Network Rail's Linear Scrap Yard

[DarloRich]

I would imagine the materials will be waiting for pick up assuming they have been logged as needing a pick up!

 

[Deepgreen]

To be honest, this whole thread has just shown a complete lack of understanding, and that's completely fine, but people just ignore what has been said to them, despite we probably know a little bit more than them...

No, it's not right, and no I don't support it, but until someone offers a REAL, workable alternative it will carry on.

Fair enough, but, very boringly perhaps, I have to reiterate that someone should have advised Mark Varne to qualify clearly the strong implication in his speech a year ago that a major clear-up was imminent. We know there are huge barriers to a large-scale clearance, but the opportunities that are there still do not seem to be used.

 

[richieb1971]

Since Deepgreen made a comment just a few posts back that certain projects have left a spotless railway behind. Does this mean the garbage/excess materials is from an earlier era?

I quite often wonder if NR is split into teams A B C D etc... If team A does a perfect job and team C does an average job and team D do next to nothing.. Then of course you have a situation where some projects are done better than others.

I do sympathize with Deepgreen though, because if there is a mess, with the amount of work NR have its probably going to decompose before NR get round to it. At the earliest I would imagine the railway would have to taken up yet again before its cleared to a better standard.

 

[TheManBehind]

Since Deepgreen made a comment just a few posts back that certain projects have left a spotless railway behind. Does this mean the garbage/excess materials is from an earlier era?

Almost certainly. One thing to break even on rubbish, another to start winning the fight on reducing it.

Wessex is trialling low wagons and HIAB cranes on MPVs when they're not on leaf-buster/deicer duties to clear scrap rail from possessions, so NR is doing something about it - it's not as easy as "run some more trains into that possession" or "just put that scrap rail in those expensive hopper wagons"...

 

[Deepgreen]

Since Deepgreen made a comment just a few posts back that certain projects have left a spotless railway behind. Does this mean the garbage/excess materials is from an earlier era?

I quite often wonder if NR is split into teams A B C D etc... If team A does a perfect job and team C does an average job and team D do next to nothing.. Then of course you have a situation where some projects are done better than others.

I do sympathize with Deepgreen though, because if there is a mess, with the amount of work NR have its probably going to decompose before NR get round to it. At the earliest I would imagine the railway would have to taken up yet again before its cleared to a better standard.

At the South Croydon and Coulsdon South sites, the scrap (mainly rails) is very certainly very old, but also very far from decomposing! I think the reason for the Purley site being left in a commendable condition was probabaly that the entire junction layout was replaced, allowing complete panels and points to be removed in large chunks, rather than individual rail replacement, which tends to be more piecemeal (and the fact that there was a long blockade giving uninterrupted working).

 

[richieb1971]

Well I'm of the belief that its at the "team" level where the failure on this is.

Its certainly not across the board. Its since I'm fair I think the team that left it should clean it up. I certainly don't like troopers doing the grunt work for lazy personnel.

Lets face it NR is a company that wants to achieve results and get their primary function complete above all else. In my world someone would be cleaning up the mess as its been made. Then if there is any mess at the end its negligible.

And just like workman on the roads, there is usually 3 people working whilst 20 watch. So its them that should be cleaning up. I remember watching some guys at Bletchley build the new rails going into platform 5 and 6, there were mostly people sitting down doing nothing whilst one guy was doing all the work. And there were at least 15-20 people there.

 

[TheManBehind]

And just like workman on the roads, there is usually 3 people working whilst 20 watch.

That rather ignores the rather specialist nature of some of the work, like lookouts and strapmen. They have specific roles at specific points - if their employer chooses not to diversify their skills, there's probably a reason for it.

 

[dviner]

That rather ignores the rather specialist nature of some of the work, like lookouts and strapmen. They have specific roles at specific points - if their employer chooses not to diversify their skills, there's probably a reason for it.

What was also missing was an idea of the length of time over which this behaviour was observed.

Example taken from outside of the track-side work environment - where I work there have been some "workplace utilisation surveys" being carried out (bloke with a clipboard, clock and a floor plan going around the office at intervals noting down when a desk was occupied or not) it seemed to me that every time that he came around, I was away from my desk, consulting with a colleague. If he came around this week, I wouldn't have been there as I was out of the office all week. So, in theory, the observation could be made that my desk was effectively free, as there didn't appear to be anyone there.

Let's go back outside. One guy is working, and the other 15-20 are sitting around doing nothing.

Have these guys been sitting around doing nothing since they arrived at the worksite, or only for the 30 seconds you've been there? Do you know what they were doing before you started watching them? How long did you watch them for? What did they do after you stopped watching them?

What's the one guy working doing? Could it be that the others can't do anything until the one guy has done his thing? Maybe they're going to spell him on some extremely physical job?

 

[richieb1971]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQFZphvFJA4

skip to 11 mins 40 seconds.

I was there over an hour watching them. But for the amount of people present there doesn't seem much going on.

 

[Oxfordblues]

I volunteer with a track gang on the Welsh Highland Railway. There might be a dozen of us working hard shovelling ballast and greasing fishplates, but when a train is due we stop work to watch it pass. Many passengers probably think we're lazy layabouts as they only see us standing around!

 

[dviner]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQFZphvFJA4

skip to 11 mins 40 seconds.

I was there over an hour watching them. But for the amount of people present there doesn't seem much going on.

Didn't seem to be much sitting around either. I don't know exactly what they were doing, and I'm of the opinion that you don't know either - so how can you judge if they're skiving or working? It's not like they're putting up scaffolding, or building a wall, with their consequent "in your face" end results.

 

[richieb1971]

Didn't seem to be much sitting around either. I don't know exactly what they were doing, and I'm of the opinion that you don't know either - so how can you judge if they're skiving or working? It's not like they're putting up scaffolding, or building a wall, with their consequent "in your face" end results.

Well the end result is now done and its a good job.

 

[Marklund]

Didn't seem to be much sitting around either. I don't know exactly what they were doing, and I'm of the opinion that you don't know either - so how can you judge if they're skiving or working? It's not like they're putting up scaffolding, or building a wall, with their consequent "in your face" end results.

Well said.

This nit picking to the Nth degree has reached a whole new low.
Now we're working, but it doesn't look like we're doing much. :roll:

 

[Trog]

Since Deepgreen made a comment just a few posts back that certain projects have left a spotless railway behind. Does this mean the garbage/excess materials is from an earlier era?

Some of it has been around for a while, I once found some London & Birmingham Railway stone set sleepers while doing a little cess clearance.

 

[Ploughman]

When I had to go on handover meetings when taking over a site for a renewal, the NWR rep would stipulate that on completion we would be expected to have also cleared up any debris left by years of Network/ Railtrack/ BR maintenance dumping.
This usually took the form of spoil heaps from wet bedding and decaying sleepers that had been changed. Plus many rails.

 

[moggie]

Unfortunately Network Rail are too content to tolerate an environmental junkyard in their own backyard. Ultimately it is their problem. It is they who maintain the infrastructure, it is they who manage and control worksites, it is they who do a lot of the works and it is they who manage whichever contractors THEY appoint to do work on their behalf. It is they who arrange possessions. Not that that makes life simple. It isn't.

Any and all work will include a budget to dispose of waste rail material from site (not junk from their bad neighbours). The cost of recovering scrap / waste versus its value is a red herring as it's not negotiable whether to leave it uncollected. Therefore cost of recovery is factored in.

So, why does waste clearance not always happen? The most obvious reason is lack of opportunity to do so, albeit an unplanned lack of opportunity. If the planned collection is missed for whatever reason, e.g. a clear up weekend is used instead to complete a previously delayed / postponed part of the work, without extra possession of the line (and many other example already mentioned) then the planned resource / line possession / manpower may be lost. Adding another weekend or two of unplanned possessions for tidy up work at the end may not be forthcoming due to them not being considered 'essential' at the time, irrespective of being able to pay for extras, and of course the PM looks good if no apparent cost overrun. But, coming back to complete at a later date most probably would incur an unplanned extra cost and may be more money than remains in the authorised budget after all other minor unplanned hitches are costed to completion.

The net result is postponement but with minimal impact on the ultimate customer - the TOC's and their passengers, compounded by the need for extra unplanned possession which the TOC's may not support. QED - the scrap pile takes root and becomes another drain on future resource.

As for the usual crap about contractors. As stated, they work for NR. They do what NR and the contractual terms dictate. Importantly though, they do it within the time permitted within the contract. If insufficient time remains to complete (it maybe the failure to complete on time is not the fault of the contractor) AND an alternative opportunity to complete the snagging works and as previously agreed with NR isn't provided by NR within the stipulated timeframe, then the contractor will demobilise from the site (as required by the contract) and bugger off. It is not their fault if NR are unable to grant an opportunity within the a reasonable time as per the terms of a pre-agreed contract and for which the contractor must make reasonable provision.

In practice, all major projects will leave the site in probably the best condition it will ever be as H&S / Environmental legislation requires them to do so. Only after will it deteriorate slowly under a stretched NR maintenance organisation not financed to do purely gardening and rubbish clearing - it seems.

 

[lincolnshire]

Will agree with you there Moggie, but there will be some on here along shortly to tell us we are wrong and don,t know what we are talking about etc etc.

But as you say its Network Rails problem to manage it not yours or mine thats why they are appointed to there jobs at Network Rail.

 

[DarloRich]

Will agree with you there Moggie, but there will be some on here along shortly to tell us we are wrong and don,t know what we are talking about etc etc.

But as you say its Network Rails problem to manage it not yours or mine thats why they are appointed to there jobs at Network Rail.

have you actually read what Moggie wrote or just picked out words that suit your point of view? The majority of what is a very well written post expressing many of the issues does nothing to support your views.

 

[lincolnshire]

have you actually read what Moggie wrote or just picked out words that suit your point of view? The majority of what is a very well written post expressing many of the issues does nothing to support your views.

Twisting words etc to suit your cause then.

Its Network Rail,s job to manage the railway and its contractors and its own staff, so are they competent to manage ?

 

[DarloRich]

Twisting words etc to suit your cause then.

Its Network Rail,s job to manage the railway and its contractors and its own staff, so are they competent to manage ?

so that's a no then. You picked out one sentence to suit your needs.

OF COURSE it is the responsibility of NR to pick up things like scrap, being the maintainer of the infrastructure. The problem is that you and other experts seem unable ( or as i suspect unwilling) to grasp the operational environment and real world challenges in which that is done. Do try to read all of the post and not just the bit that suits you. It is a very good post.

 

[lincolnshire]

so that's a no then. You picked out one sentence to suit your needs.

OF COURSE it is the responsibility of NR to pick up things like scrap, being the maintainer of the infrastructure. The problem is that you and other experts seem unable ( or as i suspect unwilling) to grasp the operational environment and real world challenges in which that is done. Do try to read all of the post and not just the bit that suits you. It is a very good post.

I can read every post, word for word all day long but it still comes back to its Network Rail,s job to manage the infrastructure and all that goes with the job of running the railway its not my Job.
Its them that grant the times and paths when trains can run not me, so its upto them to sort things to get there work done as required not mine.

So instead of keep belly aching on about why it can,t be done have a word with Mark Carne or Sir Peter Hendy send him an e.mail and tell them that you can,t get possessions you need and not me.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I can read every post, word for word all day long but it still comes back to its Network Rail,s job to manage the infrastructure and all that goes with the job of running the railway its not my Job.
Its them that grant the times and paths when trains can run not me, so its upto them to sort things to get there work done as required not mine.

So instead of keep belly aching on about why it can,t be done have a word with Mark Carne or Sir Peter Hendy send him an e.mail and tell them that you can,t get possessions you need and not me.

Possessions are only one facet of the problem, don't think we're going to take a possession and run an engineering train just to lift 10 tonnes of ballast and couple of dozen sleepers.

There needs to be enough scrap and waste to recover to make best use of a possession.

 

[DarloRich]

I can read every post, word for word all day long but it still comes back to its Network Rail,s job to manage the infrastructure and all that goes with the job of running the railway its not my Job.
Its them that grant the times and paths when trains can run not me, so its upto them to sort things to get there work done as required not mine.

So instead of keep belly aching on about why it can,t be done have a word with Mark Carne or Sir Peter Hendy send him an e.mail and tell them that you can,t get possessions you need and not me.

what on earth are you wittering on about? You are absolutely clueless. :roll:

 

[lincolnshire]

You and your side kick above keep telling everyone that we are clueless anyone who wants to disagree with you , god knows who your employer is the both of you as do you keep telling him all the reasons why things can,t be done.

If he says its going to happen then do you tell him why it can,t all the time.

 

[DarloRich]

You and your side kick above keep telling everyone that we are clueless anyone who wants to disagree with you , god knows who your employer is the both of you as do you keep telling him all the reasons why things can,t be done.

If he says its going to happen then do you tell him why it can,t all the time.

side kick? i am sorry but I have no idea what you are going on about!

The whole point that you refuse to grasp is it isn't as simple as you think or like to suggest. That doesn't mean nothing is happening to sort this issue out ( it is) just that it cant happen the way or as easily as you think. it isn't a case of simply standing at a location pointing at something and shouting:

MAKE IT SO!

For instance you seem to think NR can simply insist to, say, Virgin that their first 6 trains of the day should be canceled to pick up scrap rail. Much as we both might like that to be the case it simply isn't like that! You seem unable to consider how the tightly regulated and vastly fragmented environment in which the railway operate might have an impact upon the ability of people to deliver upon your grand instructions. That doesn't mean people don't want to collect all this scrap or that things are not happening ( they are). There needs to be some understanding of the constraints involved in such operations.

I know I am wasting my time trying to get through to you but hopefully other people will take the time to consider the issues.............

 

[Hellzapoppin]

Attended a meeting yesterday and the subject of scrap was raised yet again, one idea is for the HOPS train to deliver piles to site and collect scrap on its way back. If it can be done I think it'll make a big difference to the scrap rail problem on the Western.

 

[moggie]

Possessions are only one facet of the problem, don't think we're going to take a possession and run an engineering train just to lift 10 tonnes of ballast and couple of dozen sleepers.

There needs to be enough scrap and waste to recover to make best use of a possession.

Indeed PP - after the event so to speak. The period prior to the scrap being left there and when a scrap train is eventually run to clear it is the period I describe as NR being 'happy to tolerate'. NR would certainly not entertain the same attitude from their contractors that's for sure!

But, I totally understand what you're saying. Cost and service provision trumps meeting the environmental obligations. But as others have implied, when does an environmental hazard turn into a safety hazard. A fine line for some poor NR soul to draw.

PS. No axe to grind against NR. Whoever is in charge of the infrastructure in today's 'everyone expects, everyone demands' society' irrespective of reason will face precisely the same issues. If it was included as a KPI for Carne and co it would change. If TOC's ran the show what incentive would they have to improve the situation? I'd be interested to hear.

 

[najaB]

Wow! Just passed through Carstairs for the first time in a while and the forest is gone! You can see clearly from the south junction to the station. What a difference it makes.

 

[Taunton]

I wonder how the old ganger at Taunton managed long ago. There was never a single piece of scrap metal thrown at the lineside, but there were also never any weeds to hide it either. His gangs were a fraction the size of the "orange army" who get turned out nowadays to change a fishplate. The railway was far busier then throughout the 24 hours than the long nighttime quiet spells of nowadays. And he never had an injury as long as I knew them.

 

[lincolnshire]

I wonder how the old ganger at Taunton managed long ago. There was never a single piece of scrap metal thrown at the lineside, but there were also never any weeds to hide it either. His gangs were a fraction the size of the "orange army" who get turned out nowadays to change a fishplate. The railway was far busier then throughout the 24 hours than the long nighttime quiet spells of nowadays. And he never had an injury as long as I knew them.

The above was posted at 17-22 and its now 18-35 and you haven,t been told that you don,t know what your talking about yet. lets wait and see how long before some people come along and tells us different.