New Gatwick Express Stock

[Fincra5]

I’m surprised that GATex’s stopping at Clapham Junction will cause a major issue with capacity. The proposed off-peak timetable for December 2015 suggests the following trains on the main line:
xx:00 GATex Brighton
xx:06 Bognor/Portsmouth
xx:09 Reigate
xx:15 GATex Gatwick
xx:17 Littlehampton/Eastbourne
xx:20 Brighton Semi-fast
xx:24 East Grinstead
xx:30 GATex Brighton
xx:36 Bognor/Southampton
xx:39 Tonbridge
xx:45 GATex Gatwick
xx:47 Littlehampton/Ore
xx:50 Brighton Semi-fast
xx:54 East Grinstead
xx:00 Repeat – GATex Brighton

Each of the GATex’s could depart 2 minutes earlier and stop at Clapham slipping into the normal connections at East Croydon without disrupting Thameslink/London Bridge trains.

I’m sure this timetable will be amended but it does show it could easily be done. Obviously if you add additional trains then you could speed up some of the GTex services

There was the idea of stopping Gatwick Express trains at CLJ as the footfall is large. Not sure what happened.

If only it was as simple as making the Gatwick Express depart 2 mins earlier...

 

[infobleep]

To see why more trains can't stop at Clapham Junction you only have to look at South West Trains. During the morning peak rush hour they can't stop any trains there on the fast line. In fact all the stopping services between Woking and Surbiton get diverted onto the fast line beyond Surbiton as there isn't the space on the slow lines to accommodate them.

If they wanted to stop trains at Clapham Junction then less trains would be able to run.

I guess the same would be true on the Brighton mainline, in that stopping more services would mean less trains could run.

 

[hwl]

To see why more trains can't stop at Clapham Junction you only have to look at South West Trains. During the morning peak rush hour they can't stop any trains there on the fast line. In fact all the stopping services between Woking and Surbiton get diverted onto the fast line beyond Surbiton as there isn't the space on the slow lines to accommodate them.

If they wanted to stop trains at Clapham Junction then less trains would be able to run.

I guess the same would be true on the Brighton mainline, in that stopping more services would mean less trains could run.

Precisely

 

[Starmill]

I accept there might be logistical reasons for running them as 10 car, perhaps to get another unit back to Victoria for the morning or whatever, but it would seem sensible to work out a way to make the stock a bit more 'dynamic'.

What would be more sensible is to ensure that the fares structure is such that there is not a much lower average loading on GX than other trains on the line at that time.

 

[anme]

What would be more sensible is to ensure that the fares structure is such that there is not a much lower average loading on GX than other trains on the line at that time.

I think this is the key point. If the GX is to continue, it needs to pull its weight at busy times and carry a useful number of people - however that is achieved.

 

[Bald Rick]

I’m surprised that GATex’s stopping at Clapham Junction will cause a major issue with capacity. The proposed off-peak timetable for December 2015 suggests the following trains on the main line:
xx:00 GATex Brighton
xx:06 Bognor/Portsmouth
xx:09 Reigate
xx:15 GATex Gatwick
xx:17 Littlehampton/Eastbourne
xx:20 Brighton Semi-fast
xx:24 East Grinstead
xx:30 GATex Brighton
xx:36 Bognor/Southampton
xx:39 Tonbridge
xx:45 GATex Gatwick
xx:47 Littlehampton/Ore
xx:50 Brighton Semi-fast
xx:54 East Grinstead
xx:00 Repeat – GATex Brighton

Each of the GATex’s could depart 2 minutes earlier and stop at Clapham slipping into the normal connections at East Croydon without disrupting Thameslink/London Bridge trains.

I’m sure this timetable will be amended but it does show it could easily be done. Obviously if you add additional trains then you could speed up some of the GTex services

It really, really, isn't that easy from a timetabling perspective. Let alone the political elements, specifically the airlines and the airport.

 

[Minstral25]

It really, really, isn't that easy from a timetabling perspective. Let alone the political elements, specifically the airlines and the airport.

Yes - I accept political issues but really they need to wake up as i'd expect most passengers will be heading for Thameslink trains to Central London in 2019 rather than an out of the way station in sleepy South-West London called Victoria.The connections at Farringdon alone to Crossrail will be immense.

As an outsider who does know the details of the timetabling process (i.e Armchair amataur). I can't see the timetabling issues suggested as it's a closed system, being a straight bit of track from a terminus platforms 13-19 in Victoria to the junction at East Croydon - there are no other junctions or crossings of tracks in the zone that are used regularly.

As long as the Gatwick Expresses present themselves at East Croydon at the same time as now then there would be little issues in the closed system (other possibly than timing for approaches at Victoria - but as most GATex's sit at Victoria for extended times should not be a great issue).

Departing 2/3 minutes earlier would allow GATex's to stop at CLJ and still arrive at ECR on time plus there are gaps from previous trains leaving to allow them to catch up previous train anyway which could be used.

But I am not an expert, so possibly there are other issues I can't see but I'd appreciate a better explanation.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

When are these new trains coming onto the Gatwick service?

 

[47802]

When are these new trains coming onto the Gatwick service?

Later this year, according to a poster on WNXX the first one is due on the Derby Test Track in about 3 weeks time, Bombardier also intend to start building the 1st Crossrail Aventra in August.

 

[Muzer]

Yes - I accept political issues but really they need to wake up as i'd expect most passengers will be heading for Thameslink trains to Central London in 2019 rather than an out of the way station in sleepy South-West London called Victoria.The connections at Farringdon alone to Crossrail will be immense.

As an outsider who does know the details of the timetabling process (i.e Armchair amataur). I can't see the timetabling issues suggested as it's a closed system, being a straight bit of track from a terminus platforms 13-19 in Victoria to the junction at East Croydon - there are no other junctions or crossings of tracks in the zone that are used regularly.

As long as the Gatwick Expresses present themselves at East Croydon at the same time as now then there would be little issues in the closed system (other possibly than timing for approaches at Victoria - but as most GATex's sit at Victoria for extended times should not be a great issue).

Departing 2/3 minutes earlier would allow GATex's to stop at CLJ and still arrive at ECR on time plus there are gaps from previous trains leaving to allow them to catch up previous train anyway which could be used.

But I am not an expert, so possibly there are other issues I can't see but I'd appreciate a better explanation.

Is the new timetable available yet? When it is, we could just perform this modification then run it in the Victoria Central SimSig sim and see if it works

 

[hwl]

Is the new timetable available yet? When it is, we could just perform this modification then run it in the Victoria Central SimSig sim and see if it works

The new proposed timetable is off peak when calling GatEx at Clapham Junction might work with a few adjustments. Attempting to call in the peaks is an entirely different matter as the dwell times for a service that stops is just too large and will lead to a reduction in the total number of trains that can run on the fasts.

 

[infobleep]

The new proposed timetable is off peak when calling GatEx at Clapham Junction might work with a few adjustments. Attempting to call in the peaks is an entirely different matter as the dwell times for a service that stops is just too large and will lead to a reduction in the total number of trains that can run on the fasts.

I'm fairly often I catch the 8.29 from Clapham Junction to Surbiton and on average it can be 4 minutes late.

The only way for it to be on time would be to miss out stops on it's way into London and for other trains to do the same. However I doubt train companies could get away with stopping no trains at all at Clapham Junction or other stations on route during peak.

Southern have capacity issues at East Croydon too so couldn't easily run more trains to Clapham Junction, which means the issue of not being able to stop trains there is reduced. They are often late though so I guess if they stopped less trains at Clapham Junction or other stations they might run on time but it goes back to the argument that you can't have no trains at all stop at Clapham Junction.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes - I accept political issues but really they need to wake up as i'd expect most passengers will be heading for Thameslink trains to Central London in 2019 rather than an out of the way station in sleepy South-West London called Victoria.The connections at Farringdon alone to Crossrail will be immense.

As an outsider who does know the details of the timetabling process (i.e Armchair amataur). I can't see the timetabling issues suggested as it's a closed system, being a straight bit of track from a terminus platforms 13-19 in Victoria to the junction at East Croydon - there are no other junctions or crossings of tracks in the zone that are used regularly.

As long as the Gatwick Expresses present themselves at East Croydon at the same time as now then there would be little issues in the closed system (other possibly than timing for approaches at Victoria - but as most GATex's sit at Victoria for extended times should not be a great issue).

Departing 2/3 minutes earlier would allow GATex's to stop at CLJ and still arrive at ECR on time plus there are gaps from previous trains leaving to allow them to catch up previous train anyway which could be used.

But I am not an expert, so possibly there are other issues I can't see but I'd appreciate a better explanation.

Interestingly, the London passenger modelling for post 2018 doesn't show that many people diverting to TL trains for the west end. For most Central London destinations west of Tottenham Ct Road it will be quicker via Victoria, and the journey planners will reflect that.

The issue with the TT is relatively simple. Presumably as well as stopping GatEx at CLJ on the way out, they would also need to on the way in. To avoid rewriting the whole Brighton Main line (again) they would need to stop at current times and arrive Vic 2 minutes later. Which is right in the path of the Brighton and Grinstead departures.

 

[Chris125]

I'd recommend reading the following 'London Reconnections 'article from their series about the future of the Brighton Mainline, in this case dealing with Clapham Junction (including GatEx) and it's possible future, including some potential track layout changes:

A Study in Sussex Part 5: Up The Junction

The problem with the tracks through Clapham Junction fast platforms is that they cannot handle any more trains. During the peak period there are roughly 16tph and of those four are Gatwick Express trains that don’t stop there. With the current signalling this is about all that can be achieved. So what is to be done? There are some minor improvements that have been and can be made. Beyond that Network Rail currently has two ideas as to how to solve this. Unfortunately one option is expensive and the other one is very expensive.

Chris

 

[Hophead]

The issue with the TT is relatively simple. Presumably as well as stopping GatEx at CLJ on the way out, they would also need to on the way in. To avoid rewriting the whole Brighton Main line (again) they would need to stop at current times and arrive Vic 2 minutes later. Which is right in the path of the Brighton and Grinstead departures.

Well, yes but the problem is in the extreme 'lumpiness' of the intervals between Victoria & East Croydon. I just cannot see how they expect that timetable to work, with 12-minute intervals fitted around Gatwick Expresses, followed by another local train just behind. Towards London, the 12-minute gap is closed with a train from Reigate - presumably 3 or 4 cars as it is currently.

Southern do have previous when it comes to unrealistic timetabling, as you, yourself, will be only too aware.

 

[Minstral25]

Interestingly, the London passenger modelling for post 2018 doesn't show that many people diverting to TL trains for the west end. For most Central London destinations west of Tottenham Ct Road it will be quicker via Victoria, and the journey planners will reflect that.

The issue with the TT is relatively simple. Presumably as well as stopping GatEx at CLJ on the way out, they would also need to on the way in. To avoid rewriting the whole Brighton Main line (again) they would need to stop at current times and arrive Vic 2 minutes later. Which is right in the path of the Brighton and Grinstead departures.

I would ask questions of that modelling a bit. Yes to Green Park & Oxford Circus I'd probably still go via Victoria line and of course anywhere West on District Line to Hammersmith or Richmond. (For Wimbledon I'd go to Clapham Junction and then South now).

However if I'm going to Paddington/Heathrow I'd go via Farringdon (One Change), Euston/St Pancras (One Train), Wembley/Metropolitan via Farringdon (one Change). So perhaps more of a split. Charing Cross/Westminster it could be either depending on first train north.

I understand it has to be both ways so GATex or the immediately following trains may need a slight change to commit the times. This is a proposed timetable so there is a chance to put a provision in now and enact when Electrostars take service over next year. I accept a 442 would never have a chance to fill that slot.

If it is 16 trains per hour maximum at Clapham Junction in the peak then surely it is possible to stop them all at CLJ if they are all 377/387 (remember no 442s this time next year). London Underground get over double that through a platform. That's 3.75 minutes per train which should be possible surely?

The timetable is part of the GOVIA consultation here http://www.thameslinkrailway.com/your-journey/timetables/december-timetable-consultation

 

[JonathanH]

Well, yes but the problem is in the extreme 'lumpiness' of the intervals between Victoria & East Croydon. I just cannot see how they expect that timetable to work, with 12-minute intervals fitted around Gatwick Expresses, followed by another local train just behind. Towards London, the 12-minute gap is closed with a train from Reigate - presumably 3 or 4 cars as it is currently.

Southern do have previous when it comes to unrealistic timetabling, as you, yourself, will be only too aware.

I got the impression that that Reigate / Tonbridge train is being moved from that time slot when Southern commented on the new timetable at the Redhill rail users meeting in April. However we won't know until early September when the timetable is available online.

It did seem a bit stupid for the first train to Victoria from East Croydon for 12 minutes to be the shortest one. I think that the inference was that they expected it to have more free capacity than a 8-car that had called at a greater number of stations.

The problem with the proposed up-direction timetable was that they moved the Gatwick Express by five minutes whilst the paths of many other services are fixed by patterns on the coast and the suburban area / London Overground. As a result, it left awkward gaps / paths for the trains which had to be re timed.

 

[swt_passenger]

London Underground get over double that through a platform. That's 3.75 minutes per train which should be possible surely?

LU use trains that generally travel at about half the speed of mainline trains, and are only about half the length (or less). That makes a huge difference to their achievable frequencies.

 

[Bald Rick]

LU use trains that generally travel at about half the speed of mainline trains, and are only about half the length (or less). That makes a huge difference to their achievable frequencies.

With signalling block sections somewhat less than half the length.

And a computer driving (for frequencies above 28tph).

 

[clagmonster]

The issue with the TT is relatively simple. Presumably as well as stopping GatEx at CLJ on the way out, they would also need to on the way in. To avoid rewriting the whole Brighton Main line (again) they would need to stop at current times and arrive Vic 2 minutes later. Which is right in the path of the Brighton and Grinstead departures.

I know the politics throw a spanner in the works, but if the Gatwicks were not required to use platforms 13 and 14, would that make the conflict in the throat at Victoria avoidable? At present, by arriving in the lowest numbered fast line platforms, it is always going to be impossible for a GatEx to arrive and another fast line train to depart.
Presumably, in the event of delays, does this lack of flexibility hinder the ability to get the service back in order? Would putting a Gatwick in 19, say, help service recovery if it were allowed?

All just a matter of interest and my personal education.

 

[tsr]

I know the politics throw a spanner in the works, but if the Gatwicks were not required to use platforms 13 and 14, would that make the conflict in the throat at Victoria avoidable? At present, by arriving in the lowest numbered fast line platforms, it is always going to be impossible for a GatEx to arrive and another fast line train to depart.
Presumably, in the event of delays, does this lack of flexibility hinder the ability to get the service back in order? Would putting a Gatwick in 19, say, help service recovery if it were allowed?

All just a matter of interest and my personal education.

Wholesale use of alternative platforms is presently avoided if at all possible. It could be done for all services, but there are I believe various stipulations about branding being applied on/around/to GX services in Southern's franchise agreement and suchlike, and it's quite possible that this and the dedicated facilities for GX-branded services would be rather a lot of hassle to move. You'd have to consider the other dedicated staff, ticket office, traincrew and taxi rank facilities for the GX platforms. This is not such a big problem at Gatwick Airport, for a number of reasons.

You do find occasional and also ad-hoc/as required platform changes for GX services - particularly the ones involving Brighton, it seems. Likewise "normal" Southern-branded trains using the GX platforms at Victoria, which causes a fair bit of consternation due to space limitations in the area reserved for what is usually such a busy airport service /sarcasm (oh, and people try to use Oyster cards at the main set of GX barriers, and can't!).

 

[Stats]

I know the politics throw a spanner in the works, but if the Gatwicks were not required to use platforms 13 and 14, would that make the conflict in the throat at Victoria avoidable? At present, by arriving in the lowest numbered fast line platforms, it is always going to be impossible for a GatEx to arrive and another fast line train to depart..

Not strictly true. Some of the higher numbered platforms can use the fast reversible to depart.

 

[Minstral25]

Wholesale use of alternative platforms is presently avoided if at all possible. It could be done for all services, but there are I believe various stipulations about branding being applied on/around/to GX services in Southern's franchise agreement and suchlike, and it's quite possible that this and the dedicated facilities for GX-branded services would be rather a lot of hassle to move. You'd have to consider the other dedicated staff, ticket office, traincrew and taxi rank facilities for the GX platforms. This is not such a big problem at Gatwick Airport, for a number of reasons.

You do find occasional and also ad-hoc/as required platform changes for GX services - particularly the ones involving Brighton, it seems. Likewise "normal" Southern-branded trains using the GX platforms at Victoria, which causes a fair bit of consternation due to space limitations in the area reserved for what is usually such a busy airport service /sarcasm (oh, and people try to use Oyster cards at the main set of GX barriers, and can't!).

Yes but as these trains generally run almost empty - having the dedicated stuff for less than 0.1% of the passengers using Victoria seems over the top. Save money and get rid of them unless the Airport wants to stump up all the additional costs of providing this. In fact let the airport pay for Gatwick Express in total including the trains, 4 slots per hour on the line, staff etc - won't make them any money

 

[Aictos]

Seeing as a few peak time Gatwick Expresses are extended to Brighton, when the new units arrive will all Gatwick Express Services be able to be extended to Brighton?

Just seems to be a waste of capacity to have half empty trains carting around fresh air to and from the airport when they could instead run the VIC - CLJ - ECR - BTN services on a 15 minute frequency instead with a extra stop at Gatwick Airport to cater for airport users with the old paths used by the Capital Coast Expresses used for other services.

It's not like we should waste valuable paths on the Brighton Mainline because we don't have the capacity to do so, not that I have anything against a major employer on the line but I'm being realistic with the limited resources available.

This might free up units to strengthen existing services which can only be good.

 

[Stats]

Seeing as a few peak time Gatwick Expresses are extended to Brighton, when the new units arrive will all Gatwick Express Services be able to be extended to Brighton?

Just seems to be a waste of capacity to have half empty trains carting around fresh air to and from the airport when they could instead run the VIC - CLJ - ECR - BTN services on a 15 minute frequency instead with a extra stop at Gatwick Airport to cater for airport users with the old paths used by the Capital Coast Expresses used for other services.

It's not like we should waste valuable paths on the Brighton Mainline because we don't have the capacity to do so, not that I have anything against a major employer on the line but I'm being realistic with the limited resources available.

This might free up units to strengthen existing services which can only be good.

From December 2 of the 4 off-peak services per hour will be VIC -GTW -BTN. As for the trains being empty I suggest people travel on the afternoon trains from VIC and then tell me they are empty.

 

[Bishopstone]

From December 2 of the 4 off-peak services per hour will be VIC -GTW -BTN. As for the trains being empty I suggest people travel on the afternoon trains from VIC and then tell me they are empty.

Yes, 'empty' is a major exaggeration, but I feel they mop-up an unacceptably low proportion of Zone 1 - Gatwick traffic, due in large part to the pricing structure, and failed efforts to create a strong stand-alone brand. It is time to drop the premium, and actively direct as many pax as possible onto the non-stop trains.

 

[Class377/5]

Yes, 'empty' is a major exaggeration, but I feel they mop-up an unacceptably low proportion of Zone 1 - Gatwick traffic, due in large part to the pricing structure, and failed efforts to create a strong stand-alone brand. It is time to drop the premium, and actively direct as many pax as possible onto the non-stop trains.

DfT have said they want the GatEx brand to be kept and enhanced so that's never going to happen.

 

[Bishopstone]

DfT have said they want the GatEx brand to be kept and enhanced so that's never going to happen.

I think they will only be able to hold that line for so long, assuming Gatwick doesn't get the second runway, given passenger growth on the wider network.

The brand, such that it is, has already been eroded over the years by, eg:

i) The Brighton extensions.
ii) Removal of on-train ticketing.
iii) Removal of on-train staff, driver aside.
iv) Removal of the catering trolley from many services, and non-appearance on others for which it is booked.
v) Removal of revenue protection from First Class, linked to (iii), despite the considerable fare premium.
vi) Use of unsuitable rolling stock.

Come next year, half of the trains will function primarily as Brighton expresses, using rolling stock that might be almost identical, internally, to the 'cheap' Thameslink option. Oh, and Network Card discounts are now given.

It isn't a premium service any more, and it shouldn't be priced as such. Drop the premium, and you free badly needed capacity on Coastway and via Redhill trains.

 

[physics34]

I think they will only be able to hold that line for so long, assuming Gatwick doesn't get the second runway, given passenger growth on the wider network.

The brand, such that it is, has already been eroded over the years by, eg:

i) The Brighton extensions.
ii) Removal of on-train ticketing.
iii) Removal of on-train staff, driver aside.
iv) Removal of the catering trolley from many services, and non-appearance on others for which it is booked.
v) Removal of revenue protection from First Class, linked to (iii), despite the considerable fare premium.
vi) Use of unsuitable rolling stock.

Come next year, half of the trains will function primarily as Brighton expresses, using rolling stock that might be almost identical, internally, to the 'cheap' Thameslink option. Oh, and Network Card discounts are now given.

It isn't a premium service any more, and it shouldn't be priced as such. Drop the premium, and you free badly needed capacity on Coastway and via Redhill trains.

The future

 

[Minstral25]

From December 2 of the 4 off-peak services per hour will be VIC -GTW -BTN. As for the trains being empty I suggest people travel on the afternoon trains from VIC and then tell me they are empty.

I travel from time to time in mid-afternoon trains and often have a carriage to myself.

The peak extensions to Brighton I have occasionally caught as far as Gatwick and in general they have some seats available - which for peak trains from Victoria is an exception.

They could obviously mop up more traffic by extra stop at Clapham without disturbing many from within the train and from Dec this year they will be formed of suitable stock to stop and pick up as fast as any other train on the line.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think they will only be able to hold that line for so long, assuming Gatwick doesn't get the second runway, given passenger growth on the wider network.

The brand, such that it is, has already been eroded over the years by, eg:

i) The Brighton extensions.
ii) Removal of on-train ticketing.
iii) Removal of on-train staff, driver aside.
iv) Removal of the catering trolley from many services, and non-appearance on others for which it is booked.
v) Removal of revenue protection from First Class, linked to (iii), despite the considerable fare premium.
vi) Use of unsuitable rolling stock.

Come next year, half of the trains will function primarily as Brighton expresses, using rolling stock that might be almost identical, internally, to the 'cheap' Thameslink option. Oh, and Network Card discounts are now given.

It isn't a premium service any more, and it shouldn't be priced as such. Drop the premium, and you free badly needed capacity on Coastway and via Redhill trains.

Agree