New Gatwick Express Stock

[LDP]

Just a curiosity of mine.

When the shiny new stock arrives next year on the Gatwick Express do you think we will see a reduction from 10 coaches down to 8?

Getting a bit paranoid as the extra services from Burgess Hill/Wivelsfield in the early morning have been reduced in frequency and are now heaving every day even with 10 coaches.

 

[Minstral25]

Just a curiosity of mine.

When the shiny new stock arrives next year on the Gatwick Express do you think we will see a reduction from 10 coaches down to 8?

Getting a bit paranoid as the extra services from Burgess Hill/Wivelsfield in the early morning have been reduced in frequency and are now heaving every day even with 10 coaches.

Been trying to do the Maths on that one too. Have they bought enough to run 12 Coach trains on all services.

Also hoping they will start stopping at Clapham Junction to remove all the suitcases off local services from there. Seems pointless a 8-12 coach gleaming new train should run past overloaded platforms empty

Highly approve of the extensions though - well overdue

 

[hwl]

Been trying to do the Maths on that one too. Have they bought enough to run 12 Coach trains on all services.

Also hoping they will start stopping at Clapham Junction to remove all the suitcases off local services from there. Seems pointless a 8-12 coach gleaming new train should run past overloaded platforms empty

Highly approve of the extensions though - well overdue

They haven't - It will be a mix of 8 & 12 car services.

Looks like 9 diagrams needed and if you assume 24 units (of 27) available everyday, that would give 6x 12 car and 3x 8 car diagrams

Not chance of stopping at CLJ as it would reduce the max tph on the line

 

[47802]

Better not mention the fact a 12 car 387 will probably have slightly less seats than a 10 car 442 then.

But there will be more room to stand around the doors and maybe a bit easier for passengers to get their luggage off

 

[LLivery]

Well seeing the Gatwick Express is probably the most empty off peak service in the entire Southern Region, I don't think there will be an issue. You could probably run a two car 171 on some diagrams and it still wouldn't be overcrowded. But surly 12 cars in peaks will be done.

 

[GatwickDepress]

Well seeing the Gatwick Express is probably the most empty off peak service in the entire Southern Region, I don't think there will be an issue. You could probably run a two car 171 on some diagrams and it still wouldn't be overcrowded. But surly 12 cars in peaks will be done.

While Sussex coast services out of CLJ and ECR are rammed full of holidaymakers to Gatwick... madness, isn't it?

 

[Stats]

I am fairly sure they have said all GatEx peak services will be 12 car, though I can't find a reference to that right now.

 

[jon0844]

Can't wait to count how many people on a 12 car service at midnight if that's true!

Still, having an entire coach for yourself might just make the premium worthwhile!

 

[hwl]

I am fairly sure they have said all GatEx peak services will be 12 car, though I can't find a reference to that right now.

I don't think there is enough stock for that, any statement around 12 car would have been carefully worded something like "12car services in peak" which doesn't actually mean all services in peak will be 12car...

However there won't be the current gaps in peak services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Can't wait to count how many people on a 12 car service at midnight if that's true!

Still, having an entire coach for yourself might just make the premium worthwhile!

I suspect they will run 4 car off peak

 

[tsr]

Can't wait to count how many people on a 12 car service at midnight if that's true!

Still, having an entire coach for yourself might just make the premium worthwhile!

You can get that experience for an awful lot less money on many an off-peak Uckfield or Horsham-Dorking train!

As for services at midnight/overnight, these do vary in terms of loadings, with significant variations and even some moderately busy trains. It's some of the daytime ones which I do worry about. 4 coaches would be very sensible! Or rebrand the 377/3s

 

[Stats]

I don't think there is enough stock for that, any statement around 12 car would have been carefully worded something like "12car services in peak" which doesn't actually mean all services in peak will be 12car...

I think the reference was for the peak extensions to/from Brighton. I would certainly expect all the current 10 car services from Brighton to be 12 car. Naturally those not on Brighton diagrams wouldn't be 12 car.

I suspect they will run 4 car off peak

I sincerely hope not, there are plenty of off-peak services which are busy to full. Add in Brighton passengers and 4 cars will not be sufficient.

 

[jon0844]

I think at night, where Southern currently run 10 car services even after midnight, with virtually nobody on them, it would make sense to split the trains (if they can be split and aren't going to be a fixed 8 or 12 car formation with open walkways like the 700s) and not run them as 8 or 12 car.

Trains might be quite environmentally friendly, but there's no way that the GatEx trains need 8, 10 or 12 cars at night.

I accept there might be logistical reasons for running them as 10 car, perhaps to get another unit back to Victoria for the morning or whatever, but it would seem sensible to work out a way to make the stock a bit more 'dynamic'.

 

[GodAtum]

I was a late 4 coach 377 to Brighton. At Clapham, not everyone could get on.

 

[physics34]

Better not mention the fact a 12 car 387 will probably have slightly less seats than a 10 car 442 then.

But there will be more room to stand around the doors and maybe a bit easier for passengers to get their luggage off

The only pic I've seen of the interior plans makes it look like they will have a very similar layout to their southern cousins... Just red!

 

[D365]

I accept there might be logistical reasons for running them as 10 car, perhaps to get another unit back to Victoria for the morning or whatever, but it would seem sensible to work out a way to make the stock a bit more 'dynamic'.

The fact that the Class 442s don't have autocouplers so they take a bit longer to split and join, doesn't help.

Saying that though, I don't know if it was any better with the former Class 460 fleet.

 

[Minstral25]

I was a late 4 coach 377 to Brighton. At Clapham, not everyone could get on.

That was the 21:02 / 22:02 / 23:02 services which were diverted in January. They were full of Brighton passengers who should have got the :06 services which overtook the :02 as it went through Redhill. Overloading has continued now they are Horsham trains, still 4 coaches and the xx:10 to Horsham now departs from London Bridge.

 

[Domh245]

With the 460, it was an 8 car fixed formation, I don't think many platforms at gatwick or victoria would be able to take a 16 car train

 

[Minstral25]

They haven't - It will be a mix of 8 & 12 car services.

Looks like 9 diagrams needed and if you assume 24 units (of 27) available everyday, that would give 6x 12 car and 3x 8 car diagrams

Not chance of stopping at CLJ as it would reduce the max tph on the line

Will the half-hourly Brighton extensions all be 12 coaches as they replace the Brighton fasts?

The 442's couldn't stop at Clapham Junction as the time in the platform was too long because of the doors but presumably 387/2's will be able to make a much faster stop. Along with the plans to spread trains more in the December 2015 timetable why can't the GatEx's stop, if not all day at least off-peak and weekends?

 

[tsr]

With the 460, it was an 8 car fixed formation, I don't think many platforms at gatwick or victoria would be able to take a 16 car train

They wouldn't fit onto any of the platforms at Gatwick, and I'm pretty sure none at Victoria either. I think the point is more that the 460s were run (like the 442s are now) in relatively long formations, whether or not necessary.

 

[Fincra5]

This will have to be worked that Either GatEx or SN drivers may have to accept 12car DOO on GatEx?

 

[Domh245]

The 442's couldn't stop at Clapham Junction as the time in the platform was too long because of the doors but presumably 387/2's will be able to make a much faster stop. Along with the plans to spread trains more in the December 2015 timetable why can't the GatEx's stop, if not all day at least off-peak and weekends?

Indeed. To maximise capacity, you surely want all trains doing the same thing. A GatEx train would require a path and a bit to prevent it catching any preceding train running on the fasts before purley, as it will 'jump' forward in the standard path at East Croydon and Clapham. Granted that at the moment, the less-than-sprightly-and-not-electrostareque acceleration profile of the 442s allow it to leave in a standard path and not catch up to a CLJ/ECR stopping train.

 

[southern442]

I was a late 4 coach 377 to Brighton. At Clapham, not everyone could get on.

A few weeks ago when there were delays, there was a GatEx service that they stopped at Clapham. I was hoping to get a bit of the 442 action down to Croydon, but when it arrived, I had second thoughts, as both the platform and train were rammed.

About 3 people could get on

 

[dk1]

Am i correct in saying that the 460s only had 300 seats? I know they where designed for an Airport service & had a baggage car but still. The same time we had those 319s on the Brighton 'fasts' with 2+2 seating with wide aisles & tons of legroom. Neither was that suited to make the most of the scarce capacity on the BML.

 

[47802]

I'm curious to see what they do for first, is it going to be

A. Like the current 387's with naff all difference from standard

B. 2+2 seating but with different and maybe better trim etc.

C. Proper 2+1 Seating.

 

[Minstral25]

Indeed. To maximise capacity, you surely want all trains doing the same thing. A GatEx train would require a path and a bit to prevent it catching any preceding train running on the fasts before purley, as it will 'jump' forward in the standard path at East Croydon and Clapham. Granted that at the moment, the less-than-sprightly-and-not-electrostareque acceleration profile of the 442s allow it to leave in a standard path and not catch up to a CLJ/ECR stopping train.

So stopping it at Clapham would have no material affect on the Victoria to East Croydon Services and current issues at East Croydon remain so no change. Thus a stop at Clapham Junction is easily accommodated.

It's not so important to stop at East Croydon as many ECR to GTW passengers have Thameslink, Southern "Victoria" and Southern "London Bridge" services to get to Gatwick so they are more spread.

Also Gatwick passengers cause more issues at Clapham Junction as there are firstly less trains for them to get plus secondly there are probably more passengers off the West London Line and South West Trains services than arriving at East Croydon for Gatwick.

 

[Bald Rick]

Indeed. To maximise capacity, you surely want all trains doing the same thing. A GatEx train would require a path and a bit to prevent it catching any preceding train running on the fasts before purley, as it will 'jump' forward in the standard path at East Croydon and Clapham. Granted that at the moment, the less-than-sprightly-and-not-electrostareque acceleration profile of the 442s allow it to leave in a standard path and not catch up to a CLJ/ECR stopping train.

Not so. Capacity work has been done which shows that stopping everything at Clapham reduces potential throughput.

 

[tsr]

Not so. Capacity work has been done which shows that stopping everything at Clapham reduces potential throughput.

Indeed. It is pretty amazing how often you slow down a little following a train into Clapham Junction on the Down Fast, but then arrive with the platform starter changing to green, which you then sit at for at least 90 seconds whilst people alight and then board... Now, if you could go straight through on greens, that would actually make sense timing-wise for more services. It just might not benefit so many passengers, especially given just how averse BML commuters are to catching all-stations stoppers (sometimes with good reason, sometimes not).

 

[Kite159]

I wonder if a service which started at Clapham Junction (using P16 or P17) could be accommodated to run fast to Gatwick Airport to cater for passengers at Clapham Junction wanting Gatwick.
Although the biggest issue would be crossing over the slow lines to get to the fast lines.

 

[physics34]

I wonder if a service which started at Clapham Junction (using P16 or P17) could be accommodated to run fast to Gatwick Airport to cater for passengers at Clapham Junction wanting Gatwick.
Although the biggest issue would be crossing over the slow lines to get to the fast lines.

Sadly that will never happen. The Milton Keynes services used to do that but not any longer to improve pathing at Balham. I have suggested some fast points on the straight between Wandsworth common and Balham but thatll never happen either.

 

[Minstral25]

Not so. Capacity work has been done which shows that stopping everything at Clapham reduces potential throughput.

I’m surprised that GATex’s stopping at Clapham Junction will cause a major issue with capacity. The proposed off-peak timetable for December 2015 suggests the following trains on the main line:
xx:00 GATex Brighton
xx:06 Bognor/Portsmouth
xx:09 Reigate
xx:15 GATex Gatwick
xx:17 Littlehampton/Eastbourne
xx:20 Brighton Semi-fast
xx:24 East Grinstead
xx:30 GATex Brighton
xx:36 Bognor/Southampton
xx:39 Tonbridge
xx:45 GATex Gatwick
xx:47 Littlehampton/Ore
xx:50 Brighton Semi-fast
xx:54 East Grinstead
xx:00 Repeat – GATex Brighton

Each of the GATex’s could depart 2 minutes earlier and stop at Clapham slipping into the normal connections at East Croydon without disrupting Thameslink/London Bridge trains.

I’m sure this timetable will be amended but it does show it could easily be done. Obviously if you add additional trains then you could speed up some of the GTex services