New Moorgate stock

[jopsuk]

So, the Govia presentation to investors has this to say about Moorgate stock (there's already discussions on what to do with the 313s)

New trains for Moorgate services
–150 new metro carriages for Moorgate service (25 six-car units)
–Capital cost c.£225m
–Delivered in 2018

Presumably this will need a new tender, at which point we may even get to find out the actual size restrictions on stock down that line. There's been claims (though they always seem to be a bit shaky) that a 378 has gone down there- which would if true indicate that most modern EMUs with pantographs are in fact suitable.

Six car fixed-formations seems quite sane- it's a busy route.

I reckon we'll see a new design used- possible Siemens may be able to offer Desiro City, other manufacturers?

 

[petersi]

Interested to see if the trains have air-conditioning

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[A-driver]

There are no real size limits down there, that is a myth. Most trains will fit down there. Wider and longer coaches like 365s, mk3 or 4 coaches etc won't fit but 313s are not much smaller than electrostar bodies. There is a surprising amount of room in those tunnels around the train when you hp get out in the tunnel and actually walk around the train.

 

[jopsuk]

I do love it when we have someone who actually knows what they're talking about! Good to know. So we can realistically expect to see a "standard UK metro" offering from any company bidding?

Aircon would be interesting. It would be fine on the surface, but surely would have to be switched off in the tunnel section?

 

[A-driver]

I do love it when we have someone who actually knows what they're talking about! Good to know. So we can realistically expect to see a "standard UK metro" offering from any company bidding?

Aircon would be interesting. It would be fine on the surface, but surely would have to be switched off in the tunnel section?

I don't know exact gauges down there but I do know that 319s were considered for that line so obviously able to fit and that it's an ongoing myth that only 313s will fit down there.

 

[westcoaster]

Was thinking about this earlier, could there be some kind of train/tube hybrid mix I.e a train similar to an s stock but to main line standards.

 

[Aictos]

Was thinking about this earlier, could there be some kind of train/tube hybrid mix I.e a train similar to an s stock but to main line standards.

Thought they were already was in service with London Overground as the Class 378s?

Still I'm looking forward to seeing what is being offered as the replacement to the Class 313s.

 

[Chris125]

Was thinking about this earlier, could there be some kind of train/tube hybrid mix I.e a train similar to an s stock but to main line standards.

I can't see why, if a design based on the Aventra platform is suitable for Crossrail then why go to all the cost of developing something entirely new for a line which if anything is a much more conventional commuter operation?

Chris

 

[47802]

Thought they were already was in service with London Overground as the Class 378s?

Still I'm looking forward to seeing what is being offered as the replacement to the Class 313s.

How's a 378 a hybrid its just basically a standard Electrostar unit.

If the line can take standard units, then presumably it its likely to be some form of Desiro City, Aventra, or equiv's from Hitachi etc.

 

[jw]

replacing the Moorgate fleet with 150 new state-of-the-art carriages during 2018, providing more capacity, air-conditioning and improved reliability for passengers;

Seems like they have plans to procure aircon stock

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Was thinking about this earlier, could there be some kind of train/tube hybrid mix I.e a train similar to an s stock but to main line standards.

I'd like to see a UK loading guage sized version of the Z50000 class being built for the Paris area at the moment; those are - for once - a modern design that is exactly right.

 

[jon0844]

I hope they consult with TfL as I still believe that before this franchise is over, the Moorgate service will be gobbled up by London Overground.

Only my personal opinion/prediction of course.

 

[O L Leigh]

Aircon would be interesting. It would be fine on the surface, but surely would have to be switched off in the tunnel section?

Why?

O L Leigh

 

[SpacePhoenix]

If it doesn't get taken over by Overground (using 378s), could LU access it and use S Stock?

 

[jopsuk]

Why?

O L Leigh

For the same sorts of reasons that the Sub Surface stock can be aircon but the Tube can't- where does the heat go? Particularly acute a problem as the branch is only open (excluding stairs etc) at one end, making airflow an issue. Yes, the tunnel isn't as tight to the trains as in deep tube lines, but heat extraction wuld still be a major challenge.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If it doesn't get taken over by Overground (using 378s), could LU access it and use S Stock?

Within the lifetime of the franchise it is increasingly unlikely that Overground will take over the service.

As to S-Stock? Just no. The service requires stock that can use both 3rd rail (no central 4th rail) 600-750V DC and overhead 25kV AC. It also needs to be faster than S-Stock! However, if the Moorgate services were to be cut back to Hertford and and Welwyn, the trains would be going no further distance than Amersham and Chesham,

 

[A-driver]

I hope they consult with TfL as I still believe that before this franchise is over, the Moorgate service will be gobbled up by London Overground.

Only my personal opinion/prediction of course.

I still don't understand where all this comes from. TFL seem to have little interest in the Moorgate route and the dft are unlikely to let it go either.

The service patterns required on the Moorgate route don't meet TfLs 'all station all day' operating principle. Extra peak trains need to run into kings x sharing stock as Moorgate can't and never will be able to meet capacity requirements making a second peak terminal essential. Also it means putting a seperate operator in the middle of a busy franchise on already busy lines.

Plus Welwyn, Hertford and Stevenage are too far from London. If they were not allowed Hertford east and dartford then they won't be allowed this route. I can see an extension from cannonbury to Gordon hill happening under TFL when the new bay opens at Gordon hill but think it very unlikely TFL will take moorgates. Infact the only talk of TFL taking the route comes from this forum!

 

[Blindtraveler]

I hope they consult with TfL as I still believe that before this franchise is over, the Moorgate service will be gobbled up by London Overground.

Only my personal opinion/prediction of course.

I'm with you on this one. I also suspect that, in co-operation with TFL, an option of some kind to extent the electrostar build for the bits of GA its taking over will be excersized and the trains then handed over to Govia to use on this line.↲

 

[34D]

Disappointing (but not a surprise) that platform lengthening down there has been ruled out.

 

[A-driver]

Disappointing (but not a surprise) that platform lengthening down there has been ruled out.

Well mainly because short of closing the entire line for a year it's im****ible. The line is in a deep tunnel so you can't just add a bit more platform on. It would be a major rebuild of the tunnels requiring a huge line closure and a stupidly high amount of money. Given the age if the tunnel I would imagine it may even work out easier and cheaper to bore entirely new tunnels rather than attempt to re-build the existing ones.

 

[A-driver]

Don't know why "impossible" came out as "im****ible"...

 

[jopsuk]

The service patterns required on the Moorgate route don't meet TfLs 'all station all day' operating principle. Extra peak trains need to run into kings x sharing stock as Moorgate can't and never will be able to meet capacity requirements making a second peak terminal essential.

Surely this is a function of signalling? We know that with right signalling and working practices, it is possible to turn around 30 trains per hour in a two platform terminus (eg Brixton)

 

[A-driver]

Surely this is a function of signalling? We know that with right signalling and working practices, it is possible to turn around 30 trains per hour in a two platform terminus (eg Brixton)

But the Moorgate line is a small branch line carrying commuters from Hertfordshire and north London into the city compared to a major tube line linking north and south London. I don't think the money would be stumped up for a small branch line like that. It's busy but not that busy to justify the money, especially when so much is being spent on thameslink and cross rail.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Looking at the location on Google Earth, looks like Moorgate isn't too many miles from the DLR, how feasible would it be (my guess is that it wouldn't be worth it financially) to extend the DLR to Moorgate and maybe further north?

 

[jopsuk]

You'd have to tunnel through the most crowded subterannean parts of London.

You'd then have to abandon having Moorgate services share tracks with mainline trains.

You'd also not want to be going all the way to Welwyn or Hertford, let alone Stevenage and Letchworth.

 

[A-driver]

Looking at the location on Google Earth, looks like Moorgate isn't too many miles from the DLR, how feasible would it be (my guess is that it wouldn't be worth it financially) to extend the DLR to Moorgate and maybe further north?

The Moorgate branch isn't the busy bit, it's busy due to the fact that it brings commuters in from further north so extending from the south wouldn't be worth it.

It's an old line in need of a lot of work but I would say it's very low down on the list due to the fact that it is a very local route and improvements would only benifit those living directly on the route who work in the city. Projects like the NLL LO redevelopment, thameslink, cross rail etc benifit far more people by easing capacity on other lines, creating more links across London and carrying far more commuters than a 20mile suburban line.

 

[Mikey C]

Don't know why "impossible" came out as "im****ible"...

Perhaps you typed 'i' instead of 'o'

At the moment the service is run as a commuter line, intensive rush hour service, less during the day and evenings, nothing at weekends, but the area is changing. Old Street is becoming very vibrant, I'm sure the area around Essex Road is up and coming, it goes near the Arsenal Stadium etc. I wonder if it's one of those lines whose off peak use would be transformed by the overground effect

 

[swt_passenger]

Don't know why "impossible" came out as "im****ible"...

I think you have to accidentally type im****ible with an extra 'i'

 

[jon0844]

Whatever happens, new fixed 6 car trains with loads of room inside will probably cope with demand for a few more years. The downside might be less seats.

If the Northern line also improves, some people might opt to use that which will lighten the load a bit.

Of course, some might hope that people would use the service more to relieve the Northern line.

 

[43074]

It seems the ''long train'' concept a-la 700 is being applied elsewhere which is good considering the high demand on the Moorgate line and the fact that having two cabs between the outer cabs reduces capacity; I also notice the delivery for 2018, is it just coincidence that the 700 build for the Core is set to be complete by then, or might we see 'baby' Desiro Cities on the Moorgate line?

I don't think I've anything to suggest the Coastway 313s are being replaced though, so they look to stay until 2021.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Can these stay til post 2020? Thought there'd be DDA Issues?