Nelson Mandela has died

[soil]

He replaced one Racist government with another

Not to mention his antisemitism.

Mandela sings about killing the Boer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcOXqFQw2hc
Zuma sings about killing the Boer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fzRSE_p1Ys

I used to have a (white) South African boss, they had 'boys' (black servants) around when growing up. He said that one of the 'boys' looked at his teenage sister, so his father beat the boy.

That's the environment. Blacks lower than dogs.

I'm not sure why it's shocking that people subjected to this would sing about killing Boers?

Besides which is perfectly common place in war to sing rude songs about your enemies. Plenty exist for the Germans. Nothing wrong with that at all.

 

[HST Power]

I don't think it's possible to lay the blame for everything at his feet. He has been out of power for 14 years now, and was only President for five years out of the last hundred.

In modern times equality is seen as paramount. Racial segregation is unconscionable. 'Am I not a man and a brother?'

Bringing an end to that is a clear achievement. The subsequent mess is much harder to unravel.



99.99% of posts on the internet are a waste of time, including this one.



I doubt it.

I think you miss the point and are choosing to obfuscate.

Apartheid is and was objectively wrong. Those who were fighting against it inevitably acquire a much greater legitimacy than those who were enforcing it (who also committed atrocities, and with much less cause, since they were in the position of power). Violence is often necessary to uproot evil. You do not evaluate WW2 by reading the combined works of David Irving any more than you can evaluate Mandela's legacy by reference to one-sided white nationalist websites.

Apartheid was wrong and was ended in large part through Mandela. The subsequent failure of the South African government to act on AIDS, violence, and other things are a separate issue and they do not alter any part of apartheid being wrong.

The unstated and implied argument you are making is obviously 'the current ZA government is ineffective, therefore it was wrong to end apartheid'. It's just as reasonable, however, to conclude 'The current ZA government came about because of apartheid.' In other words, colonial minority governments inevitably begat unstable majority governments after they end.

There are plenty of examples around the world of 'good' and 'bad' colonialism, but what is absolutely wrong and absurd is to suggest that the current ANC government arose through abiogenesis and has nothing to do with what came before it.

I was very clear right from the start that apartheid was wrong. I said, quite clearly, in the first post I made in this thread, that I did not support the apartheid system. So let's get the racial epithets over and done with - if you feel that I'm some sort of pro-segregationist I'm sorry you feel that way.

I don't understand what you mean when you say 'white nationalist' websites. That's rubbish. The work that takes place on Censorbugbear is supported by Genocide Watch, a body who are in turn supported by the UN. They have issued several reports into genocide in South Africa. How this is 'white nationalist' is somewhat beyond me, as the work is endorsed by leading academics, such as Dr Gregory Stanton. When you consider the fact that 70,000 Afrikaner people have been murdered since 1994, it's hardly surprising news.

You have to understand the history of the ANC in order to understand the current situation taking place in South Africa. The ANC founded the UmKhonto we Sizwe during the sixties; this was the military wing, led by Mandela. They placed bombs all over the nation, killing men, women and children, black, white and coloured alike. I posted links to these bombs. They also put many black people into concentration camps, ran in Angola and Namibia. They admit this - when Dr Desmond Tutu ran the Truth and Reconciliation Committee during the nineteen nineties, the ANC admitted that such atrocities had taken place. There are books about it (the author of the latter was in prison during apartheid), yet we will never know how many people were actually tortured and murdered. The ANC never say.

This went on under the watches of Mandela and Zuma, as well as other high ranking figures in the ANC, such as the (late) Haani and Mbeki.

These people now run the country.

376,627 reported murders (57 per day), 597,900 reported homicides (91 per day), 443,551 reported attempted murders (67 per day), 4,175,178 reported serious assaults (635 per day), 1,111,425 reported rapes (169 per day) and 22,228,500 estimated rapes (3,383 per day).

Suddenly, Mandela dies, everyone wants to talk about South Africa.

Apartheid was undeniably wrong. Nobody wants to bring back apartheid.

But there are better examples of freedom fighters. MLK, Ghandi, etc, etc.

After everything the nation goes through, we have one death, and suddenly all the cameras are on us, showing a biased side of history and ignoring stated facts?

Apartheid would have ended anyway. SA would have never outlived the political pressure and economic sanctions.

I wonder if HST Power applies the same opinion that he has about Mandela to Allied forces in WW2.

:roll:

 

[Amberley54]

I wonder if HST Power applies the same opinion that he has about Mandela to Allied forces in WW2.

HST will probably also add de Valera and Menachem Begin to his distorted categorisation of freedom fighters that promote the transition to democracy in their nations?

 

[soil]

I was very clear right from the start that apartheid was wrong. I said, quite clearly, in the first post I made in this thread, that I did not support the apartheid system. So let's get the racial epithets over and done with - if you feel that I'm some sort of pro-segregationist I'm sorry you feel that way.

I don't understand what you mean when you say 'white nationalist' websites. That's rubbish. The work that takes place on Censorbugbear is supported by Genocide Watch, a body who are in turn supported by the UN. They have issued several reports into genocide in South Africa. How this is 'white nationalist' is somewhat beyond me, as the work is endorsed by leading academics, such as Dr Gregory Stanton. When you consider the fact that 70,000 Afrikaner people have been murdered since 1994, it's hardly surprising news.

You linked to Praag, a website which features headlines such as

http://praag.org/?p=11839

'S. African blacks loot foreigners’ shops'

and offers a poll:

'Which is the most racist fruit (or nut)?

The banana
Watermelon
Kaffir melon (Citrullus lanatus)
The coconut
White grapes
Black grapes
Peanuts
Litchis
The apple
'

and similar.

The Censor Bugbear site has close links to PRAAG.

http://www.censorbugbear.org/farmitracker/reports/view/1802

These are racists.

You have to understand the history of the ANC in order to understand the current situation taking place in South Africa. The ANC founded the UmKhonto we Sizwe during the sixties; this was the military wing, led by Mandela. They placed bombs all over the nation, killing men, women and children, black, white and coloured alike.

Bombs don't tend to discriminate. But they are a common feature in war.

What distinguishes Mandela's bombs from Obama's bombs, Churchill's bombs, Bush's bombs, etc.?

This went on under the watches of Mandela and Zuma, as well as other high ranking figures in the ANC, such as the (late) Haani and Mbeki.

These people now run the country.

Clearly not, Mandela is dead and has been out of power for 15 years.

376,627 reported murders (57 per day), 597,900 reported homicides (91 per day), 443,551 reported attempted murders (67 per day), 4,175,178 reported serious assaults (635 per day), 1,111,425 reported rapes (169 per day) and 22,228,500 estimated rapes (3,383 per day).

I'm not sure what your point is.

There are parts of the world where crime is very high. I believe that West Papua has similar rape figures. Why? Because the Indonesian government tortured and murdered and annexed the country (formally Netherlands New Guinea) with the support of the Americans as part of a wider anti-Communist genocide endorsed by the American government.

When you have oppressive alien regimes, as the Indonesians were in East Timor and still are in West Papua, and the whites were in South Africa, then it's not going to be easy to transition to sunshine and lollipops.

The current government of South Africa is a product of a century of history. It's not about Zuma, Mbeki or Mandela, or the wider South African government, not doing right, it's about the kind of influences that these people had on them through history, and whereas in the UK we have had several centuries of enlightenment and moderation, South Africa comes out of a century of racism and oppression.

Suddenly, Mandela dies, everyone wants to talk about South Africa.

No they don't, they want to talk about Mandela and how he is an inspiring figure.

I don't think they are particularly interested in South Africa.

But there are better examples of freedom fighters. MLK, Ghandi, etc, etc.

But they didn't just die yesterday.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If the 1976 Soweto massacre by gunshot of student protesters with a death toll of 176 (lowest figure that I could find so not to be accused of exaggeration) by the police had occurred in Britain, would there have been a similar outcry to that which then occurred in South Africa townships.

England once experienced a reaction against the rule of an oppressive invading power which was ruthlessly suppressed by "The Harrying of the North" a few years after the Norman invasion with deaths and crop fields salted to ensure starvation of the local population.

 

[fowler9]

I was very clear right from the start that apartheid was wrong. I said, quite clearly, in the first post I made in this thread, that I did not support the apartheid system. So let's get the racial epithets over and done with - if you feel that I'm some sort of pro-segregationist I'm sorry you feel that way.

I don't understand what you mean when you say 'white nationalist' websites. That's rubbish. The work that takes place on Censorbugbear is supported by Genocide Watch, a body who are in turn supported by the UN. They have issued several reports into genocide in South Africa. How this is 'white nationalist' is somewhat beyond me, as the work is endorsed by leading academics, such as Dr Gregory Stanton. When you consider the fact that 70,000 Afrikaner people have been murdered since 1994, it's hardly surprising news.

You have to understand the history of the ANC in order to understand the current situation taking place in South Africa. The ANC founded the UmKhonto we Sizwe during the sixties; this was the military wing, led by Mandela. They placed bombs all over the nation, killing men, women and children, black, white and coloured alike. I posted links to these bombs. They also put many black people into concentration camps, ran in Angola and Namibia. They admit this - when Dr Desmond Tutu ran the Truth and Reconciliation Committee during the nineteen nineties, the ANC admitted that such atrocities had taken place. There are books about it (the author of the latter was in prison during apartheid), yet we will never know how many people were actually tortured and murdered. The ANC never say.

This went on under the watches of Mandela and Zuma, as well as other high ranking figures in the ANC, such as the (late) Haani and Mbeki.

These people now run the country.

376,627 reported murders (57 per day), 597,900 reported homicides (91 per day), 443,551 reported attempted murders (67 per day), 4,175,178 reported serious assaults (635 per day), 1,111,425 reported rapes (169 per day) and 22,228,500 estimated rapes (3,383 per day).

Suddenly, Mandela dies, everyone wants to talk about South Africa.

Apartheid was undeniably wrong. Nobody wants to bring back apartheid.

But there are better examples of freedom fighters. MLK, Ghandi, etc, etc.

After everything the nation goes through, we have one death, and suddenly all the cameras are on us, showing a biased side of history and ignoring stated facts?

Apartheid would have ended anyway. SA would have never outlived the political pressure and economic sanctions.



:roll:

After decades of abuse and repression what would you expect to happen? I am also not sure that Ghandi is a good example using the same criteria.

 

[GWRtom]

I used to have a (white) South African boss, they had 'boys' (black servants) around when growing up. He said that one of the 'boys' looked at his teenage sister, so his father beat the boy.

That's the environment. Blacks lower than dogs.

I'm not sure why it's shocking that people subjected to this would sing about killing Boers?

Besides which is perfectly common place in war to sing rude songs about your enemies. Plenty exist for the Germans. Nothing wrong with that at all.

You think it's appropriate for Zuma to sing about killing the Boer :roll:

You don't see Netanyahu singing about killing Germans.

 

[St Rollox]

Did somebody really post "Apartheid would have ended anyway".

Strange world view some people have.

 

[soil]

You think it's appropriate for Zuma to sing about killing the Boer :roll:

It would seem that it's a patriotic song that is traditionally song in South Africa. It's not just random 'kill the whitey'

You don't see Netanyahu singing about killing Germans.

Actually it's not uncommon, not him necessarily, but generally for patriotic songs to be a bit like this, see

http://www.cracked.com/article_16735_6-national-anthems-that-will-make-you-tremble-with-fear.html

 

[Butts]

In the UK we don't have apartheid based on race but some may argue the equally invidious class or socio-economic grouping.

Without money many people are excluded from things others take for granted.

In theory everyone may be able to participate with no colour exclusion but the net result is the same

 

[HST Power]

HST will probably also add de Valera and Menachem Begin to his distorted categorisation of freedom fighters that promote the transition to democracy in their nations?

Nice sources!

Oh, wait.....

You linked to Praag, a website which features headlines such as

http://praag.org/?p=11839

'S. African blacks loot foreigners’ shops'

and offers a poll:

'Which is the most racist fruit (or nut)?

The banana
Watermelon
Kaffir melon (Citrullus lanatus)
The coconut
White grapes
Black grapes
Peanuts
Litchis
The apple
'

and similar.

The Censor Bugbear site has close links to PRAAG.

http://www.censorbugbear.org/farmitracker/reports/view/1802

These are racists.

But that was for a completely different matter! That was to show the difference between Robben Island Prison and the motel Mandela lived in.

You have chopped up my earlier post to suit your own ends. You have conveniently ignored the statistics I posted; along with the reports written by Genocide Watch and the stats on Afrikaners.

Instead, you cry 'racism' by using one headline and poll. But tell me, how is racist to report when one specific ethnic group continuously targets another? By your logic, what Genocide Watch are doing is racist. What the UN are doing is racist. Read the sources and think again.

Bombs don't tend to discriminate. But they are a common feature in war.

What distinguishes Mandela's bombs from Obama's bombs, Churchill's bombs, Bush's bombs, etc.?

So it's a 'war' now?

Obama isn't bombing Washington. Churchill wasn't bombing London. You cannot use a World War and compare it to Mandela.

You forget that the biggest victims of the BOMBS and the NECKLACING and the CAMPS were BLACK AFRICANS, not white people. I would provide you with statistics, but as you don't seem to like reading them, I won't bother.

Clearly not, Mandela is dead and has been out of power for 15 years.

I was talking about the sixties! Did you even bother to read my sources?

I think I just answered my own question.

We can argue to the end and back. Bottom line is, my sources clearly show that Mandela ran camps and detonated bombs, directly or indirectly, he was the one calling the shots. Read the sources. Read the evidence from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Even the ANC don't deny their crimes, they just play them down.

No they don't, they want to talk about Mandela and how he is an inspiring figure.

I don't think they are particularly interested in South Africa.

Neither do I.

I think once the carnival dies things will be back to normal. There'll be minimal coverage here and there. The cameras will go home. The ANC will continue to rule. Carnage will continue.

There are parts of the world where crime is very high. I believe that West Papua has similar rape figures. Why? Because the Indonesian government tortured and murdered and annexed the country (formally Netherlands New Guinea) with the support of the Americans as part of a wider anti-Communist genocide endorsed by the American government.

Fifty years of apartheid - 7000 blacks died.

Post Apartheid - 376,627 dead and counting

You forget that the ANC were backed by the KGB and the IRA. This, again, is all in the books I posted about earlier. The ANC openly endorsed Communist expansion into Europe and were used by the KGB to spread the threat of revolution. They were in Rhodesia. They were in Namibia. It is hardly surprising that the Government tried to put them down.

Joe Slovo, leader of the SACP, once famously stated; 'Mandela went out a communist and came back an African Nationalist.'

When you have oppressive alien regimes, as the Indonesians were in East Timor and still are in West Papua, and the whites were in South Africa, then it's not going to be easy to transition to sunshine and lollipops.

This is the only thing you say that I agree with. You are right.

What you must consider, however, is that once racist regime has been replaced with another.

I think Mandela would be disappointed with the progress SA has made. I think Mandela did want to see an eventual union between the two races.

Nonetheless, it is hardly surprising that this is taking place when the same people who waged the 'war' are still heading up the nation.

If the 1976 Soweto massacre by gunshot of student protesters with a death toll of 176 (lowest figure that I could find so not to be accused of exaggeration) by the police had occurred in Britain, would there have been a similar outcry to that which then occurred in South Africa townships.

Soweto Revision Time.

The press would have you believe that it was a random massacre.

That isn't true.

Have you heard of Jaap Steyn?

He is a retired professor of linguistics and one of the greatest minds to come out of South Africa. He wrote a 500–page tome on Afrikaans entitled Tuiste in eie taal (At home in one’s own language).

The section on the Soweto riots contains some interesting facts

1) In only one of the seven Soweto schools protesting against Afrikaans as a medium of instruction in 1976 was the language used as such, and then only in one subject, History;

2) The English Academy of South Africa was waging a major campaign in black schools to get them to use English, whereas there was no such campaign by any Afrikaans organisation; unlike a small coterie of white English leftists in Cape Town, Johannesburg and Durban, blacks did not hate Afrikaans.

3) During a competition for school choirs in Soweto, twelve of the sixteen choirs in the senior division sang in Afrikaans and only four in English.

The ANC orchestrated the uprising - they admitted that to the Truth Commission in the late nineties.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The ANC orchestrated the uprising - they admitted that to the Truth Commission in the late nineties.

The ANC may well have orchestrated the student uprising. However, who was it who found it acceptable to fire live ammunition directly at the student protestors which led to the deaths of 176 students ?

 

[HST Power]

The ANC may well have orchestrated the student uprising. However, who was it who found it acceptable to fire live ammunition directly at the student protestors which led to the deaths of 176 students ?

The students were marching.

The Police arrived and watched, peacefully.

There were black policemen in the ranks, not just whites.

The students starting throwing stones.

This was 1973. No riot gear. No head gear. No bodily armour.

The Police tried to defend themselves by releasing their dogs.

The dogs were stoned.

The Police should have retreated. They should have never fired at children.

But they could either defend themselves or suffer the same fate as Dr Melville Edelstein, who had devoted his life to social welfare among blacks. He was stoned to death by the mob and left with a sign around his neck proclaiming 'Beware Afrikaners'.

edit - I should also add that the first shots were fired out of confusion. The Colonel who fired the first shot did it was a warning. He wasn't targeting students. That was then the firing started.

 

[Aldaniti]

Just four brief comments:

Apartheid was wrong, no, it was disgusting.

It isn't really possible to make critical comments about Nelson Mandela without being called a racist by those with white skin.

The problems of South Africa were as much to do with the threat of communism as they were apartheid.

HST Power seems to be simply offering a more balanced view of history than the agenda that the media, particularly the BBC, would like us to believe.

 

[Amberley54]

Just four brief comments:

Apartheid was wrong, no, it was disgusting.

It isn't really possible to make critical comments about Nelson Mandela without being called a racist by those with white skin.

The problems of South Africa were as much to do with the threat of communism as they were apartheid.

HST Power seems to be simply offering a more balanced view of history than the agenda that the media, particularly the BBC, would like us to believe.

Not just the BBC but the Windsors, nearly all current and recent heads of state and all mainstream political parties in the UK except for the swivel-eyed wing of the Tory party seem agree that he was a great force for truth, justice and reconciliation in South Africa.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The students starting throwing stones. This was 1973. No riot gear. No head gear. No bodily armour. The Police tried to defend themselves by releasing their dogs. The dogs were stoned. The Police should have retreated. They should have never fired at children.

There have been many instances in England where stones have been thrown at the lines of the police. How many of these events led to live ammunition being fired at the protesters ? Such events occurred in the inner-city town riots both in recent times and in the last thirty years.

Are you saying that tear gas was not in the stocks of the police arsenals at that time to be available for crowd dispersion purposes. I would ask if you have made an in-depth study of exactly what weaponry and other items of state protection were available in 1973. Shotguns were an integral part of the police armoury and were always available at all times of pubic order disturbances. That is why these shotguns were there at the time of the protest which led to the 176 deaths.

I am 68 years of age and have memories of world events that many of the young members of RailUK do not. Whilst I have suffered medical setbacks since 2012, my memory fortunately is not adversely affected. I consider myself to be of above-average intelligence with an IQ level of which I am justifiably proud and able to consider matters in a cold logical light rather than reacting in an inflammatory manner to postings.

To say that you are stating "Soweto revision time" in an earlier posting response to one of my postings shows that you feel that I am in need of education on this particular matter which is something that I feel is a direct insult of my intelligence.

 

[Aldaniti]

Not just the BBC but the Windsors, nearly all current and recent heads of state and all mainstream political parties in the UK except for the swivel-eyed wing of the Tory party seem agree that he was a great force for truth, justice and reconciliation in South Africa.

Of course he was, I didn't say otherwise.

 

[Oswyntail]

There have been many instances in England where stones have been thrown at the lines of the police. How many of these events led to live ammunition being fired at the protesters ? ....

Apart, of course, from in Northern Ireland? It is always possible to make a point by comparing two dissimilar situations, and the fact is that the traditional approach to authority, its use and reaction to it are some of the most telling differences between cultures. I do not know enough about the cultures of South Africa to know whether this is a pertinent comparison, but I suspect not.
That Mandela was a terrorist is without doubt. But, in my view, that makes his example the more powerful. He did not take the "martyrdom" way out, he did not come out spitting revenge, but instead tried to persuade everyone that co-operation and peaceful evolution was not only desirable but achievable. Compare that with our home-grown terrorists like Gerry Adams, or the mouthings of Al Q'Aeda. So far, in South Africa there has been a measure of success, and that must be, in part, down to the example and presence of Mandela. Now we must wait and see whether it can continue without him there.

 

[HST Power]

Not just the BBC but the Windsors, nearly all current and recent heads of state and all mainstream political parties in the UK except for the swivel-eyed wing of the Tory party seem agree that he was a great force for truth, justice and reconciliation in South Africa.

Again, nice sources.

The BBC, so neutral.

Speaking to supporters at the embassy, the BBC journalist quickly asserted that 'whites' were still in employment, prospering from the economy.

Perhaps he would like to come and meet my friends living in the Afrikaner squatter camps, suffering because of BEE.

I bet nobody knows what BEE is.

The problems of South Africa were as much to do with the threat of communism as they were apartheid.

It isn't really possible to make critical comments about Nelson Mandela without being called a racist by those with white skin.

HST Power seems to be simply offering a more balanced view of history than the agenda that the media, particularly the BBC, would like us to believe

Thank You.

I would like to have this quote blown up and stuck on the wall.

I am 68 years of age and have memories of world events that many of the young members of RailUK do not. Whilst I have suffered medical setbacks since 2012, my memory fortunately is not adversely affected. I consider myself to be of above-average intelligence with an IQ level of which I am justifiably proud and able to consider matters in a cold logical light rather than reacting in an inflammatory manner to postings.

To say that you are stating "Soweto revision time" in an earlier posting response to one of my postings shows that you feel that I am in need of education on this particular matter which is something that I feel is a direct insult of my intelligence.

Paul

The phrase 'Soweto Revision Time' was merely made in anticipation of the frequent myths and illogical truths printed about the uprising.

It is in no shape or form an attack on your intelligence.

We have been on this forum for many a year. Your posts are some of the most fluent and intellectual I have ever come across. We have often enjoyed a good relationship posting on this forum, and through our frequent quota of Private Messages, we have always taken a keen concern in each others affairs.

Your knowledge of maths and philosophy is beyond me. You got a First Class Degree in Maths. I (scraped) a C at GCSE.

In answer to your question.

The photographs of the police clearly show that they did not have armour or protection. Whether or not this was available I cannot tell you. But I can tell you that there was a genuine belief that the protesters would march on and slaughter whites in Johannesburg. I already told you about the innocents slaughtered in the slums. I had friends, many of whom I consider family, who would have been killed if they got through.

I do know that rubber bullets were only introduced in Ireland in 1970. Other devices such as tear gas are less difficult to trace, but the protection our armed forces currently enjoy (such as kevlar vests, introduced 1980) are relatively new inventions, at least after Soweto had taken place.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Apart, of course, from in Northern Ireland?

I very carefully went out of my way only to cite England in my posting which was exactly done to stop any Northern Ireland comparison, as that in itself would have opened the door to matters that the moderators have already taken action over yesterday by deleting postings that made reference to Northern Ireland on this very thread.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Paul, the phrase 'Soweto Revision Time' was merely made in anticipation of the frequent myths and illogical truths printed about the uprising. It is in no shape or form an attack on your intelligence.

I have read the above and have accepted your explanation. I thank you for making your posting reply (including other parts not stated above) and assure you that there is no ill feeling on my part whatsoever.

 

[soil]

Again, nice sources.

The BBC, so neutral.

Speaking to supporters at the embassy, the BBC journalist quickly asserted that 'whites' were still in employment, prospering from the economy.

Perhaps he would like to come and meet my friends living in the Afrikaner squatter camps, suffering because of BEE.

I bet nobody knows what BEE is.

You are conflating a whole mass of causes. The BBC is certainly institutionally left-wing, but the subject of this thread is not the BBC, it is the death of Nelson Mandela.

Further we do not need to consider, for example, the state of modern-day black America, to determine that William Wilberforce's fight against slavery was a noble cause.

You seem determined to simultaneously point the finger of blame at Mandela for every ill of modern South Africa, and yet when confronted with the sins of the apartheid regime, you try to minimise their wrongdoing, shifting blame away from the educated, supposedly civilized regime in power and onto the massed rioters.

Mandela's role as President and subsequent years is really beside the point, his place in history comes from his fight against apartheid.

And the time to consider the mess of modern South Africa is certainly not when the President from 14 years ago died.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Speaking to supporters at the embassy, the BBC journalist quickly asserted that 'whites' were still in employment, prospering from the economy.

Yet the SA Institute of Race Relations would agree with him. In 1994, only 10% of whites had any form of higher education. Now, it's almost 60%. Comparatively, only 14% of blacks have been enrolled for higher education. Only 5.7% of whites are unemployed (in Britain, this is 7.9%!), compared to 29% of blacks.

Professor Hermann Giliomee: “In 1994, 75% of the white population earning over R500 000 per year were formally employed, receiving salaries and bonuses.

“By 2009, this figure had been completely reversed and 75% of whites in this income category were self-employed, either as owners of a business or as consultants or agents.”

 

[HST Power]

Professor Hermann Giliomee: “In 1994, 75% of the white population earning over R500 000 per year were formally employed, receiving salaries and bonuses.

“By 2009, this figure had been completely reversed and 75% of whites in this income category were self-employed, either as owners of a business or as consultants or agents.”

You have just my proved my point exactly.

Most whites have gone into self employment and business ownership, because of the racial policies instigated by the ANC. This has caused a mass exodus of a vast majority of skilled whites. Those who stayed had no option - they could either start up in business themselves, or try to find a job in a system where many cannot get employed because they are white. The law does not allow it. You cannot have more white than you have black employees.

The national carrier, South African Airways, recently ran an advert for their trainee flyer programme, stating 'whites need not apply.'

Needless to say, no whites were taken on in the programme whatsoever.

Mangosuthu Buthelezi - Leader of the Inkatha Freedom Party
"The government's reckless implementation of the affirmative action policy is forcing many white people to leave the country in search of work, creating a skills shortage crisis"

Dr Desmond Tutu
"Black Economic Empowerment only serves a black ANC elite few, leaving millions in "dehumanising poverty"

In 1994, only 10% of whites had any form of higher education. Now, it's almost 60%. Comparatively, only 14% of blacks have been enrolled for higher education. Only 5.7% of whites are unemployed (in Britain, this is 7.9%!), compared to 29% of blacks.

You are right about education - there has been a large increase in the number of Africans, black and white alike, writing metric and passing their classes. But this is of no consequence if the economic policies are already skewed in favour of one select black elite.

You are conflating a whole mass of causes. The BBC is certainly institutionally left-wing, but the subject of this thread is not the BBC, it is the death of Nelson Mandela.

And the time to consider the mess of modern South Africa is certainly not when the President from 14 years ago died.

Their should be a balanced representation, not a one sided onslaught.

You seem determined to simultaneously point the finger of blame at Mandela for every ill of modern South Africa, and yet when confronted with the sins of the apartheid regime, you try to minimise their wrongdoing, shifting blame away from the educated, supposedly civilized regime in power and onto the massed rioters.

I have clearly shown through hard evidence why the Apartheid regime carried out their actions. I am not justifying a system of racial segregation, rather, I am trying to show why certain events and ordeals took place, as opposed to the biased trash churned out by the press.

A regime who butchered their own people, setting off bombs, putting them in camps, necklacing them in the streets and killing them because they broke the 'vow of silence' beheld in the ANC have absolutely no place running a country.

As I have stated, I think Mandela did want a union between the two races.

But you reap what you sow.

The same criminals who did said crimes were welcomed into Mandela's arms. They got positions in high office. They got rich.

The country suffers because of it.

They are to blame. It's a fact.

 

[tony_mac]

The national carrier, South African Airways, recently ran an advert for their trainee flyer programme, stating 'whites need not apply.'

Needless to say, no whites were taken on in the programme whatsoever.

If you are going to claim facts, it is best to say where they came from - or how can people accept them as facts when they may just be copy-and-pasted from unreliable sources?

And, in fact this one isn't true - 7 out of 40 people accepted this year were white. The existing pilot base is 85% white, so it's hardly a powerful example demonstrating that people 'cannot get employed because they are white'.

SAA acknowledges that a multi-stage online application system put in place had an unintended consequence of excluding certain applications based on the category of applicants. Once that was noted, SAA acted swiftly and the situation was corrected.

In line with SAA’s transformation strategy which is informed by BB-BEE Aviation Sector Charter, when assessing all applications, SAA continues to give preference to previously disadvantaged groups i.e. Africans, Coloureds, Indians and white female.

http://www.givengain.com/cgi-bin/giga.cgi?cmd=cause_dir_news_item&cause_id=2137&news_id=117796&cat_id=1596
http://www.flysaa.com/za/en/flyingSAA/News/SAAs-Cadet-Pilot-Development-Programme-The-facts.html

 

[meridian2]

Just four brief comments:

Apartheid was wrong, no, it was disgusting.

It isn't really possible to make critical comments about Nelson Mandela without being called a racist by those with white skin.

The problems of South Africa were as much to do with the threat of communism as they were apartheid.

HST Power seems to be simply offering a more balanced view of history than the agenda that the media, particularly the BBC, would like us to believe.

Well I'm afraid history has been able to make critical comments about Mandela without reprisal or being called 'racist'. 'A more balanced view' is your opinion, but his view sadly sounds like, or at least has the rumblings of, the same dogmatic propaganda from people who are determined to ignore the one pinnacle achievement Mandela made on the people of SA and focus on events which they, misguidedly, say happened or would've happened in spite of him.

 

[HST Power]

If you are going to claim facts, it is best to say where they came from - or how can people accept them as facts when they may just be copy-and-pasted from unreliable sources?

And, in fact this one isn't true - 7 out of 40 people accepted this year were white. The existing pilot base is 85% white, so it's hardly a powerful example demonstrating that people 'cannot get employed because they are white'.

http://www.givengain.com/cgi-bin/giga.cgi?cmd=cause_dir_news_item&cause_id=2137&news_id=117796&cat_id=1596
http://www.flysaa.com/za/en/flyingSAA/News/SAAs-Cadet-Pilot-Development-Programme-The-facts.html

I have sourced more or less all of the claims I have made in this thread; these were not from 'unreliable' sources, they were from international authorities, apartheid prisoners, Afrikaner academics and political commentators.

If you want further verification for any event or circumstance then get in touch and you can have it. Nonetheless, I think it is unfair to shoot me down based on the fact that I didn't source one particular claim.

However, it would appear that I did make an omission in the original post; I should have stated white men, not whites generally. The 7 taken on, which you were right about, were all women.

SA: Statement by the FW de Klerk Foundation, on South Africa Airways' decision not to appoint any white male trainee pilots (13/06/2013)

In August last year, the South African Airways (SAA) lifted a ban on all applications from white males for its Cadet Pilot Development Programme. When the matter initially came to light Kabelo Ledwaba - then spokesperson for SAA - stated that the Cadet Programme was advertised as an initiative to bring the demographics of SAA’s pilots in line with the demographics of South Africa.

SAA has now stated that the final 40 candidates for the 2013 intake fall under the category of previously disadvantaged individuals as defined in the Employment Equity Act - and that not a single white man has been selected for the cadet programme. The group reportedly consists of 10 black men, four black women, nine coloured men, one coloured woman, seven Indian men, two Indian women and seven white women.

In essence, it would appear that the ban on the employment of white male trainee pilots has not been lifted in practice.

According to SAA spokesman Tlali Tlali, "it is important to note this in the context of the current reality and measures that need to be taken". Tlali further stated that "the cadet programme is the airline's effort to transform not only its own but also the country's flight deck community, which is nowhere close to reflecting the country's demographics".

We may assume that as a state-owned enterprise, the SAA’s management believes that it should apply the basic values and principles governing public administration in section 195 of the Constitution. In terms of sub-section 195 (1)(i) "Public administration must be broadly representative of the South African people, with employment and personnel practices based on ability, objectivity, fairness and the need to redress the imbalances of the past to achieve broad representation."

It is understandable that SAA should want to progress towards a situation in which its flight decks are more broadly representatives of the demographics of the country. However, in doing so it should bear the following factors in mind:

It must ensure that 'ability' (as required in section 195 (1)(i) of the Constitution) is given sufficient weighting in its employment decisions. The relative aptitude, ability and qualifications of applicants must play a central role in SAA’s employment decisions - regardless of race or gender. Its first requirement must be the appointment of excellent pilots irrespective of their race; the second requirement is to promote demographic representation.
SAA must also bear in mind the need for 'fairness' - also listed in sub-section 195 (1)(i). It must consider the prohibition against unfair discrimination, inter alia on the grounds of race and gender in section 9(4) of the Constitution and the requirement to prove, in terms of section 9(5), that each instance of discrimination is fair.

The airline must also consider section 16(4) of the Employment Equity Act which states that designated employers "are not required to take any decision concerning employment policy or practice that would establish an absolute barrier to the prospective or continued employment of people whether or not they are from designated groups" - or as Solidarity puts it, they should not be perceived to be "an absolute barrier carrier".

Finally, and purely from a marketing and public relations point of view, SAA would also do well to remember that white males are demographically over-represented among its loyal customers and ticket-buying passengers.
South Africa belongs to all who live in it, united in our diversity, regardless of our race or gender. In our understandable and necessary efforts to promote equality and more representative public institutions we should not forget the foundational value of non-racialism.

So in essence, what SAA did is still discrimination.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I have sourced more or less all of the claims I have made in this thread; these were not from 'unreliable' sources, they were from international authorities, apartheid prisoners, Afrikaner academics and political commentators.

Last Saturday, Dr Kooj Malan stated that the Afrikaner academics had flatly rejected the claims by Martinus van Schalkwyk, the leader of the New National Party that they had called on the government not to prosecute the culprits who were responsible for the Soweto bomb blasts.

 

[flymo]

Whichever way anyone looks at it, a whole load of wrong went on many, many years ago on all sides and I include the late Mr. Mandela here. He was no saint. This wrong was furthered with more wrong, followed by extended wrong before someone decided that enough was enough.

That brings us today where, whatever happens, I just hope that the world tomorrow is a more safer place than today and people will talk to each other more without killing each other.

You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.

There is a song in there somewhere....

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Whichever way anyone looks at it, a whole load of wrong went on many, many years ago on all sides and I include the late Mr. Mandela here. He was no saint. This wrong was furthered with more wrong, followed by extended wrong before someone decided that enough was enough.

That brings us today where, whatever happens, I just hope that the world tomorrow is a more safer place than today and people will talk to each other more without killing each other.

You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.

There is a song in there somewhere....

Why did you have to ruin such a wonderful post with a reference to that song?

 

[fowler9]

Our own glorious leader was part of that Hang Nelson Mandela campaign and went on an all expenses paid trip to South Africa to look at stopping sanctions because of apartheid. One mans freedom fighter is another man terrorist. Cameron is just in it for himself though.