Network Southeast to Birmingham

[Blackfriars]

I haven't found any satisfactory answers online and was wondering if someone more knowledgeable than me could clear this up.

Did NSE ever reach Birmingham during its existence, via Chiltern or WCML? During which dates? And was this in cooperation with Regional Railways or not? Did they possibly venture further north still?

Any answers would be appreciated!! Thanks!!

 

[Russel]

I'm sure I remember seeing NSE MK1 or MK2s at New Street, though they could have simply been handed down / borrowed by Regional Railways or Intercity...

 

[JonathanH]

Did NSE ever reach Birmingham during its existence, via Chiltern or WCML? During which dates? And was this in cooperation with Regional Railways or not? Did they possibly venture further north still?

Via Worcester (briefly) in cooperation with Regional Railways - see https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-direct-service-to-birmingham.152207/page-2#post-3093712

Via the Chiltern Line as extension of NSE services - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/chiltern-before-the-168s.270104/#post-6832229

Via Northampton - https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-more-than-one-br-sector.206102/#post-4651634

However, this doesn't mean that NSE incorporated Birmingham.

 

[778]

Yes, NSE ran a Euston - New Street service once every hour using 321s. I don't think it called at the local stations between Coventry and New Street.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Chiltern Line services started running beyond Banbury to Birmingham in 1993, initially every two hours but increasing to hourly in 1994. Until the 168s were ordered and introduced post-privatisation, these services were operated by Class 165s.

 

[pdeaves]

One off or regular, I don't know, but I have photos of NSE liveried 50002 at Manchester Piccadilly in 1987 (probably 31 July). Maybe someone else can fill in more details.

 

[JonathanH]

One off or regular, I don't know, but I have photos of NSE liveried 50002 at Manchester Piccadilly in 1987 (probably 31 July). Maybe someone else can fill in more details.

We're class 50s broadly still 'common user', or at least easily shared as necessary, at that point?

 

[Cheshire Scot]

One off or regular, I don't know, but I have photos of NSE liveried 50002 at Manchester Piccadilly in 1987 (probably 31 July). Maybe someone else can fill in more details.

Class 50s used to occasionally appear at Manchester Piccadilly around that time on services from Birmingham or beyond so I would guess this may fit for this sighting, perhaps a spot hire substituting for a loco from the usual sub sector?

 

[pdeaves]

Further detail; the 50 in Manchester also has NSE mark 1 carriages behind it (not enough of the train in the picture to see what the whole train is like).

 

[eldomtom2]

Having spent £10 on a May 1991 timetable scan I can confirm that there was a roughly hourly NSE service between Euston and Birmingham.

 

[gg1]

There were also summer Saturday services from Euston to Aberystwyth in the late 80s which utilised NSE mk1 LHCS. On weekdays the same stock was used for Euston to Northampton commuter services.

 

[Taunton]

There were also summer Saturday services from Euston to Aberystwyth in the late 80s which utilised NSE mk1 LHCS. On weekdays the same stock was used for Euston to Northampton commuter services.

The Mk1 stock for Euston-Northampton commuter services was actually maintained at Liverpool Edge Hill. On Saturday early mornings it went ecs to Euston, then ran a service to Liverpool, and then had 24 hours for heavy cleaning and servicing. It ran a Sunday evening service back from Liverpool to Euston, then went back overnight to Northampton to restart the week, this heavier work not being available at the Northampton sidings. The several Northampton sets did this on a cyclic basis, one every weekend, so each about once a month, and they had Edge Hill allocation stickers. I used to be a regular on the Sunday evening return, always impressively clean, polished, and well-presented. At this time time they were still in blue/grey livery, with NSE flashes. Discussed here in the past, others contributed details of the diagrams.

 

[Sprinter107]

Round about 1992,1993 time, the first local all stns train from Wolverhampton to Birmingham which started from the south end bay was a NSE class 321. It carried on past Birmingham as a semi fast train to Northampton and Euston. I used to catch it as a novelty.

 

[Snow1964]

When Network SouthEast started, almost 40 years ago, there were 4 extra class 312s numbered 201-204 which generally worked services in Rugby- Birmingham-Wolverhampton corridor.

These Birmingham batch subsequently moved to East London, joining other 312s working for Network Southeast (eventually working out of Fenchurch Street renumbered 727-730 in the old Anglia EMU number sequence that got as far as unit 861 on a 315

The similar class 310 which worked services to Euston, were replaced by class 317s as interim, then new 321s arrived. The replacements 321s (48 units 401-448) were in Network SouthEast Colours, but did work to Birmingham

 

[contrex]

I'm sure I remember seeing NSE MK1 or MK2s at New Street, though they could have simply been handed down / borrowed by Regional Railways or Intercity...

I used to regularly see blue-and-grey Mark 1s with NSE flashes added, being hauled by a Class 33 up Filton Bank in Bristol on the way from Portsmouth to Cardiff.

 

[317362]

As I recall, north of Northampton the 321s on Euston-Birmingham services were technically operated for/on behalf of Regional Railways, and Birmingham NS was outside Network boundary.

 

[Russel]

Unrelated to NSE Mk2s, but this thread has just brought back memories of Regional Rail Mk2 compartment stock at New Street and happy childhood memories of trips to Wales on them from New Street, though I can't remember where in Wales we were going, presumably somewhere on the North Wales Coast...

 

[gaillark]

There was also once a day service from Birmingham New Street to London Paddington via High Wycombe loco hauled service. It also had a buffet car and NSE branded window destination labels plastered on the doors.
Arrived Paddington around 0930 and departed around 1730 ish.
(Also at this time there were several direct InterCity services between New Street and Paddington via Reading).

 

[warwickshire]

Chiltern Line services started running beyond Banbury to Birmingham in 1993, initially every two hours but increasing to hourly in 1994. Until the 168s were ordered and introduced post-privatisation, these services were operated by Class 165s.

Yes, it was a shared service between, the Network South East Chiltern division and The Regional Railways division.

Very occasionaly to start with in May 1993, if they was short of a 165, a 150 would work on the Northern Half of the route covering for a 150, as far as Bicester North, but that was very occasional. Worked by Leamington spa Regional Railways crew.
And passengers had to change trains, from a 150 to a 165 and vice versa in the station.

Soon after in 1994, when it was Hourly, Leamington Spa Guards and Drivers worked to Banbury, and Aylesbury and London Marylebone drivers worked driver only Banbury to London Marleybone.

However throughout from 1993, Banbury to London was Driver only anyway.

Also around 1994, saw through services London Paddington to Stratford upon Avon 165 but Thames division as well.

More notably Sundays was more interesting, because there was two turbo services from London Paddington to Birmingham New Street as a Network South East service.

Giving various traincrew mileage jobs as known to them in the good old British rail days.

 

[The exile]

However, this doesn't mean that NSE incorporated Birmingham.

An important distinction here between “services operated by the L&SE sector” and “area covered by public-facing NSE conditions” (complicated by the “other sectors using NSE resources on Summer Saturdays - eg Euston - Pwllheli). Birmingham saw the former but was not in the latter (as did eg Westbury at peak times).

 

[Statto]

Yes, NSE ran a Euston - New Street service once every hour using 321s. I don't think it called at the local stations between Coventry and New Street.

Think it was Coventry, Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street only, i remember the stopper being Coventry - Wolverhampton via New Street, it was quite weird seeing 321s in NSE livery well outside the NSE area.

 

[Sprinter107]

As i said earlier, I used to catch the first local from Wolverhampton which was a class 321, calling all stations to New Street, but looking at the 1993 timetable, it appears the next local was also a 321, but started from Stafford. Both stopped all stations onwards to Coventry before carrying onto Rugby, Northampton and Euston. There was a late night 321 that did all stations to Coventry too. (Denoted by a 1 in the column), the usual emus didn't convey 1st by that time.

 

[nw1]

Class 50s used to occasionally appear at Manchester Piccadilly around that time on services from Birmingham or beyond so I would guess this may fit for this sighting, perhaps a spot hire substituting for a loco from the usual sub sector?

I'd guess it was in lieu of a 47. Later in the 80s, 47s used to work all the way through to Manchester on some services from the Reading route, while up to the mid-80s, loco changes in Birmingham were the norm.

 

[150219]

As i said earlier, I used to catch the first local from Wolverhampton which was a class 321, calling all stations to New Street, but looking at the 1993 timetable, it appears the next local was also a 321, but started from Stafford. Both stopped all stations onwards to Coventry before carrying onto Rugby, Northampton and Euston. There was a late night 321 that did all stations to Coventry too. (Denoted by a 1 in the column), the usual emus didn't convey 1st by that time.

I have a photo from possibly 1993 or 1994 of an NSE liveried 321 at Stafford working an unspecified working.

 

[Sprinter107]

I have a photo from possibly 1993 or 1994 of an NSE liveried 321 at Stafford working an unspecified working.

That must be that morning working then. 06 31 off Stafford, calling Penkridge, then all stations to Northampton and onwards to Euston. Showing route code 56 at the top of the column.

 

[Helvellyn]

As i said earlier, I used to catch the first local from Wolverhampton which was a class 321, calling all stations to New Street, but looking at the 1993 timetable, it appears the next local was also a 321, but started from Stafford. Both stopped all stations onwards to Coventry before carrying onto Rugby, Northampton and Euston. There was a late night 321 that did all stations to Coventry too. (Denoted by a 1 in the column), the usual emus didn't convey 1st by that time.

Probably a pair of units stabled overnight at Soho, so rather than work them ECS to New Street they were worked ECS to Wolves/Stafford and used in service to New Street with RR crews to provide extra early morning capacity into Birmingham (one of many examples of BR running services in marginal time).

 

[Sprinter107]

Probably a pair of units stabled overnight at Soho, so rather than work them ECS to New Street they were worked ECS to Wolves/Stafford and used in service to New Street with RR crews to provide extra early morning capacity into Birmingham (one of many examples of BR running services in marginal time).

I think that must've been it, because there doesn't appear to be any return workings

 

[nw1]

I think that must've been it, because there doesn't appear to be any return workings

That was what was so great about BR (and to be fair, a hypothetical privatised equivalent of BR).

Being one organisation, a sector could "borrow" another sector's units and locos where it made sense for operational reasons. Rather than RR having to have a couple of extra units to cover these morning workings, they use NSE's 321s because they're not needed for their own purposes at that time in the morning. Completely sensible, and logical.

I hope we see this kind of thing come back with GBR.

 

[JonathanH]

I hope we see this kind of thing come back with GBR.

It still happens right now in a slightly different form, but it should also be noted that rolling stock is more specific to certain routes than it was in the past.

 

[Sprinter107]

That was what was so great about BR (and to be fair, a hypothetical privatised equivalent of BR).

Being one organisation, a sector could "borrow" another sector's units and locos where it made sense for operational reasons. Rather than RR having to have a couple of extra units to cover these morning workings, they use NSE's 321s because they're not needed for their own purposes at that time in the morning. Completely sensible, and logical.

I hope we see this kind of thing come back with GBR.

Id definitely like to see this flexibility return.