New continental connections

[LLivery]

Yes, it's that time again, new direct London - continental connections are being reported.

Richard Clinnick, RAIL Assist. Ed. on Twitter is reporting active discussions for London to Bordeaux via the new LGV Sud Europe Atlantique in possibly two years. Also, it appears that HS1 itself is developing direct services from London to Köln, Frankfurt and Geneva. With the success of Amsterdam, it's interesting times ahead.

From his Twitter: https://twitter.com/Clinnick1/status/990838465993564160

Direct trains from St Pancras-Bordeaux, using recently-opened high speed line, could start in two years. HS1 Ltd, Lisea, Eurostar and SNCF in discussions. HS1 Ltd also developing direct routes for Geneva and Frankfurt

 

[skifans]

Very interesting if it happens, but personally i'd rather more services from non-London destination in the UK to their current destinations instead.

 

[Wirewiper]

Bordeaux could be a good jumping-off point for Donostia/San Sebastian, especially if the plans to run through trains from France come to fruition (a standard-gauge line is being laid from the French border).

Deutsche Bahn once planned to operate a route from London to Köln and Frankfurt (via Brussels) so I wonder if they are involved in the HS1 proposal?

 

[LLivery]

Very interesting if it happens, but personally i'd rather more services from non-London destination in the UK to their current destinations instead.

Unfortunately, we never embraced Schengen...

Bordeaux could be a good jumping-off point for Donostia/San Sebastian, especially if the plans to run through trains from France come to fruition (a standard-gauge line is being laid from the French border).

Deutsche Bahn once planned to operate a route from London to Köln and Frankfurt (via Brussels) so I wonder if they are involved in the HS1 proposal?

We'll see, Toulouse is the primary target for the LGV extension I think and the French-Spanish LGV lines are taking painfully long to progress. As for Germany, I was also wondering if it was DB-HS1 consortium but I doubt they'd be very interested in London-Geneva, Thalys would make more sense. Who knows, an airline or even SBB CFF FFS could be involved.

 

[skifans]

Unfortunately, we never embraced Schengen...

That's true, but presumably passport and checks are done before boarding in London (I have never travels on Eurostar), why could these checks not be done before boarding at other stations and then forbid travel just within the UK?

 

[gordonthemoron]

That's true, but presumably passport and checks are done before boarding in London (I have never travels on Eurostar), why could these checks not be done before boarding at other stations and then forbid travel just within the UK?

because there's not much call for travel between Brum (for instance) and Brussels (also for instance)

 

[317666]

That's true, but presumably passport and checks are done before boarding in London (I have never travels on Eurostar), why could these checks not be done before boarding at other stations and then forbid travel just within the UK?

Because you need to have at least one or two platforms sealed off so that they are inaccessible without passing through passport control/security, and then you also need the space to actually carry the checks out! One of the main things stopping a direct London - Cologne service is the lack of sufficient space at Köln Hbf to do this.

 

[GingerSte]

Because you need to have at least one or two platforms sealed off so that they are inaccessible without passing through passport control/security, and then you also need the space to actually carry the checks out! One of the main things stopping a direct London - Cologne service is the lack of sufficient space at Köln Hbf to do this.

Cologne HBf is quite like Brussels Zuid, in that it has the concourse below the tracks, and a lot of that area is taken by shops. The screening/waiting area could do the same as the screening/waiting area at Brussels, and take some of that space.

As for the platforms, I think it would be tight but do-able. If we were doing "the Amsterdam solution" (ie back half is Amsterdam to London pax, front half is Amsterdam-Brussels, cleared and checked and then used for Brussels-London), we would only be talking one end of the platform. Screens in the style of Brussels platform 3 would help with that. You would need a lift and escalator from the screening/waiting area, but that could also be sorted.

Also, the platforms would only need to be sterilised for half an hour before the London-bound trains. These would presumably be outside of the main peaks for international services.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Bordeaux could be a good jumping-off point for Donostia/San Sebastian, especially if the plans to run through trains from France come to fruition (a standard-gauge line is being laid from the French border).

Deutsche Bahn once planned to operate a route from London to Köln and Frankfurt (via Brussels) so I wonder if they are involved in the HS1 proposal?

I think some years ago there was a eurostar to/from Bordeaux, may have been a one off, with a stop on the way back to the UK for security/customs/immigration, rather like on the south of France services now.

 

[rf_ioliver]

Well Finland and Russia manage on-train passport and immigration checks on the cross-border Allegro services...still not sure why this isn't possible between two EU countries? OK, I've had the answers that the UK is "special" and the UK has a huge immigration problem, but honestly how many illegal immigrants use Eurostar, or even how hard can one make it that such on-board checks are not possible?

t.

Ian

 

[transmanche]

Well Finland and Russia manage on-train passport and immigration checks on the cross-border Allegro services...still not sure why this isn't possible between two EU countries? OK, I've had the answers that the UK is "special" and the UK has a huge immigration problem, but honestly how many illegal immigrants use Eurostar, or even how hard can one make it that such on-board checks are not possible?

It's not just the passport/immigration checks that are an issue for cross-channel rail services, but the airport-style security screening of passengers and luggage before boarding.

With regards to the services between Finland and Russia, most passengers are going to require a visa to travel between Russia and the Schengen zone. To an extent, that simplifies the on-train inspection as they will just be checking that visas are valid rather than having to do comprehensive immigration checks or investigations.

 

[30907]

OK, I've had the answers that the UK is "special" and the UK has a huge immigration problem, but honestly how many illegal immigrants use Eurostar, or even how hard can one make it that such on-board checks are not possible?

Ask the new Home Secretary?

Cologne HBf is quite like Brussels Zuid, in that it has the concourse below the tracks, and a lot of that area is taken by shops. The screening/waiting area could do the same as the screening/waiting area at Brussels, and take some of that space. (....)
Also, the platforms would only need to be sterilised for half an hour before the London-bound trains. These would presumably be outside of the main peaks for international services.

There's one non-island platform at Koeln Hbf, with access to the DB Lounge, but I'm not sure it's full ES length. Koeln station is one of the most intensively worked in Germany too, so platform space is at a premium, and I suspect that applies to street-level areas too, as the station is so central. Realistically, a sterile solution has to be economical to make it worth while.

 

[urpert]

This quotation from the Rail article interested me:

“Eurostar has previously operated an indirect route and has expressed interest in running a direct service. However, this may not necessarily be a Eurostar operation,” HS1 Ltd Chief Executive Dyan Crowther told RAIL.

Are they hinting at open access (Veolia et al) or an SNCF-run service?

 

[LLivery]

There's one non-island platform at Koeln Hbf, with access to the DB Lounge, but I'm not sure it's full ES length. Koeln station is one of the most intensively worked in Germany too, so platform space is at a premium, and I suspect that applies to street-level areas too, as the station is so central. Realistically, a sterile solution has to be economical to make it worth while.

This is a problem that is clearly difficult to overcome. It's like taking a platform from Birmingham New Street, but hopefully German innovation and efficiency prevails.

This quotation from the Rail article interested me:

“Eurostar has previously operated an indirect route and has expressed interest in running a direct service. However, this may not necessarily be a Eurostar operation,” HS1 Ltd Chief Executive Dyan Crowther told RAIL.

Are they hinting at open access (Veolia et al) or an SNCF-run service?

Global rail news says: https://www.globalrailnews.com/2018...-high-speed-link-between-london-and-bordeaux/

The owner and operator of the UK’s first high-speed line has revealed it is in advanced discussions with three international operators to launch a direct high-speed train from London to Bordeaux.

HS1 Ltd, Lisea, Eurotunnel and SNCF Réseau are working on agreed timetable slots and train routes and hope that a new international train operator will be able to get the route up and running “in a couple of years”.

By using the new 302km-long Southern Europe Atlantic high speed line – which opened in July, 2017 between Tours and Paris – the direct route will connect the two cities in less than five hours under the new plans.

A spokesperson for HS1 Ltd said that the direct route will be able to take on low cost airlines, which currently fly 1.2 million passengers per year between the two destinations

HS1 Ltd CEO Dyan Crowther added: “As we’ve seen with the recent introduction of the Eurostar London-Amsterdam service, there’s a real demand for international train services to provide a comfortable and better-connected service, especially for leisure journeys.

“This is the first time that railway operators have collaborated in this way and saves the train operator having to do a lot of legwork. The route is almost ready for a train operator to turn up and turn the key as soon as the UK and French Governments agree on border controls.

“With the right commitment, we could be looking at new services in the next couple of years.”

HS1 Ltd, Lisea, Eurotunnel and SNCF Réseau, the four infrastructure managers along the route, met in Bordeaux on April 25 to discuss developing Gare de Bordeaux-Saint-Jean station to facilitate international departures and to identify potential departure slots, cooperation with authorities and train paths.

HS1 is also in discussions with operators to launch routes to Frankfurt and Geneva and has appointed a new market development lead, Edmund Butcher, to develop these plans.

So definitely not Eurostar then, but sounds very promising.

Three International Operators? TGV? Thalys? No idea.

 

[Wirewiper]

The big stumbling block for operations through the Channel Tunnel is not immigration (or even customs, if the UK leaves the Customs Union).

It is the requirement enshrined in the Treaty of Canterbury, which set out the terms for construction and use of the Channel Tunnel, that all passengers travelling through the Tunnel be security screened.

The Treaty was signed at Canterbury Cathedral on 12th February by Foreign Secretary Sir Geoffrey Howe and French Minister of Foreign Affairs Roland Dumas on 12 February 1986, as the Tunnel would create a land border between the two countries for the first time. To put the security requirement into some sort of context, the Treaty was signed over a decade before the Good Friday Agreement, and at a time when Irish paramilitary activity was still a severe threat. Given that the UK and mainland Europe remains threatened by terrorism, albeit from a different source, I cannot see the security agreement being renegotiated any time soon.

 

[duesselmartin]

Ask the new Home Secretary?


There's one non-island platform at Koeln Hbf, with access to the DB Lounge, but I'm not sure it's full ES length. Koeln station is one of the most intensively worked in Germany too, so platform space is at a premium, and I suspect that applies to street-level areas too, as the station is so central. Realistically, a sterile solution has to be economical to make it worth while.

One could use Cologne Messe/Deutz for UK services. It is already a limited ICE stop and could be converted.

 

[30907]

One could use Cologne Messe/Deutz for UK services. It is already a limited ICE stop and could be converted.

That's an interesting suggestion. There are 4 island platforms so presumably one of them could be "sterilised". However, are they long enough, and is there an area that could be used for check in/passport/screening? I don't know Deutz well enough.

 

[Bald Rick]

I feel vindicated...

There was a thread on this about a year ago, possibly even this thread.

Eurostar only works in high volume flows. Also it will only work where that flow can compete door to door with air, or at least be close enough to air that people will be willing to trade journey time for more comfort / convenience. It is very unlikely that Eurostar will win on price, particularly for longer flows. Realistically, around 6 hours from London is going to be the limit for a regular service (as opposed to say the ski trains which only run at weekends for a very specific, high flow, high value market).

The issue is that a Eurostar will need to fill 600-700 seats to be viable. An A319 needs to fill about 130, and can therefore offer a much higher frequency (which is more attractive to passengers) for the same capacity.

As always, a good indicator of international market size is available by looking at Civil Aviation Authority data for air passenger numbers. Potential markets From London, with estimated journey times if calling at only the most major stations en route:

Amsterdam (under 4 hours non stop)
Frankfurt (5hrs) via Cologne (4hrs)
Geneva (5hrs)
Zurich (6hrs) via Basle (5hrs)
Marseille (6hrs) via Lyon (4 1/2h) (already done by Eurostar summer weekends only)
Bordeaux (4 1/2hrs)

Barcelona, Munich, Berlin, Nice, Hamburg, Stuttgart are all just too far to make a realistic rail market from London with current arrangements. Now, if UK joined Schengen and was border free, I think it quite likely that a London - Barcelona or London- Nice service that could pick up in Lille, Paris, Lyon would be viable. Ditto London-Münich calling at Brussels, Cologne, Frankfurt & Stuttgart or Nuremburg. But this isn't going to happen any time soon, unfortunately.

As it stands, it's not beyond the realms of possibility that all London - Brussels services will eventually be extended to either Amsterdam, or Frankfurt via Cologne. A twice daily London - Geneva service might also hold water, although finding paths on the LGV-PSE will be an issue. Finally a London-Bordeaux summer weekend service would also probably be a goer now that the LGV-SEA is open, although onward travel would be an issue here.

 

[Halish Railway]

One could use Cologne Messe/Deutz for UK services. It is already a limited ICE stop and could be converted.

Messe/Deutz already has its capacity constraints and as far as I know, a Eurostar train may still have to go via Cologne HBF when coming from Aachen (I would love to be proven wrong). Plus there’s the fact that all the elevated platforms are of the island Island type linked by an underpass making the station not as attractive or suitable to International travel companies like Eurostar or a new ICE international service.

For those not familiar with Cologne Messe/Deutz Station, I would describe it as a smaller Clapham Junction with lovely art-deco style architecture.

 

[DaiGog]

Köln Messe/Deutz might work. Platform lengths may of course be an issue, but from the satellite images there would appear to be room to extend at least one of the islands at the south end. There is plenty of space at the front to build a check-in / security facility (they have recently redeveloped the taxi rank / drop-off area - Ottoplatz) and the station serves the Lanxess Arena and Koelnmesse, which as concert / sports venue / trade fair facilities (large ones at that), could attract international rail custom. Re-name it Köln/Bonn International and away you go!

 

[30907]

as far as I know, a Eurostar train may still have to go via Cologne HBF when coming from Aachen (I would love to be proven wrong).

Yes it would, but it needn't make a passenger call. I can imagine a lot of panic though as the train passed through (and hotel owners round HBF would be annoyed...)

As I said, it's an interesting alternative to Gleis 1 at Hbf...

 

[Will Mitchell]

Is there not any scope for doing security checks on the train (using sniffer dogs?) and/or perhaps also using x-ray scanners at the entrance to a platform, with people forming an orderly queue to enter the platform via the scanning area? It may be the case that this actually becomes the norm for high speed trains over the coming years, meaning that stations like Köln Hbf might have to have dedicated, secure platforms for high speed, intercity and international services.

 

[duesselmartin]

Neighbouring Düsseldorf would gave platform space and a route from Aachen, but I guess not a prime destination.

 

[deltic]

The big stumbling block for operations through the Channel Tunnel is not immigration (or even customs, if the UK leaves the Customs Union).

It is the requirement enshrined in the Treaty of Canterbury, which set out the terms for construction and use of the Channel Tunnel, that all passengers travelling through the Tunnel be security screened.

The Treaty was signed at Canterbury Cathedral on 12th February by Foreign Secretary Sir Geoffrey Howe and French Minister of Foreign Affairs Roland Dumas on 12 February 1986, as the Tunnel would create a land border between the two countries for the first time. To put the security requirement into some sort of context, the Treaty was signed over a decade before the Good Friday Agreement, and at a time when Irish paramilitary activity was still a severe threat. Given that the UK and mainland Europe remains threatened by terrorism, albeit from a different source, I cannot see the security agreement being renegotiated any time soon.

Its a pretty strange requirement given that it does not apply to road traffic using the shuttle services

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Is there not any scope for doing security checks on the train (using sniffer dogs?) and/or perhaps also using x-ray scanners at the entrance to a platform, with people forming an orderly queue to enter the platform via the scanning area? It may be the case that this actually becomes the norm for high speed trains over the coming years, meaning that stations like Köln Hbf might have to have dedicated, secure platforms for high speed, intercity and international services.

They must already do something like that for the Winter Eurostar Ski-Trains as you don't have to get off in Paris or Lille to clear security. There was something similar some years ago when I caught the Sud Express to Portugal at Hendaye or Irun, it was very straightforward, but perhaps not so many passengers use that train compared to Eurostar.

 

[Bald Rick]

They must already do something like that for the Winter Eurostar Ski-Trains as you don't have to get off in Paris or Lille to clear security. There was something similar some years ago when I caught the Sud Express to Portugal at Hendaye or Irun, it was very straightforward, but perhaps not so many passengers use that train compared to Eurostar.

It’s done at Bourg St M and Moutiers AIUI. Also the reason why you can get the ski train direct to Aime (La Plagne) but not by return.

 

[332 > 444]

Hopefully some high up person can order these trains to stop at Stratford International so it can bring life back to the disused platforms there.

 

[jon0844]

Hopefully some high up person can order these trains to stop at Stratford International so it can bring life back to the disused platforms there.

Staff at the station keep hearing rumours but clearly nothing has happened, even if they have been renovating the platforms/escalators recently that may have prompted people, myself included, into thinking there might be a pending announcement.

 

[Daz28]

Its a pretty strange requirement given that it does not apply to road traffic using the shuttle services

Quite. If you wanted to smuggle a bomb into the country, just drive it over on a ferry. If you want to blow up the tunnel, then load a van or lorry and put it on Le Shuttle.

I’m not clear what X-Rays of luggage on Eurostar is attempting to prevent.

 

[RT4038]

Hopefully some high up person can order these trains to stop at Stratford International so it can bring life back to the disused platforms there.

Oh please not! Eurostar train are EXPRESS trains. This means that they don't stop every few minutes: the end to end journey time competing with the airlines is very important.