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New automatic ticket gates at Kings Cross
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DaveNewcastle
Established Member
As they are currently programmed, the barriers at Kings Cross will ONLY open if presented with a valid ticket for travel to or from Kings Cross, either arriving currently or departing in the immediate future.
Or distant future.
Or the past.
Including the distant past.
Or to/from another station.
Or an Oyster pass.
Or an invalid ticket.
Or a used ticket.
Or a cycle reservation.
Or distant future.
Or the past.
Including the distant past.
Or to/from another station.
Or an Oyster pass.
Or an invalid ticket.
Or a used ticket.
Or a cycle reservation.
WillPS
Established Member
About as useful as a G4S barrier then; any orange card-sized bit of paper will do.
Or if you have a FCC Super Off Peak Travelcard, rejected at Paddington gates from the H&C line, you can be told it is an invalid ticket as it is out of date!
That's what my wife was told and she had to prove the date on the ticket was the current day!!! So, I guess you could say these people literally don't know what day it is.
Sent from my MB525 using Tapatalk
That's what my wife was told and she had to prove the date on the ticket was the current day!!! So, I guess you could say these people literally don't know what day it is.
Sent from my MB525 using Tapatalk
Lampshade
Established Member
Then use them to hop on the train and go to Inverness
Fare evasion with intent and certain prosecution, surely? :P
From my experience, most gateline assistants show common sense if you ask them politely; if you're taking pictures and quite obviously have a camera with you then they'll let you through, or if you're seeing someone off, just don't roll up at the station expecting it like it's your God given right.
Failed Unit
Established Member
Or Manchester oxford road. Don't TOCs often do that to assist in passengers getting used to the barriers? Will test with my reservation cards!
PhilipW
Member
At Kings Cross yesterday (27 Feb) there was quite a queue of people trying to pass through the gates at Platform 0-5 after an inbound train had arrived.
I think that anyone who had travelled non-stop from Doncaster or York could reasonably ask themselves why a ticket check was not conducted on the train and therefore why the need to queue.
Perhaps even a ticket check had been conducted and therefore the need to queue even less obvious.
A system designed for the benefit of the customer. I think not.
I think that anyone who had travelled non-stop from Doncaster or York could reasonably ask themselves why a ticket check was not conducted on the train and therefore why the need to queue.
Perhaps even a ticket check had been conducted and therefore the need to queue even less obvious.
A system designed for the benefit of the customer. I think not.
Failed Unit
Established Member
But they never are for the benefit of the customer. When the 0540 Edinburgh to London starts you would hope that avoids platforms with barriers. If you can't check an entire train when the last stop was newcastle it is a bad job. Good doing the journey in 4hours and take 20 minutes to get off the station. I wonder if FCC are reaping the rewards of east coast passengers suffering!
Aictos
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Mojo, as far as I am aware the barriers are only in operation between 05.45 and 21.00 which might explain why you saw them open.
FCC is the same after 9pm, it's a free for all!
FCC is the same after 9pm, it's a free for all!
Going by those hours; presumably they have decided they only need two shifts or something to cover it.
I do wonder why they think there's going to be more problems at 05.45 than at 21.45. If you don't want to hire extra staff why not operate them 07.45 - 23.00 or something. Staff get a lie in and you catch the nighttime mob. Everyone's a winner!
I do wonder why they think there's going to be more problems at 05.45 than at 21.45. If you don't want to hire extra staff why not operate them 07.45 - 23.00 or something. Staff get a lie in and you catch the nighttime mob. Everyone's a winner!
Invincibles
Member
I wonder how many people you can catch on the early trains who had intended to return the previous day on day returns?
Also is the morning not peak?
I also think there would be more benefit for the passenger in staffing the barriers later.
But then, that assumes the barriers ar ether eof rth ebenfit of the traveling public, rather than maximising revenue for the TOC's (and the DfT/Treasury).
The fact that the barriers do not, on their own, maximise revenue at all, seems to have escaped the brains at the DfT (if there are any).
But then, that assumes the barriers ar ether eof rth ebenfit of the traveling public, rather than maximising revenue for the TOC's (and the DfT/Treasury).
The fact that the barriers do not, on their own, maximise revenue at all, seems to have escaped the brains at the DfT (if there are any).
222007
Member
The first time i used Kings Cross after the barriers went live i was surprised if im honest as i didnt know they going in. However as we were sat in the rear coach we alowed most people to get off befor us so when we got to the gateline we got through very quickly. I do however agree at peak times it could prove to cause delays.
When doing a manual ticket check the other week at peterborough i was speaking to the FCC RPI's and they themself's admitted there network is poor for revenue checks after a certain time. I know FCC dont get great publicity but i have to say there RPI's were very professional from what i observed.
Also i must add as an RPI myself i always go through the train even if that station has barriers but then i take pride in doing my job and hey thats what im there for. Its surprising how many people thinks its wrong to have there ticket checked more than once and argue the toss about showing it again
When doing a manual ticket check the other week at peterborough i was speaking to the FCC RPI's and they themself's admitted there network is poor for revenue checks after a certain time. I know FCC dont get great publicity but i have to say there RPI's were very professional from what i observed.
Also i must add as an RPI myself i always go through the train even if that station has barriers but then i take pride in doing my job and hey thats what im there for. Its surprising how many people thinks its wrong to have there ticket checked more than once and argue the toss about showing it again
PhilipW
Member
If you have the March edition of 'Modern Railways' just out, Alan Williams has written about ticket barriers in general and those at Kings Cross in particular (Page 95).
It is worth a read. Many of the points mentioned in this thread are covered. He also agrees that there is some muddled thinking going on about what barriers are expected to achieve and whether those objectives could be achieved by other means.
It is worth a read. Many of the points mentioned in this thread are covered. He also agrees that there is some muddled thinking going on about what barriers are expected to achieve and whether those objectives could be achieved by other means.
The problem is the micro management by DfT. Some year sago it became an undisputed fact in the mindset of the civil servants there that barrier swill prevent people travelling withoput a ticket, that everyone who passes through a barrier must have the correct ticket for the train they are going to use, and that they also keep undesirables off trains and stations, especially late at night.
As a result, franchises were drawn up with requirements that major inter city stations be barriered, despite the fact that they are not suitable for all stations, or the type of passenger traffic that passes through them.
When users complain about barriers, the TOC's and DfT trot out the old line about improving security and passneger comfort by reducing anti social behaviour. This leads to people believing that barriers are, or should be, all about helping the passenger. Unfortunately, this is not the case, as the (flawed) idea behind them is to maximise revenue, or rather to reduce revenue loss.
Having said that, I do think that barriers have their place, usually in suburban areas or metor type operations.
As a result, franchises were drawn up with requirements that major inter city stations be barriered, despite the fact that they are not suitable for all stations, or the type of passenger traffic that passes through them.
When users complain about barriers, the TOC's and DfT trot out the old line about improving security and passneger comfort by reducing anti social behaviour. This leads to people believing that barriers are, or should be, all about helping the passenger. Unfortunately, this is not the case, as the (flawed) idea behind them is to maximise revenue, or rather to reduce revenue loss.
Having said that, I do think that barriers have their place, usually in suburban areas or metor type operations.
Failed Unit
Established Member
I think it is criminal that the pub brigage are allowed a free ride home, if they are wasting money on barriers it would be good if they used them at the time when evasion is at the highest!
They also trot out the line to improve security, if someone is too drunk to operate the barrier we don't want them on the train! It is a simple way of filtering that person out. If they are that drunk they are more likely to soil the train! But no what do they do, let the drunks have easier access to the trains!
I do wonder why FCC put staff on gates so early. I guess they need people to open the station, unlock the waiting rooms and so on - so if they're selling tickets from 0530 then they may as well have the gates in operation, but do they need the gates working then?
Ignoring those with or without tickets, how many people are travelling full stop in the morning? The first train at Hatfield is around 04xx (can't remember exactly) and the station building isn't open then (the side gate is left open from the last train around 0204). You might have some people going in to London early for a flight, or shift workers, but not much else. The train used to be for staff only, but makes an excellent service for early flights as by the time it arrives at King's Cross it's only a few minutes to wait until the tubes start and HEX begins.
Then there's a gap until the next service of quite a bit, and I am not sure if the station is open by then. But, it would still be pretty empty if I had to guess.
Now, the further out you go the earlier people will begin travelling to get into London. But, few people are getting on between 0400-0600 from a station only just outside the M25. You get in far too early, and so I doubt that many people are going through London and back out (some, obviously, but not many). Are those people likely to fare evade if they're going in to London to get an early IC train? Maybe, but wouldn't it be less than those getting a free ride at night?
Perhaps FCC could man the gates later, from say 0630 or 0700 at the stations on the suburbs and then keep them open until 2200 or 2300 (but I'd be thinking of 0000 as it would catch those coming back from the pubs).
At KGX and FPK, where people will begin most of the journeys home at night, they should at least have both of those stations with operational gates from the first train and until the last train has departed.
If you assume everyone will simply buy a ticket to the next stop, you make sure that you frequently have revenue officers on these late trains instead of having them disappear too - bar a few occasions where they seem to have stings - and you punish people accordingly.
Gates can't work on their own. Revenue officers can't operate without gates. For most of the day, FCC has a decent set up but they let it all go by deciding to open the gates at between 2000 and 2100. Sometimes even earlier on a Friday night at Hatfield (presumably due to staff shortages) where the whole building is closed early, meaning no gates and no open ticket office: a good way to encourage people to just go out on Friday night without a ticket at all. FCC won't even manage to restock the TVMs with ticket stock all the time, so I've seen a Friday night (at 1930) where the station is closed and both outdoor TVMs are 'OUT OF SERVICE'!!
Ignoring those with or without tickets, how many people are travelling full stop in the morning? The first train at Hatfield is around 04xx (can't remember exactly) and the station building isn't open then (the side gate is left open from the last train around 0204). You might have some people going in to London early for a flight, or shift workers, but not much else. The train used to be for staff only, but makes an excellent service for early flights as by the time it arrives at King's Cross it's only a few minutes to wait until the tubes start and HEX begins.
Then there's a gap until the next service of quite a bit, and I am not sure if the station is open by then. But, it would still be pretty empty if I had to guess.
Now, the further out you go the earlier people will begin travelling to get into London. But, few people are getting on between 0400-0600 from a station only just outside the M25. You get in far too early, and so I doubt that many people are going through London and back out (some, obviously, but not many). Are those people likely to fare evade if they're going in to London to get an early IC train? Maybe, but wouldn't it be less than those getting a free ride at night?
Perhaps FCC could man the gates later, from say 0630 or 0700 at the stations on the suburbs and then keep them open until 2200 or 2300 (but I'd be thinking of 0000 as it would catch those coming back from the pubs).
At KGX and FPK, where people will begin most of the journeys home at night, they should at least have both of those stations with operational gates from the first train and until the last train has departed.
If you assume everyone will simply buy a ticket to the next stop, you make sure that you frequently have revenue officers on these late trains instead of having them disappear too - bar a few occasions where they seem to have stings - and you punish people accordingly.
Gates can't work on their own. Revenue officers can't operate without gates. For most of the day, FCC has a decent set up but they let it all go by deciding to open the gates at between 2000 and 2100. Sometimes even earlier on a Friday night at Hatfield (presumably due to staff shortages) where the whole building is closed early, meaning no gates and no open ticket office: a good way to encourage people to just go out on Friday night without a ticket at all. FCC won't even manage to restock the TVMs with ticket stock all the time, so I've seen a Friday night (at 1930) where the station is closed and both outdoor TVMs are 'OUT OF SERVICE'!!
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Failed Unit
Established Member
Travelled from Edinburgh - London today.
Ticket checks on train after Edinburgh, Newcastle and York but not Peterborough (no prizes for guessing which train i was on)
Got through the gates using Saturdays CHFAM Linlithgow - Edinburgh service.
The gates were not causing too many problems someone next to me had their ticket rejected but god knows how when I passed through with a totally invalid ticket.
Two questions for Ms Holt.
1. Why have the gates when they let anything through anyway.
2. Does you company not care that someone with a standard class FCC only ticket could have travelled in first class this evening with you company getting no revenue from it?
I will try the same ticket heading north to see if it has invalidated it.
Ticket checks on train after Edinburgh, Newcastle and York but not Peterborough (no prizes for guessing which train i was on)
Got through the gates using Saturdays CHFAM Linlithgow - Edinburgh service.
The gates were not causing too many problems someone next to me had their ticket rejected but god knows how when I passed through with a totally invalid ticket.
Two questions for Ms Holt.
1. Why have the gates when they let anything through anyway.
2. Does you company not care that someone with a standard class FCC only ticket could have travelled in first class this evening with you company getting no revenue from it?
I will try the same ticket heading north to see if it has invalidated it.
Well, arriving yesterday from EDB I tried my Oyster card (with Z1-3 travelcard) and it happily opened the gates. My ticket not having been checked on board, I could have travelled for free. The original guard (who made several announcements before departure telling people to check they weren't on incorrect advance tickets, or XC tickets) had not made it to coach G before the crew change at Newcastle. I went to the buffet twice in that timespan and each time the guard was writing out UPFNs in coach H!
The guard who got on at Newcastle only asked for tickets from Newcastle/Doncaster/York/etc. every second stop or so.
The guard who got on at Newcastle only asked for tickets from Newcastle/Doncaster/York/etc. every second stop or so.
blacknight
Member
Not only seat reservations but also bike reservations:roll
o for a short time you can go to ticket office & ask to reserve a bike for a train, never yet been asked to produce a bike & you have just got yourself a free gate pass
Not only seat reservations but also bike reservations:roll
But not really worth doing as out-of-date tickets and tickets for other stations (and oystercards) open the gates too. I don't recommend Oyster if you don't have a Travelcard covering Zone 1.
The odds are you already have a free gate pass.
I don't see the point in getting people used to using gates by allowing non-valid tickets to work.
That is only going to cause even more confusion when people have just got used to using the wrong ticket portion in the gates - and figured they were working (it's not as if they're going to think they've got a trial/bedding in period).
I saw someone from Cubic working at King's Cross platforms 9-11 a couple of weeks ago, and they've been working at many FCC stations (which, straight after, is when my season ticket stops working between the origin and destination). I wonder what they're doing to the software?
They'd be better off handing out leaflets (or having them on the trains) instead of just having posters, to explain how the gates work and what ticket you need to use. If nothing else, people can read this during their journey to kill some time and perhaps get more of an understanding. Only EC and other IC services would need such a leaflet, as (most) FCC users will obviously be fully aware. Even the tourists taking the 'Cambridge Cruiser' for a day trip probably used the gates at the Underground station, and they won't have seat reservations.
That is only going to cause even more confusion when people have just got used to using the wrong ticket portion in the gates - and figured they were working (it's not as if they're going to think they've got a trial/bedding in period).
I saw someone from Cubic working at King's Cross platforms 9-11 a couple of weeks ago, and they've been working at many FCC stations (which, straight after, is when my season ticket stops working between the origin and destination). I wonder what they're doing to the software?
They'd be better off handing out leaflets (or having them on the trains) instead of just having posters, to explain how the gates work and what ticket you need to use. If nothing else, people can read this during their journey to kill some time and perhaps get more of an understanding. Only EC and other IC services would need such a leaflet, as (most) FCC users will obviously be fully aware. Even the tourists taking the 'Cambridge Cruiser' for a day trip probably used the gates at the Underground station, and they won't have seat reservations.
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