New continental connections

[RT4038]

Well Finland and Russia manage on-train passport and immigration checks on the cross-border Allegro services...still not sure why this isn't possible between two EU countries? OK, I've had the answers that the UK is "special" and the UK has a huge immigration problem, but honestly how many illegal immigrants use Eurostar, or even how hard can one make it that such on-board checks are not possible?

t.

Ian

The UK Government will not permit the possibility of passengers without entry rights to arrive on UK soil. This does not happen on any other mode either. Either UK Immigration officers are going to check prior to departure (as happens on Eurostar at Paris/Bruxelles/Lille etc and on Euroshuttle/ ships at Calais) or on lightly trafficked ferry routes, and all airlines, the responsibility is taken by the carriers and immigration checks carried out on arrival. If a carrier brings a passenger without entry rights to UK soil they get a substantial fine and financial responsibility to accommodate and return the passenger. Too many arriving passengers without entry rights will result in suspension of operating rights. Anyone boarding a plane to the UK in foreign parts will notice how meticulous the staff are in checking passports and entry permissions. There is a good financial reason for this!

Checking passports on the train would mean having a stop before reaching the Channel to eject any passengers without entry rights. The French authorities would be none too pleased to have to cope with ejected passengers at Calais Frethun (or in some other place). Ejection would be confrontational and likely delay trains. The stop would also extend journey times.

You must also think about the cost of UK immigration staff and their French 'minders' riding about France checking passports. The size of the train and the possibility of confrontation with passengers without entry rights would probably mean a team of 5+ per train (plus paying for a SWAT team at Calais Frethun to deal with any problems). Each team might do a maximum of 2 trains per shift, unless more stops were added (in both directions) just to allow boarding and alighting of immigration staff, plus representatives of the French security services. This would be prohibitively expensive compared to one team of 5+ dealing with 7 or 8 trains per shift at Paris Nord, and slow down these EXPRESS services to be uncompetitive to air.

Not many illegal immigrants use Eurostar services because it is almost impossible to get on one without UK entry rights. It is all very well quoting the Finland-Russia through trains (of much smaller capacity), but Russia is not exactly the sort of place that many without correct papers tries to enter or leave. It is certainly not on an economic migrant route from third party countries. If it were, these old fashioned on board checks whilst the train is moving would soon stop.

Is this hard enough for you?

 

[Will Mitchell]

Oh please not! Eurostar train are EXPRESS trains. This means that they don't stop every few minutes: the end to end journey time competing with the airlines is very important.

The stops at Ashford and Ebbsfleet are already superfluous. The last thing we need is yet another stop at Stratford. That would take us to three stops in 60 miles to the channel... a nonesense for an express train service.

 

[Will Mitchell]

The UK Government will not permit the possibility of passengers without entry rights to arrive on UK soil. This does not happen on any other mode either. Either UK Immigration officers are going to check prior to departure (as happens on Eurostar at Paris/Bruxelles/Lille etc and on Euroshuttle/ ships at Calais) or on lightly trafficked ferry routes, and all airlines, the responsibility is taken by the carriers and immigration checks carried out on arrival. If a carrier brings a passenger without entry rights to UK soil they get a substantial fine and financial responsibility to accommodate and return the passenger. Too many arriving passengers without entry rights will result in suspension of operating rights. Anyone boarding a plane to the UK in foreign parts will notice how meticulous the staff are in checking passports and entry permissions. There is a good financial reason for this!

Checking passports on the train would mean having a stop before reaching the Channel to eject any passengers without entry rights. The French authorities would be none too pleased to have to cope with ejected passengers at Calais Frethun (or in some other place). Ejection would be confrontational and likely delay trains. The stop would also extend journey times.

You must also think about the cost of UK immigration staff and their French 'minders' riding about France checking passports. The size of the train and the possibility of confrontation with passengers without entry rights would probably mean a team of 5+ per train (plus paying for a SWAT team at Calais Frethun to deal with any problems). Each team might do a maximum of 2 trains per shift, unless more stops were added (in both directions) just to allow boarding and alighting of immigration staff, plus representatives of the French security services. This would be prohibitively expensive compared to one team of 5+ dealing with 7 or 8 trains per shift at Paris Nord, and slow down these EXPRESS services to be uncompetitive to air.

Not many illegal immigrants use Eurostar services because it is almost impossible to get on one without UK entry rights. It is all very well quoting the Finland-Russia through trains (of much smaller capacity), but Russia is not exactly the sort of place that many without correct papers tries to enter or leave. It is certainly not on an economic migrant route from third party countries. If it were, these old fashioned on board checks whilst the train is moving would soon stop.

Is this hard enough for you?

Hard but surely not beyond the wit of man, especially given the potential benefits. Removing unfair subsidies and advantages for airlines might also make a solution more likely to be found.

 

[jon0844]

Oh please not! Eurostar train are EXPRESS trains. This means that they don't stop every few minutes: the end to end journey time competing with the airlines is very important.

The rumours I have heard would be more that some trains wouldn't get as far as St Pancras, but that in itself brings up the question of whether a new service could compete by not quite reaching central London.

 

[leshuttle]

The stops at Ashford and Ebbsfleet are already superfluous. The last thing we need is yet another stop at Stratford. That would take us to three stops in 60 miles to the channel... a nonesense for an express train service.

Stratford International via the regional station has connections on to National Rail, DLR and Tube, Overground and soon Crossrail. It would be interesting to see how more routes/trains might make the case for extra terminal capacity needed before St Pancras gets too crowded. Stopping at Stratford could spread the load somewhat and, although the station itself doesn't have many shops/cafes, there's Westfield right next door.

 

[swaldman]

I’m not clear what X-Rays of luggage on Eurostar is attempting to prevent.

I always assumed it was the result of some British civil servant saying "Well airports have this, so an international train station should have it too". It doesn't seem to make much sense otherwise when, as you say, one can drive onto Le Shuttle with only spot checks.

 

[Joe Paxton]

The stops at Ashford and Ebbsfleet are already superfluous. The last thing we need is yet another stop at Stratford. That would take us to three stops in 60 miles to the channel... a nonesense for an express train service.

Ebbsfleet is well used by Eurostar passengers. It's a park-and-ride station that's well connected to the motorway network.

 

[Joe Paxton]

The rumours I have heard would be more that some trains wouldn't get as far as St Pancras, but that in itself brings up the question of whether a new service could compete by not quite reaching central London.

Ouigo, the low-cost TGV service run by an SNCF subsidiary, uses some secondary stations - in particular, it doesn't serve any of the Paris termini, instead it serves Marne-la-Vallée, Chessy or CdG airport in the suburbs or outskirts of Paris (and Stratford is more central than any of them).

I guess a potential new operator with trains terminating at Stratford could try and negotiate to have onward travel on Southeastern's Javelin service to/from St Pancras, though I can't see that being workable at peak times!

 

[jon0844]

Ouigo, the low-cost TGV service run by an SNCF subsidiary, uses some secondary stations - in particular, it doesn't serve any of the Paris termini, instead it serves Marne-la-Vallée, Chessy or CdG airport in the suburbs or outskirts of Paris (and Stratford is more central than any of them).

I guess a potential new operator with trains terminating at Stratford could try and negotiate to have onward travel on Southeastern's Javelin service to/from St Pancras, though I can't see that being workable at peak times!

Given the development of Stratford, if there are more hotels built then people could actually come to Stratford and use that as a base, then travel in to central London separately as and when required. That could actually work quite well.

 

[Wirewiper]

What I would like to have seen proposed, as an alternative to a third runway and additional terminal at Heathrow, is a link off Highspeed 1 under London to Heathrow Airport.

Regular trains from Heathrow Airport would replace most of the short-haul flights to Paris and Brussels, and also some flights to places like Amsterdam and Koln. Interlining passengers could have a train ticket sector included in their airline booking, in the same way as many passengers arriving in Paris Charles de Gaulle today have the direct TGV to Brussels-Midi included in their flight ticket. These trains would stop alternately at one (and usually no more than one) of Stratford International, Ebbsfleet International or Ashford International, allowing stops at the latter two stations to be taken out of most services originating/terminating at London St. Pancras International.

Just to be clear, I am not proposing that these new services carry UK domestic traffic to and from Heathrow Airport. However such a link could be provided by a new Southeastern Highspeed service.

 

[LLivery]

Ouigo, the low-cost TGV service run by an SNCF subsidiary, uses some secondary stations - in particular, it doesn't serve any of the Paris termini, instead it serves Marne-la-Vallée, Chessy or CdG airport in the suburbs or outskirts of Paris (and Stratford is more central than any of them).

I guess a potential new operator with trains terminating at Stratford could try and negotiate to have onward travel on Southeastern's Javelin service to/from St Pancras, though I can't see that being workable at peak times!

I was thinking this. Has Ouigo been very popular? Seeing TGV tickets were already quite good value, does the increased journey times outweigh the cheaper ticket?

Given the development of Stratford, if there are more hotels built then people could actually come to Stratford and use that as a base, then travel in to central London separately as and when required. That could actually work quite well.

Indeed, Stratford is also getting a new university campus I believe. Perfect for students and Canary Wharf business. Increased services from West Anglia makes Stratford a better location for many.

 

[Halish Railway]

I was thinking this. Has Ouigo been very popular? Seeing TGV tickets were already quite good value, does the increased journey times outweigh the cheaper ticket?

Certainly, there are many Ouigo services that are formed of 2x Duplex sets, so it must make financial sense foe SNCF. IMO, it should be used as an example for other Railways in the world and tempt people out of budget Domestic flights and their cars.

 

[Ianno87]

Given the development of Stratford, if there are more hotels built then people could actually come to Stratford and use that as a base, then travel in to central London separately as and when required. That could actually work quite well.

Only problem with Stratford is the lack of turnback capability from/to the continent from the International (outer) platforms. It's either:

-Wrong line all the way through London Tunnel 2 as far as Dagenham (capacity/timetabling non-starter)
-Detrain, and continue same direction to St Pancras anyway (or reverse on the NLL connection - though signalling/standage/gradient may be an issue)

That and any 'low cost' operator would have to stomach the entire cost of stations/customs facilities at Stratford, that no other operator would use.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Only problem with Stratford is the lack of turnback capability from/to the continent from the International (outer) platforms. It's either:

-Wrong line all the way through London Tunnel 2 as far as Dagenham (capacity/timetabling non-starter)
-Detrain, and continue same direction to St Pancras anyway (or reverse on the NLL connection - though signalling/standage/gradient may be an issue)

That and any 'low cost' operator would have to stomach the entire cost of stations/customs facilities at Stratford, that no other operator would use.

Both very good points.

Ouigo in France may serve some secondary stations, but they are fully operating stations nonetheless and Ouigo utilise platforms that are already open and in operation, and they obviously don't have to worry about universal security screening / customs / passport control.

Stratford Int'l really does need to change its suffix!

 

[jon0844]

Both very good points.

Ouigo in France may serve some secondary stations, but they are fully operating stations nonetheless and Ouigo utilise platforms that are already open and in operation, and they obviously don't have to worry about universal security screening / customs / passport control.

Stratford Int'l really does need to change its suffix!

Just become two additional platforms for Stratford station (13 and 14?). Users of Stratford are used to long walks...!

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

a. It's security and passport scrutiny that mean that ES (or any competitor) has to have the specialist facilities at stations and 'check-in' that delays journeys. All pax joining long distance trains in Spain are also screened, but RENFE offers many more screening points and the delay never seems to be more than about 10 minutes. So doing the screening more quickly might be a more achievable objective!
b. The Home Office, now Border Force, did carry out passport checks on board the trains until c. 2005 or so, but worries about mass legal immigration and staff security led to this being replaced by checks at stations back then. Most passports/ID are now checked for biometric data as well and the list of those individuals who are suspect is continuously updated in real time, so the passport checks can now only realistically be done at boarding stations.
c. The Treaty of Canterbury indeed requires a security regime for passengers and goods using Eurotunnel. But not all pax, cars or goods need to be scrutinised. Cars and lorries are subject to some surveillance (ANPR in particular), but not every car or trucks is stopped: perhaps more like 1 in 100 to 500 are. Since 9/11, all ES passengers are security screened. Previously, it was done on a 'random' basis. This still seems to be a problem as neither StP or Paris-Nord terminals really have enough space to do this (although the French side has improved since they expanded the security area a few years book).
d. Both Koeln and Koeln-Deutz are a very busy stations, so there is no real possibility of taking any of the platforms out of use for a security facility. The improvement that would really help is to improve the timing of the connections from Germany to ES at Brussels, ie. have them arrive at Brussels at c.xx.10 past the hour to give c. 45mins connection. They mostly arrive at xx.30 or thereabouts -- meaning an hour's delay if you are going to London! This is a great timetabling meshing problem, of course, as the ICE and THA trains have to fit in with the DB ICE interval timetable at Frankfurt Flughafen and the equivalent on LGV Nord from Lille to Paris-Nord (including ES's own slots between Lille and Paris!) It's hard to do, but the German-UK traveller suffers most from not being able to do IT!

 

[Bald Rick]

What I would like to have seen proposed, as an alternative to a third runway and additional terminal at Heathrow, is a link off Highspeed 1 under London to Heathrow Airport.

Regular trains from Heathrow Airport would replace most of the short-haul flights to Paris and Brussels, and also some flights to places like Amsterdam and Koln. Interlining passengers could have a train ticket sector included in their airline booking, in the same way as many passengers arriving in Paris Charles de Gaulle today have the direct TGV to Brussels-Midi included in their flight ticket. These trains would stop alternately at one (and usually no more than one) of Stratford International, Ebbsfleet International or Ashford International, allowing stops at the latter two stations to be taken out of most services originating/terminating at London St. Pancras International.

Just to be clear, I am not proposing that these new services carry UK domestic traffic to and from Heathrow Airport. However such a link could be provided by a new Southeastern Highspeed service.

I used to think that, a long time ago.

However, even if such a link replaced every single flight between LHR and each of Paris, Brussels, Amsterdam, Köln, Düsseldorf, Frankfurt, Stuttgart, Lyon and Geneva, and then all the domestic flights to Manchester and Leeds (as they are on HS2), it would remove less than 25% of the capacity of the third runway.

 

[30907]

The improvement that would really help is to improve the timing of the connections from Germany to ES at Brussels, ie. have them arrive at Brussels at c.xx.10 past the hour to give c. 45mins connection. They mostly arrive at xx.30 or thereabouts -- meaning an hour's delay if you are going to London! This is a great timetabling meshing problem, of course, as the ICE and THA trains have to fit in with the DB ICE interval timetable at Frankfurt Flughafen and the equivalent on LGV Nord from Lille to Paris-Nord (including ES's own slots between Lille and Paris!) It's hard to do, but the German-UK traveller suffers most from not being able to do IT!

It would be easier for ES to shift its timetable 30 mins earlier.

 

[dutchflyer]

Have passed in a COACH (eurolines, once on Mega, this time a hired and very bad replacement for Nat.Express in that Euro-tunnel some 5-6 times by now (and many more by ferry, and on MOn 1/5 the through new €* direct LON-AMS-indeed a very good improvement) and by coach there never was that security check that we had to endure at St.Pancras this time.
So we always read that trains are apparently so much better as maligned planes because of lack of all the airport nervous procedures and they just copy that. Plus that my memories of the old €* were in seating etc not much better as RYAN or Easy-but thee new velaro's are indeed better.

 

[wellhouse]

Well Finland and Russia manage on-train passport and immigration checks on the cross-border Allegro services...still not sure why this isn't possible between two EU countries? OK, I've had the answers that the UK is "special" and the UK has a huge immigration problem, but honestly how many illegal immigrants use Eurostar, or even how hard can one make it that such on-board checks are not possible?

t.

Ian

When Eurostar launched, passport checks were carried out on board. My wife has a stamp in her passport (endorsed 'on request' since it wasn't required, but she wanted a souvenir).

I can't recall the precise details, but following an unfortunate incident with UK Immigration Officers whose conduct indicated undue familiarity with the more bracing refeshments available in the cafe bar, the UK Authorities considered it preferable for their staff to perform their duties at stations.

There are plenty of rail border crossings elsewhere in Europe where passport checks are undertaken on board.

 

[LLivery]

When Eurostar launched, passport checks were carried out on board. My wife has a stamp in her passport (endorsed 'on request' since it wasn't required, but she wanted a souvenir).

I can't recall the precise details, but following an unfortunate incident with UK Immigration Officers whose conduct indicated undue familiarity with the more bracing refeshments available in the cafe bar, the UK Authorities considered it preferable for their staff to perform their duties at stations.

There are plenty of rail border crossings elsewhere in Europe where passport checks are undertaken on board.

I didn't realise this. It will never happen again without the Daily Mail and Express throwing tantrums.

I used to think that, a long time ago.

However, even if such a link replaced every single flight between LHR and each of Paris, Brussels, Amsterdam, Köln, Düsseldorf, Frankfurt, Stuttgart, Lyon and Geneva, and then all the domestic flights to Manchester and Leeds (as they are on HS2), it would remove less than 25% of the capacity of the third runway.

Assuming because combined, most of these flights leave other airports. One of the best ways to maximise runway capacity is more airlines introducing high capacity A380s, especially for Trans-Atlantic, but airlines prefer to fly more aircraft "to give flexibility" than less. I would like to see less short haul flights though, obviously, a lot of people are connecting but if you live in London, flying to Brussels is just a waste of CO2.

 

[Bald Rick]

I didn't realise this. It will never happen again without the Daily Mail and Express throwing tantrums.



Assuming because combined, most of these flights leave other airports. One of the best ways to maximise runway capacity is more airlines introducing high capacity A380s, especially for Trans-Atlantic, but airlines prefer to fly more aircraft "to give flexibility" than less. I would like to see less short haul flights though, obviously, a lot of people are connecting but if you live in London, flying to Brussels is just a waste of CO2.

Heathrow has the majority of London flights to these locations taken together.

A380s are an interesting point. Because they are classified as ‘super heavy’, they need a larger gap behind them for anything smaller on each runway slot. This actually reduces runway capacity in terms of air traffic movements (ATM), but I don’t know what it would mean for passenger numbers; I assume their extra carrying capacity would offset the ATM reduction.

In any event, very few airlines more than three times daily to any North American city: New York (several airlines), Chicago (AA), Boston (BA), Toronto and Vancouver (Air Canada).

Agree about Brussels though.

 

[LLivery]

Heathrow has the majority of London flights to these locations taken together.

A380s are an interesting point. Because they are classified as ‘super heavy’, they need a larger gap behind them for anything smaller on each runway slot. This actually reduces runway capacity in terms of air traffic movements (ATM), but I don’t know what it would mean for passenger numbers; I assume their extra carrying capacity would offset the ATM reduction.

In any event, very few airlines more than three times daily to any North American city: New York (several airlines), Chicago (AA), Boston (BA), Toronto and Vancouver (Air Canada).

Agree about Brussels though.

Ah yes, never really thought about the wake turbulence and weight; you're most likely right. Though the A380plus may change the balance of cons into pros. As for the number of flights, I didn't realise this, I always thought Gatwick, Luton and Standard tipped it in their favour.

 

[Pugwash]

Oh please not! Eurostar train are EXPRESS trains. This means that they don't stop every few minutes: the end to end journey time competing with the airlines is very important.

My end to end journey time to Paris or Amsterdam would be much improved by being able to get on at Stratford International, would also prevent me wanting to drive to Ebbsfleet or Fly from Southend.

 

[stut]

Just become two additional platforms for Stratford station (13 and 14?). Users of Stratford are used to long walks...!

Stratford (Regional) goes up to 17 already, with the DLR platforms.

However, simply picking the next numbers up is far too logical for Stratford. I'd propose calling the new platforms 9a and 10b or, at a push, 0 and 0a.

 

[stut]

Also, on the point that the Eurostar is an express and shouldn't be stopping on its way out of London...

All Northbound Shinkansen out of Tokyo call at Ueno, and the Westbound ones at Shinagawa and Shin-Yokohama. Thank goodness, too, avoiding Tokyo station is one of the best ways to travel to/from Tokyo!

 

[jon0844]

Stratford (Regional) goes up to 17 already, with the DLR platforms.

However, simply picking the next numbers up is far too logical for Stratford. I'd propose calling the new platforms 9a and 10b or, at a push, 0 and 0a.

Yes, there cannot be any logic applied. If there are 17 platforms, how about platforms 20a and 23b?

 

[ag51ruk]

When Eurostar launched, passport checks were carried out on board. My wife has a stamp in her passport (endorsed 'on request' since it wasn't required, but she wanted a souvenir).

I can't recall the precise details, but following an unfortunate incident with UK Immigration Officers whose conduct indicated undue familiarity with the more bracing refeshments available in the cafe bar, the UK Authorities considered it preferable for their staff to perform their duties at stations.

There are plenty of rail border crossings elsewhere in Europe where passport checks are undertaken on board.

There used to be an office on the Eurostar sets for Border staff (I think in one of the First Class coaches) - I assume long gone now? I only ever saw 2 UK staff on board, they would check the whole train. The on-board checks were pretty cursory, and sometimes didn't happen at all - if there was no on-board check, sometimes you would get checked at Waterloo on arrival and sometimes there were just customs checks but no passport. Different times...

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Yes, I remember being checked onboard a few times and at Waterloo.