Network Rail's Linear Scrap Yard

[Bald Rick]

Nice posts.

So lets say 50 tons of wastage/scrap/unused material is left behind because of a delay. The foreman or person in charge is PERFECTLY aware that it is being left.

Does that go into a report? Does he care? Does a new scheduled cleanup get put on a roster?

Yes it is all reported and rescheduled for collection.

It is, however, a rare job where there are 50 tonnes of material left behind. its rare that there is more than a couple tonnes.

 

[richieb1971]

Yes it is all reported and rescheduled for collection.

It is, however, a rare job where there are 50 tonnes of material left behind. its rare that there is more than a couple tonnes.

The youtube posted earlier was my own where layers of unused or old track was piled up and thrown in the ditch. Was working on the basis of how much weight that was going to be. I am pretty sure the Marston Vale line still has quite a bit of track laying about.

In 2015 I went to Kempston and filmed 6h10 and there was a bit of track thrown in public view -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGKhbcevedo - 8mins 40sec.


That piece of track looks like it was hoisted there by a crane and dumped on purpose.

I noticed on the MML there are literally miles of rails the trains go over that are just positioned there. Since they are lined up in such a way as they are it seems like its there for a purpose. Are those rails old rails being replaced by new rails and the old rails are positioned in the middle of the track?

 

[najaB]

I noticed on the MML there are literally miles of rails the trains go over that are just positioned there. Since they are lined up in such a way as they are it seems like its there for a purpose. Are those rails old rails being replaced by new rails and the old rails are positioned in the middle of the track?

If you mean rails lying in the four-foot (the space between the running rails) then yes, that is either rail that has been pre-positioned for upcoming replacement work, or the old rail waiting for collection afterwards.

 

[jbqfc]

here in Crawley the Brighton road level crossing has some nice new barriers i also noticed that they have had a tidy up removed some undergrowth and a set of old damaged barriers then have been there for a couple of years sdo it can be done

 

[IKBrunel]

I'm picking up on an environmental agenda with some of the posts in this thread, but I think there's a gap between the general perception of the impact of the problem and its actual impact.

Most lineside graffiti and visible railway associated waste (steel, concrete, grinder discs, pandrel shoes(?), rolls of geotextile, sleepers) are relatively environmentally benign.

I'd personally be more concerned about leaks of fuel & oil due to hose failures, toilet contents and especially the type and quantity of herbicides used to control vegetation, especially near watercourses or other environmentally sensitive areas. It's these types of pollution which have the greatest contribution to a general decline in area of habitats and numbers of species. A decline which is currently getting worse rather than better. I don't think the rail industry is the worst offender by any means, I just think the litter & graffiti concerns should be put in perspective.

 

[dviner]

here in Crawley the Brighton road level crossing has some nice new barriers i also noticed that they have had a tidy up removed some undergrowth and a set of old damaged barriers then have been there for a couple of years sdo it can be done

Probably relatively easy to do at a level crossing - I mean, you've got a nice handy road there - a ready-made access point. Also, cut undergrowth and damaged barriers can probably be moved easily by hand.

It's not like it was a couple of track panels in the middle of nowhere...

 

[richieb1971]

North of Bedford there is a lot of trees and bushes growing between the fast and slow lines. Sometimes I look around and its over grown and sometimes its cut down. How is this done?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Probably relatively easy to do at a level crossing - I mean, you've got a nice handy road there - a ready-made access point. Also, cut undergrowth and damaged barriers can probably be moved easily by hand.

It's not like it was a couple of track panels in the middle of nowhere...

There are crossings which have a spare set of barriers kept on site, to enable damage to be repaired very quickly.

 

[dviner]

There are crossings which have a spare set of barriers kept on site, to enable damage to be repaired very quickly.

Just as long as people don't think the spares have just been thrown there...

It's a sensible solution if the location is remote, it's barriers are markedly different to others in the area, they are frequently damaged, or they are ridiculously cumbersome to move.

If it only takes 10 minutes to get the spares from the depot to the site, it would be a bit more difficult to justify...

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Just as long as people don't think the spares have just been thrown there...

It's a sensible solution if the location is remote, it's barriers are markedly different to others in the area, they are frequently damaged, or they are ridiculously cumbersome to move.

If it only takes 10 minutes to get the spares from the depot to the site, it would be a bit more difficult to justify...

Absolutely.

 

[Deepgreen]

I'm picking up on an environmental agenda with some of the posts in this thread, but I think there's a gap between the general perception of the impact of the problem and its actual impact.

Most lineside graffiti and visible railway associated waste (steel, concrete, grinder discs, pandrel shoes(?), rolls of geotextile, sleepers) are relatively environmentally benign.

I'd personally be more concerned about leaks of fuel & oil due to hose failures, toilet contents and especially the type and quantity of herbicides used to control vegetation, especially near watercourses or other environmentally sensitive areas. It's these types of pollution which have the greatest contribution to a general decline in area of habitats and numbers of species. A decline which is currently getting worse rather than better. I don't think the rail industry is the worst offender by any means, I just think the litter & graffiti concerns should be put in perspective.

Environmental issues don't just mean physical pollution - they include visual clutter, tidiness, waste, failure to recycle vast amounts of material and safety, for example.

 

[IKBrunel]

Environmental issues don't just mean physical pollution - they include visual clutter, tidiness, waste, failure to recycle vast amounts of material and safety, for example.

If waste doesn't cause any harm to any ecosystem, is it truly an environmental issue? or just a human aesthetic consideration based on our cultural value systems?

An old friend of mine used to trade with indigenous tribes in South America, when they went to big cities they saw litter everywhere which they perceived as a sign of affluence, so when they went back to their villages they'd leave plastic bottles around their backyards to demonstrate their wordliness.

 

[Deepgreen]

If waste doesn't cause any harm to any ecosystem, is it truly an environmental issue? or just a human aesthetic consideration based on our cultural value systems?

An old friend of mine used to trade with indigenous tribes in South America, when they went to big cities they saw litter everywhere which they perceived as a sign of affluence, so when they went back to their villages they'd leave plastic bottles around their backyards to demonstrate their wordliness.

In that case the people of Croydon (for example) must all be princes!

Of course rubbish, litter and waste materials are only a human construct in terms of visual intrusion, etc., but the issue is still generally classed an environmental one in western society. I don't think it is going to advance the discussion if we start looking at the lineside from the point of view of South American tribesmen.

In any case, it could be argued that waste is harmful in the wider context in that it requires more new material to be dug up/manufactured/refined, etc., than if recycling were to occur. Then there is the issue of animals trapped in waste containers, caught in wire, and so on.

 

[NSEFAN]

In the IT world we call this technical debt. Where the main objective of a project has been accomplished but some tidyup at the end was never finished. In other words, get the revenue in and screw everything else.

Some wider context is needed to see why tidy up can be forgotten about. IT support is subject to free-market forces: your customers can go elsewhere if they want. Plus, your customers interact with your IT kit daily and so it leaves a good impression on them to see a tidy, well-organised system. They can see you're doing a good job and will chose to continue using your services rather than those of A.N. Other tech support LTD.

Rail infrastructure is not subject to that same pressure, as there's only one Network Rail. Instead it's under political pressure to get as many trains running with as few failures as possible, all while delivering upgrades in the few hours that trains aren't running each night. A tidy railway is nice but far down on the priority list when you have the DfT breathing down your neck, asking why that electrification project isn't finished yet. This is ultimately the same government which created the shortage of skills in the first place, who interpret "value for money" as "do it as cheap as possible with the fewest staff possible". Remember also how regulated the rail industry is: skipping lunch breaks and working excessive overtime etc. might be then norm in the IT world but isn't acceptable in the rail industry, as it can lead to people being killed.

With all that in mind, can you at least see why clean up operations often get left out? I'm not saying it's good, but can you see why it's almost inevitable in the current climate (a climate which is largely outside of NR's direct control)?

 

[Deepgreen]

Some wider context is needed to see why tidy up can be forgotten about. IT support is subject to free-market forces: your customers can go elsewhere if they want. Plus, your customers interact with your IT kit daily and so it leaves a good impression on them to see a tidy, well-organised system. They can see you're doing a good job and will chose to continue using your services rather than those of A.N. Other tech support LTD.

Rail infrastructure is not subject to that same pressure, as there's only one Network Rail. Instead it's under political pressure to get as many trains running with as few failures as possible, all while delivering upgrades in the few hours that trains aren't running each night. A tidy railway is nice but far down on the priority list when you have the DfT breathing down your neck, asking why that electrification project isn't finished yet. This is ultimately the same government which created the shortage of skills in the first place, who interpret "value for money" as "do it as cheap as possible with the fewest staff possible". Remember also how regulated the rail industry is: skipping lunch breaks and working excessive overtime etc. might be then norm in the IT world but isn't acceptable in the rail industry, as it can lead to people being killed.

With all that in mind, can you at least see why clean up operations often get left out? I'm not saying it's good, but can you see why it's almost inevitable in the current climate (a climate which is largely outside of NR's direct control)?

Agree with all you say, but it's worth bearing in mind that excessive clutter/temptations for vandals can also "lead to people being killed", whether it be staff tripping into the path of a train (don't know if that's ever happened, but it's a risk) or passengers on a derailed train.

Anyhow, I come back to the original point of NR's chief promising something he apparently cannot/will not deliver. The railway operating regime has not changed that much in the year since he made the pledge.

 

[najaB]

Anyhow, I come back to the original point of NR's chief promising something he apparently cannot/will not deliver.

Something he cannot deliver overnight. It took many years to create the 'linear scrapyard' it isn't going to go away soon.

 

[Deepgreen]

Something he cannot deliver overnight. It took many years to create the 'linear scrapyard' it isn't going to go away soon.

Yes, obviously it can't be over-night, but, from what has been posted in this thread, it would seem that it may well not even be over-decade! The problem has indeed taken years to get to this stage, but it isn't helped by continuing to add to it.

 

[lincolnshire]

Was out and about on the train yesterday and forgot me rose coloured glasses to lookout at the line side and see all the spare rail and other track parts stored ready for use in emergency for repairs etc ( didn't see the barcode or labelling on it to identify which type or rail etc.)

Next time anyone passes through Doncaster just look at all the items laid about on both sides of the track some scrap and some reusable, surly this are a can be easily cleared in possessions arranged overnight in just the area between North Bridge and Carr Loco site.

Travelling on HS1 down to Kent from St.Pancras and lo and behold no piles of scrap etc. just strategic spare rail and crossings stored in the correct manner at locations to suit access from both road and rail.
But it soon changed when off HS1 and back on the normal rubbish laded railway that we all seem to have to get used too.

Returning home was a much improved view from the train no scrap to be seen hardly had the scrap faries been out and cleared it all away or was it the fact that I was on the 21-35 train from Kings Cross and it was dark out there.

 

[DarloRich]

Was out and about on the train yesterday and forgot me rose coloured glasses to lookout at the line side and see all the spare rail and other track parts stored ready for use in emergency for repairs etc ( didn't see the barcode or labelling on it to identify which type or rail etc.)

Next time anyone passes through Doncaster just look at all the items laid about on both sides of the track some scrap and some reusable, surly this are a can be easily cleared in possessions arranged overnight in just the area between North Bridge and Carr Loco site.

Travelling on HS1 down to Kent from St.Pancras and lo and behold no piles of scrap etc. just strategic spare rail and crossings stored in the correct manner at locations to suit access from both road and rail.
But it soon changed when off HS1 and back on the normal rubbish laded railway that we all seem to have to get used too.

Returning home was a much improved view from the train no scrap to be seen hardly had the scrap faries been out and cleared it all away or was it the fact that I was on the 21-35 train from Kings Cross and it was dark out there.

If you cant ( or wont) understand the differences between HS1 and the ECML and the access to them both there is little point trying to discuss this topic.

 

[lincolnshire]

If you cant ( or wont) understand the differences between HS1 and the ECML and the access to them both there is little point trying to discuss this topic.

Sorry I have been bad and took no notice of you and your views but there are other people out there who have views the same as me.

Getting possessions in Doncaster station area can,t be that difficult as lots of scrap is not near the mainlines which can remain open for all the traffic you seem to think uses it 24 hours a day as you seem to know all the answers to things on here.

The best thing would be get all the planners that Network Rail employ out there picking up scrap and then they might remember to build in enough time into the future plans for work planners who have never experienced on site work is what they need not desk top planning exercises.

 

[richieb1971]

Sorry I have been bad and took no notice of you and your views but there are other people out there who have views the same as me.

Getting possessions in Doncaster station area can,t be that difficult as lots of scrap is not near the mainlines which can remain open for all the traffic you seem to think uses it 24 hours a day as you seem to know all the answers to things on here.

The best thing would be get all the planners that Network Rail employ out there picking up scrap and then they might remember to build in enough time into the future plans for work planners who have never experienced on site work is what they need not desk top planning exercises.

People who support he current culture at Network rail must be the sort of people who leave the washing up until it hits the ceiling. I do like Darlorich, he really means well, talks like a politician and has a superiority complex. But for me he sticks up for things that should not be tolerated at all, let alone be supported or understood.

If there is the will, there is a way! I was brought up on that. It really is awful to have high standards and watch the world go to ruin.

 

[DarloRich]

Sorry I have been bad and took no notice of you and your views but there are other people out there who have views the same as me.

Getting possessions in Doncaster station area can,t be that difficult as lots of scrap is not near the mainlines which can remain open for all the traffic you seem to think uses it 24 hours a day as you seem to know all the answers to things on here.

The best thing would be get all the planners that Network Rail employ out there picking up scrap and then they might remember to build in enough time into the future plans for work planners who have never experienced on site work is what they need not desk top planning exercises.

whilst you are entitled to your views they simply are not practical or realistic. BTW it isn't the planners you want out picking up the waste. It is the politicians.

Why not read post number #164 as logged by NSEFAN.

People who support he current culture at Network rail must be the sort of people who leave the washing up until it hits the ceiling. I do like Darlorich, he really means well, talks like a politician and has a superiority complex. But for me he sticks up for things that should not be tolerated at all, let alone be supported or understood.

If there is the will, there is a way! I was brought up on that. It really is awful to have high standards and watch the world go to ruin.

I don't stick up for anything. I simply try to point out to world renowned experts such as your good-selves why things aren't, quite, as simple as you would like to suggest. An understanding or acknowledgment of some of the constraints involved in delivering on your fantasy island solutions would go some way to making them more realistic.

Alternatively you can simply continue with the on line version of sticking your fingers in your ears and ignoring all common sense..

 

[Bald Rick]

Getting possessions in Doncaster station area can,t be that difficult as lots of scrap is not near the mainlines which can remain open for all the traffic you seem to think uses it 24 hours a day as you seem to know all the answers to things on here.

The best thing would be get all the planners that Network Rail employ out there picking up scrap and then they might remember to build in enough time into the future plans for work planners who have never experienced on site work is what they need not desk top planning exercises.

26 trains ran through Doncaster between 0000 and 0600 this morning, with the largest gap 1h50 minutes. And another 20 or so trains are in the timetable but didn't run.

The NR planners have to work within the timetable for train services; perhaps if trains didn't run for 4-5 hours overnight (as per HS1) or the ECML had been built to 21st century standards with a huge gap between running lines, decent access points, and storage compounds at appropriate places (as per HS1) then it would be easier to pick it up.

Of course clearing the railway can be done, it just means cancelling trains to do it in many cases.

 

[cjmillsnun]

]
Of course clearing the railway can be done, it just means cancelling trains to do it in many cases.

And there is the crux of the problem... Which would you rather have? A clean and tidy railway or even more cancellations or delays?

Until possessions can be got for decent lengths of time with no pressure from TOCs or Government or FOCs or passengers, etc, etc and Network Rail left to do its job, then this problem won't go away quickly...

But this is the real world, and TOCs have to run trains, FOCs have to run trains, passengers want to get to work, and government don't want people shouting at them about the railways....

 

[richieb1971]

Volunteers on Christmas day? Or never.

 

[lincolnshire]

26 trains ran through Doncaster between 0000 and 0600 this morning, with the largest gap 1h50 minutes. And another 20 or so trains are in the timetable but didn't run.

The NR planners have to work within the timetable for train services; perhaps if trains didn't run for 4-5 hours overnight (as per HS1) or the ECML had been built to 21st century standards with a huge gap between running lines, decent access points, and storage compounds at appropriate places (as per HS1) then it would be easier to pick it up.

Of course clearing the railway can be done, it just means cancelling trains to do it in many cases.

Which lines did all the 26 trains through Doncaster station use then between 00-00 and 06-00, your telling me that all was in use for that period. Some areas must be available for possessions then?

If you don,t get the railway cleared eventually your going to run out of room for all the scrap etc or the Health & Safety Executive will end up investigating and ordering them to clear it for failing to provide a safe work in environment for staff to work etc.

Its no good all the time hiding behind the we have to run a train service, that is the nature of the business that Network Rail is in to provide infrastructure for operators to run trains on how you manage it is what you employ management for to manage a company to run it.

 

[HSTEd]

One long possesion to pick everything up when the H&SE orders it is probably cheaper than doing it as they go along.

 

[DarloRich]

Which lines did all the 26 trains through Doncaster station use then between 00-00 and 06-00, your telling me that all was in use for that period. Some areas must be available for possessions then?

Clearly not. However simply having the track available, on the face of it, isn't the only issue ( as MANY people have suggested above). You need men and machines to pick things up. Sadly those men are in finite pool and the pressure is always on to deliver maintenance work to provide that pesky infrastructure needed to run trains.

the Health & Safety Executive will end up investigating and ordering them to clear it for failing to provide a safe work in environment for staff to work etc.

That is the one sensible thing you have said! The risk to staff is of more interest to me than anything else.

Its no good all the time hiding behind the we have to run a train service, that is the nature of the business that Network Rail is in to provide infrastructure for operators to run trains on how you manage it is what you employ management for to manage a company to run it.

That shows a complete lack of understand of how possessions are suggested and agreed with the TOCs and shows you have little understanding of the subject.

 

[carriageline]

To be honest, this whole thread has just shown a complete lack of understanding, and that's completely fine, but people just ignore what has been said to them, despite we probably know a little bit more than them...

No, it's not right, and no I don't support it, but until someone offers a REAL, workable alternative it will carry on.

 

[Deepgreen]

Something which struck me this morning as I passed Purley on my way to work was that, very unusually these days, the new London-end junction layout, which was replaced over a Christmas and New Year blockade of nine days, has no waste at all lying around that I could see, and, as such, is a credit to the project.

However, there are two purpose-built road/rail access sites in the vicinity, one at South Croydon (between the Sanderstead and Purley lines) and the other between Purley and Couldson South. Both these sites have had heaps of old rails and other scrap lying there for ages. Why couldn't these have been removed by road during the blockade? In fact, I'm not even sure they would need a blockade or possession to do this, as I have seen other work going on at both sites in traffic hours, including road vehicles unloading trackside (at a distance of about twenty feet from the down Redhill line).