Network Rail's Linear Scrap Yard

[DarloRich]

My point was that the average passenger can be expected to want a working railway that is also reasonably tidy, environmentally-responsible, etc. The logistics of achieving this do not really concern them; however, those same logistics represent a serious problem that the industry faces.

I do agree. However the logistics will concern them when the line is closed more often or trains run later.

More needs to be done. One option is to do less work in the available windows. Another is better planning. Another is more men and machinery. Another is more money. Another is a target programme. etc etc

The solution will be a combination of options on a case by case basis I fear!

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Then again, lets just remind ourselves of what can happen when such detritus isnt cleared away......

I appreciate time may not be on the staff's side, the scrap value might well be less than the cost of clearing etc etc..... Yet this accident at Ealing which wrecked 50 025 Invincible in spectacular style could have been much worse. A HST passed at speed in the opposite direction and narrowly missed colliding with the airborne hoover. No one lost their lives that day, but the potential could have been a vastly different outcome.

 

[Deepgreen]

Then again, lets just remind ourselves of what can happen when such detritus isnt cleared away......

I appreciate time may not be on the staff's side, the scrap value might well be less than the cost of clearing etc etc..... Yet this accident at Ealing which wrecked 50 025 Invincible in spectacular style could have been much worse. A HST passed at speed in the opposite direction and narrowly missed colliding with the airborne hoover. No one lost their lives that day, but the potential could have been a vastly different outcome.

Indeed. The loco's name was ironic under the circumstances, I thought.

 

[DarloRich]

Then again, lets just remind ourselves of what can happen when such detritus isnt cleared away......

I appreciate time may not be on the staff's side, the scrap value might well be less than the cost of clearing etc etc..... Yet this accident at Ealing which wrecked 50 025 Invincible in spectacular style could have been much worse. A HST passed at speed in the opposite direction and narrowly missed colliding with the airborne hoover. No one lost their lives that day, but the potential could have been a vastly different outcome.

agreed: That is the key reason ( not passenger window gazing) why we have to get this sorted out. It will kill and injure people if we don't.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Then again, lets just remind ourselves of what can happen when such detritus isnt cleared away.

It's vaguely valid, but if vandals want to do something like this, they'll just use signal cable trough lids, or they'll park a moped on the track instead.

It does show, of course, that leaving rail trackside for whatever reason isn't a new Network Rail issue, but something which has been in evidence for 30 years, and if you go back further, you'll find it's something that has happened pretty much from day one.

 

[Deepgreen]

It's vaguely valid, but if vandals want to do something like this, they'll just use signal cable trough lids, or they'll park a moped on the track instead.

It does show, of course, that leaving rail trackside for whatever reason isn't a new Network Rail issue, but something which has been in evidence for 30 years, and if you go back further, you'll find it's something that has happened pretty much from day one.

More than vaguely valid, I would suggest. I think sections of rail have easily the greatest chance of causing problems (not least from an electrical point of view), as cable troughing lids (concrete) are likely to shatter on being hit, and mopeds, etc., would probably be shifted relatively harmlessly.

Clearly the issue isn't just one pertaining to NR's regime, but it has become untenable during recent years.

Incidentally, propped up just next to the cable run in the up side 10 foot between Honor Oak Park and Brockley is... a moped!

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Interestingly, this has just hit my inbox.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/collision-at-knockmore-junction
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More than vaguely valid, I would suggest. I think sections of rail have easily the greatest chance of causing problems (not least from an electrical point of view), as cable troughing lids (concrete) are likely to shatter on being hit, and mopeds, etc., would probably be shifted relatively harmlessly.

Clearly the issue isn't just one pertaining to NR's regime, but it has become untenable during recent years.

Incidentally, propped up just next to the cable run in the up side 10 foot between Honor Oak Park and Brockley is... a moped!

A length of rail is no worse than other items which could be placed on the track for the purposes of derailing a train maliciously, upto and including placing a car on a level crossing.

It's more about how those objects interacts with trackwork - points and crossovers in particular, than whether a rail is the biggest problem to consider. There was talk at one point of removing pointwork immediately adjacent to crossings where possible, so in the event of a train hitting a car, the car (being pushed by the braking train) wouldn't hit pointwork and derail the train.

The electrical point is important - rail will generally show track circuit sections as being occupied, and if it comes into contact with third rail, it's likely to trip the power, so in a couple of scenarios, the best thing vandals could do is put rail on the track and not sleepers, cable troughing or other items brought from outwith the railway itself.

 

[richieb1971]

Would thieves be a blessing or a curse?

 

[RichmondCommu]

Do you apply the same philosophy to, for example, littering and fly-tipping in the wider environment - as long as it isn't a direct danger to the public (never mind any staff), it's perfectly fine?

In all honesty, if I can't see it and it doesn't cause my fellow rail travelers or I any harm than frankly I couldn't care less. If I see litter on the street than yes I think its a mess but as I seldom look out of the window on the train I really don't care. And in all honesty I think that's the opinion of the vast majority of rail travelers.

 

[Deepgreen]

In all honesty, if I can't see it and it doesn't cause my fellow rail travelers or I any harm than frankly I couldn't care less. If I see litter on the street than yes I think its a mess but as I seldom look out of the window on the train I really don't care. And in all honesty I think that's the opinion of the vast majority of rail travelers.

Well, that's a shame, and I really think you are wrong about most travellers. I have overheard many conversations on trains recently about the mess around the railway.

 

[richieb1971]

Lets not forget you have to have the ability to see out of the window in the first place. On some trains the only clean window is the one at the front.

I found an old video from 2012 where Network rail left tons of stuff and just threw it in the bushes/ditches - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUy6zzx_ikE

 

[RichmondCommu]

Well, that's a shame, and I really think you are wrong about most travellers. I have overheard many conversations on trains recently about the mess around the railway.

I commute into Waterloo five days a week, I travel up to Manchester once a week and I travel up to the East Midlands three to four times a month. I can't recall anyone looking out the window and saying "'cor, what a mess".

Perhaps you would like to direct me to these mess hot spots.

 

[Bald Rick]

Well, that's a shame, and I really think you are wrong about most travellers. I have overheard many conversations on trains recently about the mess around the railway.

Genuinely, the only time I have ever heard comments like that are when I'm with the people responsible for it.

 

[Marklund]

I found an old video from 2012 where Network rail left tons of stuff and just threw it in the bushes/ditches - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUy6zzx_ikE

Well done you. You should get a special badge for finding that.
:roll:

If you're really that bothered by it, have you called the public helpline to complain?
Have you written to your MP? ORR? Anything???

 

[dviner]

Lets not forget you have to have the ability to see out of the window in the first place. On some trains the only clean window is the one at the front.

I found an old video from 2012 where Network rail left tons of stuff and just threw it in the bushes/ditches - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUy6zzx_ikE

By "threw it in the bushes" you mean the several sets of rail and concrete sleepers stacked up off the railway in a location that has no road access - so the only way to remove these large and heavy items would be to bring in the appropriate road-rail vehicles to lift the panels, plus a freight loco pulling the appropriate wagons that can transport those panels?

Not quite a "send some community work order scrotes out with bin bags" clean up effort.

 

[Deepgreen]

I commute into Waterloo five days a week, I travel up to Manchester once a week and I travel up to the East Midlands three to four times a month. I can't recall anyone looking out the window and saying "'cor, what a mess".

Perhaps you would like to direct me to these mess hot spots.

I think the most recent instance was when leaving Clapham Junction towards East Croydon, when a couple mentioned the graffiti first, then some piles of debris. Of course, one or both of them might have worked for the railway - I have no way of knowing. I think the average passenger does notice graffiti more than any other railway mess, but I also think there is probably at least a subconscious recognition of more general mess.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I think the most recent instance was when leaving Clapham Junction towards East Croydon, when a couple mentioned the graffiti first, then some piles of debris. Of course, one or both of them might have worked for the railway - I have no way of knowing. I think the average passenger does notice graffiti more than any other railway mess, but I also think there is probably at least a subconscious recognition of more general mess.

The good news for those who commute in third rail world, is that NR has a new HOBC compatible with third rail due for delivery later this year, that should give a bit of flexibility to take some time during possessions to tidy up afterwards.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I think the most recent instance was when leaving Clapham Junction towards East Croydon, when a couple mentioned the graffiti first, then some piles of debris. Of course, one or both of them might have worked for the railway - I have no way of knowing. I think the average passenger does notice graffiti more than any other railway mess, but I also think there is probably at least a subconscious recognition of more general mess.

In terms of graffiti people do tend to notice if it's been daubed on trains and perhaps if it's been sprayed on retaining wall's etc. That kind of thing does tend to annoy me as essentially someone is defacing private property and I certainly wouldn't like that to be done to my car. That said some graffiti is actually rather amusing and people like Banksy certainly have talent.

However, in terms of line side mess if you think about it that is away from the natural eye line of the traveler and that's assuming that they are looking out the window in the first place. It's for that reason that I think very few people notice line side clutter.
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The good news for those who commute in third rail world, is that NR has a new HOBC compatible with third rail due for delivery later this year, that should give a bit of flexibility to take some time during possessions to tidy up afterwards.

Apologies for what is perhaps a stupid question but what is a HOBC?

 

[221129]

Apologies for what is perhaps a stupid question but what is a HOBC?

High Output Ballast Cleaner.

 

[RichmondCommu]

High Output Ballast Cleaner.

Many thanks

 

[steverailer]

Just to put a bit of meat on the bones regarding possession times and problems. Where I am currently working we are lucky and get mid week possessions from approx 2130 to 0500. Now this is the published times and what the planners seem to go off, but by the time the PICOP (Person In Charge Of Possession) has done his stuff and granted the ES (engineering supervisor) his worksite, then the ES has got his boards out, got the works train into position and called around all the COSS'S (Controller Of Site Safety) we usually are allowed to access the track at around 2200 to 2230. Then probably an hours travel to the work location and accesses are poor on our job plus we can only travel at 5 mph meaning the work doesn't actually start until midnight.

Then if the engineering train needs to move past us we have to stand down as that takes priority, so possibly another half hour lost. The ES will want everyone clear off the track and signed out in person with him by around 0415 at the latest so the hand back can happen on time, meaning we have to leave the work location at 0300 at the latest to allow for travel and off tracking and that is if we're working on the same site as the ES is as, he can be upto half an hour away so we have to allow for that as well.

All this means that in a 7.5 hrs possession you could be down to 3 hrs of actual work. This is where the time pressure comes in, as some of this is taken in to account in the planning but not all. Then add in delays like we had last week with a fatality on the line delaying the possession or late running trains and it all gets screwed up even more.

We do take pride in our work, but sometimes other factors mean things have to get left track side, its a case of balancing the costs, and the cost of an overrun is more than leaving some bits behind. Plus if you are regularly late to sign out with the ES he'll shorten you're access time and want you to be signed out earlier so he doesn't hand back late.

 

[The Planner]

Steady on, facts never go down well. Great post by the way.

 

[dviner]

Ah, but for that 3 hours of work, some time should have been planned in to tidy up the site! No excuses!! Pure incompetence!!!

(if you didn't guess, tongue was very firmly in cheek there).

I'll echo The Planner - Good Post steverailer.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Ah, but for that 3 hours of work, some time should have been planned in to tidy up the site! No excuses!! Pure incompetence!!!

(if you didn't guess, tongue was very firmly in cheek there).

I'll echo The Planner - Good Post steverailer.

+1 from me also.

And slightly agitated that ORR stopped Network Rail from doing more work on safer, faster road rail vehicles in CP5. Memory is a bit fuzzy, but I seem to recall NR were going to design their own road rail digger device until ORR decided that's something a contractor should be doing themselves.

 

[najaB]

And slightly agitated that ORR stopped Network Rail from doing more work on safer, faster road rail vehicles in CP5.

It seems to me at least that a vehicle with a magnetic track brake should be capable of stopping more quickly from, say, 20mph than a traditional one can from 5mph.

 

[Bald Rick]

Steady on, facts never go down well. Great post by the way.

+1 from me as well.

Now try it with a possession time of 0100 to 0400, with conductor rail permits to sort as well, and you have the situation in most of south London.

 

[steverailer]

+1 from me as well.

Now try it with a possession time of 0100 to 0400, with conductor rail permits to sort as well, and you have the situation in most of south London.

Or getting a C form for OLE

Where I am now is a nice long possession, but add in earthing up and you can loose another half to an hour each end.

Have worked in places where were just finishing packing the gear up off track when the first train passes, thats within 30 mins of us getting off.

TBH its rare for us to leave stuff at the side of the track as I work on the OLE so its straight out of the basket and onto the truck. But we do sometimes on a new build like the GWR as it can save time the next night not having to load the booms or masts at the beginning and just install what we have left out.
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+1 from me also.

And slightly agitated that ORR stopped Network Rail from doing more work on safer, faster road rail vehicles in CP5. Memory is a bit fuzzy, but I seem to recall NR were going to design their own road rail digger device until ORR decided that's something a contractor should be doing themselves.

Problem with that is the rule book still states that its 5 mph in a worksite, go over that and theres the risk of losing your tickets.

Our machines are quite capable of 40mph on track and do do this in other countries, we have them de-rated to a max of 20mph but still can only do 5mph on track as per rule book (unless there's a risk of an overrun and the es says differently but that never happens )

 

[Bald Rick]

Or getting a C form for OLE

Agreed, but you don't need C forms in OLE areas to do most track maintenance. Unlike with the con rail, where changing a rail or sleeper often requires it.

 

[richieb1971]

Nice posts.

So lets say 50 tons of wastage/scrap/unused material is left behind because of a delay. The foreman or person in charge is PERFECTLY aware that it is being left.

Does that go into a report? Does he care? Does a new scheduled cleanup get put on a roster?

Or does it just get left for a rainy day when NR have nothing to do?

The answers we get on this forum are always abou WHY! But the answers rarely say what gets done about it in the end. In the IT world we call this technical debt. Where the main objective of a project has been accomplished but some tidyup at the end was never finished. In other words, get the revenue in and screw everything else.

 

[steverailer]

Nice posts.

So lets say 50 tons of wastage/scrap/unused material is left behind because of a delay. The foreman or person in charge is PERFECTLY aware that it is being left.

Does that go into a report? Does he care? Does a new scheduled cleanup get put on a roster?

Or does it just get left for a rainy day when NR have nothing to do?

The answers we get on this forum are always abou WHY! But the answers rarely say what gets done about it in the end. In the IT world we call this technical debt. Where the main objective of a project has been accomplished but some tidyup at the end was never finished. In other words, get the revenue in and screw everything else.

On the OLE side, yes it goes in the end of shift report along with the reason for why and exactly what was left and where. As for a new schedule, that's down to the planners. The stuff we usually leave is for installation, so is planned for later possessions, its very rare we leave scrap, if we do that is planned for collection later. Mainly as the scrap we have is of higher value ie copper, aluminum and brass.

Btw our reports are very detailed as to times for each possession, on track of each machine, loading times ect even down to the time each location is completed. Accompanied with photos of problems. As for what happens after that I'm not that sure as I have enough on compiling the things as well as trying to do my linesman job and sort the lads out.