Network Rail's Linear Scrap Yard

[GRALISTAIR]

I wonder how the old ganger at Taunton managed long ago.

Eeeee when I were a lad - used to have to get up at 6 o'clock int morning and lick roorrrd cleen wit tung --

All seriousness, in the late 60s and early 70s railwaymen used to deliberately set fire to the embankment and do controlled burns. Not allowed now - times have changed. I am sure the old ganger at Taunton would behave different - Health and Safety etc has improved and rightly so in my opinion.

 

[Hellzapoppin]

I think you've answered your own question, when I first joined BR each area had its own length gang who were responsible for their own patch. In Taunton you most likely had a P way gang, definitely an S&T gang, S&T techs etc and that would have been the same all along the main line. Sadly, those days are gone and the 'orange army' which usually consists of half a dozen guys in van covers the whole area now and can't do everything.

 

[dviner]

And he never had an injury as long as I knew them.

I'm sure he also had a lot of stories that contained "... another second and...", "...if it wasn't for...", "... if it had been a hair's breadth closer ..." and other similar near miss/brown trouser moments.

 

[Deepgreen]

Eeeee when I were a lad - used to have to get up at 6 o'clock int morning and lick roorrrd cleen wit tung --

All seriousness, in the late 60s and early 70s railwaymen used to deliberately set fire to the embankment and do controlled burns. Not allowed now - times have changed. I am sure the old ganger at Taunton would behave different - Health and Safety etc has improved and rightly so in my opinion.

That was simply continiung the process of burning that occured frequently from steam engines' sparks/embers, etc., igniting lineside areas. In times before the vast amount of electrical cabling we have today this caused far less of a problem.

 

[Taunton]

That was simply continiung the process of burning that occured frequently from steam engines' sparks/embers, etc., igniting lineside areas. In times before the vast amount of electrical cabling we have today this caused far less of a problem.

Not really correct, the PW gang, who were also responsible for the landscaping up to the boundary fence, kept the grass short and shrubs/bushes that might dry out by late summer were pretty much excluded. There were few lineside fires inside the boundary fence - most of those that did happen were in arable crops immediately beyond the fence.

The immediate lineside did contain the point rodding and signal pull wires, right out as far as the distant, plus the wooden telegraph poles holding up the box-to-box communication.

Any Western Region PW gang (but particularly those on the Minehead branch once the 82xxx were allocated there) would have told you that the BR Standard types were far more of a fire-chucker than anything that came out of Swindon. Principal culprit was the "self cleaning smokebox", a design to force ash residue up and out through the chimney rather than accumulating in the box. Nobody seemed to realise it would take hot cinders out as well. This led to some considerable arguments between the CME and the CCE.

 

[HowardGWR]

Any Western Region PW gang (but particularly those on the Minehead branch once the 82xxx were allocated there) would have told you that the BR Standard types were far more of a fire-chucker than anything that came out of Swindon. Principal culprit was the "self cleaning smokebox", a design to force ash residue up and out through the chimney rather than accumulating in the box. Nobody seemed to realise it would take hot cinders out as well. This led to some considerable arguments between the CME and the CCE.

According to me, the 82xxx did come out of Swindon.

 

[AndrewNewens]

The state of the network is nothing short of a disgrace in many places. Perhaps one way to change things is to make Network Rail know that the mess is offensive and quite frankly unacceptable.

So, let's all bombard NR with the worst examples and see if it makes a difference. I think this link may be appropriate.

https://communications-crm.custhelp.com/

 

[DarloRich]

edit - not worth the effort other than to say criticism is all well and good ( and very easy) but solutions, even from known experts such as this board, seem thin on the gorund

 

[dviner]

edit - not worth the effort other than to say criticism is all well and good ( and very easy) but solutions, even from known experts such as this board, seem thin on the gorund

Ah, but the solutions are simple - "just go and clear it up". I mean, removing a discarded track panel could easily be done with a handful of people on community service. Make them bring their own gloves and maybe a crowbar, and they'd soon sort it out. Also, because they'd not be actual employees, what would be the point of sorting out a Green Zone...

 

[Trog]

Ah, but the solutions are simple - "just go and clear it up". I mean, removing a discarded track panel could easily be done with a handful of people on community service. Make them bring their own gloves and maybe a crowbar, and they'd soon sort it out. Also, because they'd not be actual employees, what would be the point of sorting out a Green Zone...

Handful? It took twenty men to lift a 60'-0" rail onto a wagon, and that was back in the days when H&S was a joy still to come.

 

[mcmad]

Ah, but the solutions are simple - "just go and clear it up". I mean, removing a discarded track panel could easily be done with a handful of people on community service. Make them bring their own gloves and maybe a crowbar, and they'd soon sort it out. Also, because they'd not be actual employees, what would be the point of sorting out a Green Zone...

Wow :roll: ....

such insightful insight into the problems and solutions.

As if Network Rail would get prosecuted for letting a bunch of untrained people wander about the network getting run down by trains and trapped under sections of rail

words fail me.

 

[DarloRich]

Wow :roll: ....

such insightful insight into the problems and solutions.

As if Network Rail would get prosecuted for letting a bunch of untrained people wander about the network getting run down by trains and trapped under sections of rail

words fail me.

i think that might be a joke.............................................................

 

[Marklund]

edit - not worth the effort other than to say criticism is all well and good ( and very easy) but solutions, even from known experts such as this board, seem thin on the gorund

The answer is easy, but it involves paying people to clear it up, which the company doesn't want to do.
It did away with people who did that under Phase 2b/c, and the PLPR train isn't stopping to pick up litter :roll:

 

[Carntyne]

They are clearing up the scrap. It's not possible to clear the whole network within the fortnight some people seem to expect it to be done.

If I caught it right at a recent business brief, it was confirmed that tens of thousands of tonnes of scrap have been lifted in Scotland alone in the last year or so.

 

[Marklund]

Interesting, and welcome to see a start, but it's the very tip of the iceberg.
I'd bet the more OPEX becomes an even dirtier word, the less that this will happen.

 

[AndrewNewens]

edit - not worth the effort other than to say criticism is all well and good ( and very easy) but solutions, even from known experts such as this board, seem thin on the gorund

All organizations, particularly public bodies like Network Rail, appear terrified of external criticism, so I think it's perhaps premature to say a concerted campaign from hundreds, or even thousands of people from this forum (and elsewhere) would be a wasted effort.

Easy to criticize, and not easy to sort out I agree. But I wonder how many complaints NR actually receive about the mess alongside so much of their trackside. Not many I'd say.

Does anyone know Mark Carne's email address? If he was copied into every email to NR detailing particular blackspots something might start to happen?

 

[Flying Phil]

Just a quick word of "Thanks" to NR and the various TOCs etc. Recently I have been to the Isle of Wight by car and returned by rail three times. The trains/underground and overground were all on time, clean inside and out and all the staff were polite and helpful. There has obviously been a lot of tree felling - and clearing along many parts of the route, yes, there was some line-side mess but it was not too bad and given all the constraints mentioned in this thread I was very impressed by my experience. (PS it was also the cheapest cost per mile and most relaxing part of my journey!)

 

[dviner]

i think that might be a joke.............................................................

We really do need some proper /sarcasm tags.

 

[DarloRich]

All organizations, particularly public bodies like Network Rail, appear terrified of external criticism, so I think it's perhaps premature to say a concerted campaign from hundreds, or even thousands of people from this forum (and elsewhere) would be a wasted effort.

Easy to criticize, and not easy to sort out I agree. But I wonder how many complaints NR actually receive about the mess alongside so much of their trackside. Not many I'd say.

Does anyone know Mark Carne's email address? If he was copied into every email to NR detailing particular blackspots something might start to happen?

You would have more luck contacting your MP and getting them to whine on about the mess. It will still take ages to get things sorted out, simply because of access constraints, which is something most seem to miss.

 

[D Foster]

Not really correct, the PW gang, who were also responsible for the landscaping up to the boundary fence, kept the grass short and shrubs/bushes that might dry out by late summer were pretty much excluded. There were few lineside fires inside the boundary fence - most of those that did happen were in arable crops immediately beyond the fence.

The immediate lineside did contain the point rodding and signal pull wires, right out as far as the distant, plus the wooden telegraph poles holding up the box-to-box communication.

Any Western Region PW gang (but particularly those on the Minehead branch once the 82xxx were allocated there) would have told you that the BR Standard types were far more of a fire-chucker than anything that came out of Swindon. Principal culprit was the "self cleaning smokebox", a design to force ash residue up and out through the chimney rather than accumulating in the box. Nobody seemed to realise it would take hot cinders out as well. This led to some considerable arguments between the CME and the CCE.

Somewhere I have an LMS instruction booklet for gangers that specifies that the grass (and everything else) is to be kept mown right down - probably with scythes - for ten feet from the nearest rail at the track side and ten feet from the boundary at the outer edge. This was specifically to protect both point rod runs with signal wire runs and to protect neighbouring property. Both ten-foots would have acted as fire breaks while providing very little fuel for any sparks that did land in them. Anywhere in between was not to be burnt unless essential - but - allowed to grow as a crop that could be used as hay/fodder which would be harvested and gathered according to a local plan.

The big difference between then and now was, of course, that the local gangs had "ownership" and responsibility for their local patches. They also had both pride in their territories and the risk of being sacked if they didn't keep the job up to standard.
When the job is measured by accountants in offices they don't count pride, job satisfaction and appearances.

 

[DarloRich]

Somewhere I have an LMS instruction booklet for gangers that specifies that the grass (and everything else) is to be kept mown right down - probably with scythes - for ten feet from the nearest rail at the track side and ten feet from the boundary at the outer edge. This was specifically to protect both point rod runs with signal wire runs and to protect neighbouring property. Both ten-foots would have acted as fire breaks while providing very little fuel for any sparks that did land in them. Anywhere in between was not to be burnt unless essential - but - allowed to grow as a crop that could be used as hay/fodder which would be harvested and gathered according to a local plan.

The big difference between then and now was, of course, that the local gangs had "ownership" and responsibility for their local patches. They also had both pride in their territories and the risk of being sacked if they didn't keep the job up to standard.
When the job is measured by accountants in offices they don't count pride, job satisfaction and appearances.

Whilst I am sure you are, of course, right I would point out one glaringly obvious point you have missed. Those gangs don't exist and the numbers working on the track have contracted massively since 1725 or whenever. But yeah, its the accountants.

PS nor sadly would the TOCs agree to the kind of access that would be required these days to undertake much of this work

 

[HSTEd]

However trackside fires are a rarity now.
Is it really worth keeping it cut back?
Even leaving aside that railway lines have become important linear nature reserves, it seems like pointless-makework.

 

[alxndr]

However trackside fires are a rarity now.
Is it really worth keeping it cut back?
Even leaving aside that railway lines have become important linear nature reserves, it seems like pointless-makework.

For the purposes of having a safe cess, yes.

 

[NSEFAN]

For the purposes of having a safe cess, yes.

Prevention of leaf mulch and slime building up is also quite important.

 

[Taunton]

Is it really worth keeping it cut back?

Surely it is recognised that a significant component of the autumn leaf fall problem is the extent to which trackside landscaping has been allowed to go wild, long term, since the end of steam locomotives 50 years ago, which by their nature required fire prevention as described above. Over time, grass became long grass and weeds, then shrubs and saplings took root, and now broad-leaf trees are well established and mature. It's something that the old-time gangers, who some above seem to despise for their professionalism, notwithstanding their low pay or that they had left school aged 15, understood only too well.

 

[HSTEd]

Surely it is recognised that a significant component of the autumn leaf fall problem is the extent to which trackside landscaping has been allowed to go wild, long term, since the end of steam locomotives 50 years ago, which by their nature required fire prevention as described above. Over time, grass became long grass and weeds, then shrubs and saplings took root, and now broad-leaf trees are well established and mature. It's something that the old-time gangers, who some above seem to despise for their professionalism, notwithstanding their low pay or that they had left school aged 15, understood only too well.

And despite it being enormously overgrown as it is, the railway still manages, somehow, to run something that resembles an actual timetable in leaf fall season.

I would imagine distributed traction has helped considerably there, after all multiple units tend to be more resilient in the face of degraded conditions.
We also have to consider the opinion of people living near railway lines - whilst you may go on about how the railway has rights to do all these things, it is not wise to always take up all of your rights. After all the railway only survives become of massive support from the public purse, if you make enemies in the electorate you may eventually find yourself in a position where the taps are no longer turned full on.

For the purposes of having a safe cess, yes.

If your only concern is having a cess in which to take shelter, chopping everything back like a lawn ten feet from every rail is probably excessive. Especially considering the amount of work undertaken trackside with trains running is dropping every year on the back of other health and safety concerns.

 

[Hellzapoppin]

But that's the whole point, if we had a clear cess NR staff would be able to access the equipment they maintain easier and safer, a lot of scrap could be "walked" off site and they wouldn't have to rely on difficult to get possessions. The reason less work is being done is because the cess's are virtually non existent and its unsafe to get to site without possessions or blocks. If I was a line side neighbour I'd rather see a lawn than scrap piled up everywhere, whilst trees look nice they can cause problems with the structure of the railways.

 

[Trog]

If your only concern is having a cess in which to take shelter, chopping everything back like a lawn ten feet from every rail is probably excessive. Especially considering the amount of work undertaken trackside with trains running is dropping every year on the back of other health and safety concerns.

The big risk from an over grown lineside is when it starts to block lines of sight. So drivers can not see the signals from as far away as they otherwise could, and staff on track can not see the trains coming.

 

[alxndr]

If your only concern is having a cess in which to take shelter, chopping everything back like a lawn ten feet from every rail is probably excessive. Especially considering the amount of work undertaken trackside with trains running is dropping every year on the back of other health and safety concerns.

It's not the only issue, but it's the one that I understand and get affected by the most. I'll let others talk for things that I don't know about, such as traction. Perhaps a 10ft lawn everywhere is excessive these days, but a reasonable area of clear ground in a position of safety would be welcomed, and in my opinion appropriate. Yes, the railway manages to run without it, but if it can be approved should it not be? Can people not think, "This is naff, this isn't progress, we've taken a step backwards here."

Even when working with line blockages, there needs to be somewhere for people and tools to go when handing back the line. If working in the cess, you again need space. In terms of just getting to site, does it not make sense that this can be done separated, rather than having to take a line blockage because the underfoot conditions/overhanging trees make the cess unsuitable to walk in? It would certainly be quicker.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I would imagine distributed traction has helped considerably there, after all multiple units tend to be more resilient in the face of degraded conditions.

We also have to consider the opinion of people living near railway lines - whilst you may go on about how the railway has rights to do all these things, it is not wise to always take up all of your rights. After all the railway only survives become of massive support from the public purse, if you make enemies in the electorate you may eventually find yourself in a position where the taps are no longer turned full on.

Multiple units with distributed drive can cope better with degraded rail conditions, but it doesn't matter if it's a locomotive or a unit when it comes to stopping.

The opinion of people near railway lines changes more often than the weather - people want lovely views, then they want trees, then they want nice fencing, then they want the lovely views again. We can't please all of the people all of the time, but we can try to please some of the people, some of the time.

For every person who complains about trees being cut down, there will be a neighbour who thinks it brightens their garden or gives them a view they've not seen in years, whilst some others will appreciate fewer leaves blowing into their drive or pond.

What always helps is when things like trees are cut down to improve reliability, and we can actually demonstrate that, or when there are improvements, so residents see a new footbridge with a ramp, a longer platform, better lighting, a bridge without a weight restriction and a wider pavement, or in many cases now, they see OLE and new trains, and they can go 'oh - that's why Network Rail did that, I now get a seat on the train in the morning and don't have a 45 minute wait to come home at night'.