with the former Thameslink Moorgate route, and/or from the fact that there isn't enough clearance to provide 25kV so the 313s were non-standard (at the time) in being the only dual voltage units.

 

[Bald Rick]

One assumes that the regular comments about trains not fitting in the Moorgate tunnels is that Class 313s are the only EMU permitted down there in the Sectional Appendix.

However, that is because they are the only unit ever required to go down there, and thus the gauging exercise and subsequent paperwork has not been completed for anything else.

So the reason that nothing else is cleared is not that it doesn't fit, but that no one knows if it does fit. And as we don't know, we have to assume it doesn't, and is therefore irrelevant.

You might call it Agnostic gauging.

 

[grid56126]

One assumes that the regular comments about trains not fitting in the Moorgate tunnels is that Class 313s are the only EMU permitted down there in the Sectional Appendix.

However, that is because they are the only unit ever required to go down there, and thus the gauging exercise and subsequent paperwork has not been completed for anything else.

So the reason that nothing else is cleared is not that it doesn't fit, but that no one knows if it does fit. And as we don't know, we have to assume it doesn't, and is therefore irrelevant.

You might call it Agnostic gauging.

Which has been my point all along. Mk1 / MK2 coaching stock is gauge cleared as are class 73 locos. Nothing else is. They may all fit snugly, but when you consider things like Step boards on class 377s have to be adjusted to go onto the TL route (not for the core funnily enough) it is never as simple as saying they are in gauge because they are no different to 314 / 5 / 507/ 8.

Other factors are publicly accessible cab end doors (not a show stopper by any means) for evacuation and special steps provided in the cab for this purpose. Trip cock equipment is also required.

None of this is rocket science or likely to be a show stopper and I am sure the franchise bids have all of this under control anyway. I am just highlighting that the NCL has it's quirks. The one good thing that has been solved with modern units now is AC/DC DC/AC changeovers, something the 313s were much better at....

 

[jopsuk]

If the Northern City Line is resignalled to ERTMS/ETCS, will the tripcosk system go?

 

[Bald Rick]

If the Northern City Line is resignalled to ERTMS/ETCS, will the tripcosk system go?

When, not if, and yes.

One of the reasons for buying new trains is to avoid ETCS retro fitment on a fleet with limited life.

Also, in my opinion, this would be perfect for ATO from Finsbury Park to Moorgate, will help squeeze a few more paths in.

 

[grid56126]

Slightly off centre of topic, but close by, are 365s allowed around the Canonbury's unrestricted yet? There used to be loads of restrictions, no step boards and air bags deflated (or something weird to do with them)?

 

[Peter Sarf]

One assumes that the regular comments about trains not fitting in the Moorgate tunnels is that Class 313s are the only EMU permitted down there in the Sectional Appendix.

However, that is because they are the only unit ever required to go down there, and thus the gauging exercise and subsequent paperwork has not been completed for anything else.

So the reason that nothing else is cleared is not that it doesn't fit, but that no one knows if it does fit. And as we don't know, we have to assume it doesn't, and is therefore irrelevant.

You might call it Agnostic gauging.

Must admit I was always puzzled as to why the 313s could fit in the tunnel section between Finsbury Park and Moorgate. That is because I remember when this was a branch of the Northern Line (LUL underground line) called the City branch iirc. So I expected that it was originally built to normal deep level tube dimensions - obviously not.

 

[A-driver]

Slightly off centre of topic, but close by, are 365s allowed around the Canonbury's unrestricted yet? There used to be loads of restrictions, no step boards and air bags deflated (or something weird to do with them)?

Yes they are, completely unrestricted for ECS shunts. And they have been turning 365s round at cononbury most Sundays for the past few months whilst the belle isle works have been going on restricting access into the x.

 

[heart-of-wessex]

Hi there,
The issue is one of heat retention in the tunnels and the ground surrounding the tunnels. A request for ideas from TfL came across my desk some years ago.
Anyway, here's a link that's from the Institute of Engineers and Technology on the subject:
Clicky
It doesn't say it's impossible - just rather tricky and subject to any number of engineering and systems constraints...

As an example of the overall system considerations: In my work portfolio I've got a great compact, rugged system to cool air. It can be made the size of a briefcase. You'd imagine it'd almost certainly help in deep tube trains. But it's effectively useless as it generates so much waste heat... Where would that go?

Cheers,
Mr Toad

Isn't the 2009 stock on the Victoria Line fitted with A/C? Or does it work differently?

 

[DXMachina]

Must admit I was always puzzled as to why the 313s could fit in the tunnel section between Finsbury Park and Moorgate. That is because I remember when this was a branch of the Northern Line (LUL underground line) called the City branch iirc. So I expected that it was originally built to normal deep level tube dimensions - obviously not.

It was built by the GNR to full main line gauge of the day and carried underground trains of similar proportion and design to those of the then Metropolitan Railway.. only later was it used to extend the Northern Line and were tube size stock sent down the large tunnels

 

[samuelmorris]

Isn't the 2009 stock on the Victoria Line fitted with A/C? Or does it work differently?

No, of the new Movia stock, only the S7/S8 have air conditoning, the 2009TS has normal ventilators like previous tube stocks. The first tube stocks to (potentially) have it will be the NtFL units.

 

[Chris125]

It was built by the GNR to full main line gauge of the day and carried underground trains of similar proportion and design to those of the then Metropolitan Railway.. only later was it used to extend the Northern Line and were tube size stock sent down the large tunnels

Alas it was actually built by the Great Northern & City, who failed to reach an agreement with the GNR to run through services - hence the line terminated below Finsbury Park station.

Subsequently sold to the Met, this is why it operated as a self contained tube line - the ECML connection wasn't completed until 1976, the remaining tunnels abandoned and Finsbury Park platforms subsumed into the Victoria Line project.

Chris