Nelson Mandela has died

[flymo]

Why did you have to ruin such a wonderful post with a reference to that song?

Sorry sir, can't Imagine why.. Just a nice song that's all ...

 

[table38]

Our own glorious leader was part of that Hang Nelson Mandela campaign and went on an all expenses paid trip to South Africa to look at stopping sanctions because of apartheid. One mans freedom fighter is another man terrorist. Cameron is just in it for himself though.

Sorry to let the facts get in the way of a good rant, but "that Hang Nelson Mandela campaign" was 28 years ago in 1985 when Cameron was 19, and evidently took little interest in politics, let alone being a member of the Federation of Conservative Students (an organisation so extreme it was shut down by none other than Norman Tebbit one year later in 1986 )

 

[Oswyntail]

Our own glorious leader was part of that Hang Nelson Mandela campaign and went on an all expenses paid trip to South Africa to look at stopping sanctions because of apartheid. One mans freedom fighter is another man terrorist. Cameron is just in it for himself though.

Sorry to let the facts get in the way of a good rant, but "that Hang Nelson Mandela campaign" was 28 years ago in 1985 when Cameron was 19, and evidently took little interest in politics, let alone being a member of the Federation of Conservative Students (an organisation so extreme it was shut down by none other than Norman Tebbit one year later in 1986 )

Well said that man. A few facts are always worth digging out. (Cameron only started at university in October 85)
As for the "all expenses paid" trip (interesting detail that - I wonder why it is relevant) it is usually described as a "fact finding" trip. So it is quite possible that, having seen the facts for himself, Cameron was, as he always claims, influenced by Mandela.
What really amuses/sickens me about this, and the similar memes floating round on the web, not to mention the speech by Peter Hain, is how they all seem to invoke fictitious or distorted history to make a point about the Tories. Mandela (and Thatcher, though one daren't really mention her) realised that the best way to stimulate change for the better is to work with people, not try to batter them. Co-operation and finding acceptable common ground as starting points were what brought down apartheid. The posters of these memes do not seem to have grasped this. (It's too late for Hain)

 

[DarloRich]

Well said that man. A few facts are always worth digging out. (Cameron only started at university in October 85)
As for the "all expenses paid" trip (interesting detail that - I wonder why it is relevant) it is usually described as a "fact finding" trip. So it is quite possible that, having seen the facts for himself, Cameron was, as he always claims, influenced by Mandela.
What really amuses/sickens me about this, and the similar memes floating round on the web, not to mention the speech by Peter Hain, is how they all seem to invoke fictitious or distorted history to make a point about the Tories. Mandela (and Thatcher, though one daren't really mention her) realised that the best way to stimulate change for the better is to work with people, not try to batter them. Co-operation and finding acceptable common ground as starting points were what brought down apartheid. The posters of these memes do not seem to have grasped this. (It's too late for Hain)

Without wishing to derail the thread any further Thatcher could hardly be said to have personified the above highlighted text!

 

[table38]

Without wishing to derail the thread any further Thatcher could hardly be said to have personified the above highlighted text!

The attached letter is perhaps a useful historical insight into what was actually happening back in those days.

 

[fowler9]

Well said that man. A few facts are always worth digging out. (Cameron only started at university in October 85)
As for the "all expenses paid" trip (interesting detail that - I wonder why it is relevant) it is usually described as a "fact finding" trip. So it is quite possible that, having seen the facts for himself, Cameron was, as he always claims, influenced by Mandela.
What really amuses/sickens me about this, and the similar memes floating round on the web, not to mention the speech by Peter Hain, is how they all seem to invoke fictitious or distorted history to make a point about the Tories. Mandela (and Thatcher, though one daren't really mention her) realised that the best way to stimulate change for the better is to work with people, not try to batter them. Co-operation and finding acceptable common ground as starting points were what brought down apartheid. The posters of these memes do not seem to have grasped this. (It's too late for Hain)

From what I can tell via the gift of google it is hard to find evidence that he was invlolved in the Hang Nelson Mandela campaign but that he most definitely was on an all expenses paid fact finding mission to stop sanctions. And that was from a right wing website.

 

[DarloRich]

The attached letter is perhaps a useful historical insight into what was actually happening back in those days.

Sorry my point was not strictly to do with Mandela. It was more general, in particular with regard to domestic affairs.

I have read that ( or a similar) letter before and it contains very sensible advice, in particular relating to sanctions. It shows the "act" Prime Minsters often have to go through while undertaking different "back channel" activities.

It doesn't make up for her other issues though!

 

[table38]

From what I can tell via the gift of google it is hard to find evidence that he was invlolved in the Hang Nelson Mandela campaign but that he most definitely was on an all expenses paid fact finding mission to stop sanctions. And that was from a right wing website.

But significant that, whilst in SA 24 years ago in 1989, Cameron also met with anti-apartheid campaigners, and met opposition politicians including Zeth Mothopeng, the head of the PAC, union leaders and was shown around mines.

Perhaps, rather than staying at home and pontificating, Cameron's fact finding trip led him to a more informed view of the situation and a new approach:

In 2006, shortly after becoming Tory leader, Mr Cameron tried to make amends for his party's record on South Africa by visiting Nelson Mandela, by then President, at the same time as suggesting the party's policy from the 1980s was from another era that he did not belong to. He said at the time: "The mistakes my party made in the past with respect to relations with the African National Congress and sanctions on South Africa make it all the more important to listen now.

The fact that there is so much to celebrate in the new South Africa is not in spite of Mandela and the ANC; it is because of them – and we Conservatives should say so clearly today."

 

[fowler9]

But significant that, whilst in SA 24 years ago in 1989, Cameron also met with anti-apartheid campaigners, and met opposition politicians including Zeth Mothopeng, the head of the PAC, union leaders and was shown around mines.

Perhaps, rather than staying at home and pontificating, Cameron's fact finding trip led him to a more informed view of the situation and a new approach:

Well I can't really argue with what he said there. I would struggle to reconcile it with what he is actually doing but that is by the by.

 

[Butts]

After watching "Question Time" from Johannesburg on Thursday Night, it was amazing to realise for all it's faults the UK is positively progressive in comparison.

Mind you the guy with the "Red Beret" was quite amusing

The real question is whether the current economic stagnation and poverty was a price worth paying for a bloodless transition of power.

One thing for certain the poor are now becoming worse off than they were under apartheid-economically at least.

The new Black Middle Class has pulled the ladder up after them.

It seems greed and corruption are truly colour blind

 

[Monty]

The new Black Middle Class has pulled the ladder up after them.

It seems greed and corruption are truly colour blind

Unfortunately it's not a problem unique to South Africa, infact all of the continent suffers from it. Independence was granted far too quickly to some nations in Africa, many where just not ready to govern themselves properly. In some cases we left people no better than Hitler in charge when we withdrew, tribal warfare quickly resumed and what we have now is a situation where if you are not a member of the right tribe in the right part of the country your a nobody, sub-human.

It's yet another huge black mark on our history and it's not going to get any better while we waste our time in Afghanistan chasing ghosts and do not accept the fact we as a nation have certian responsibilities in Africa. The ironic thing is, with the rise of Islamic extremism in the continent if we focus our efforts there to make the place stable our own security concerns would improve drastically.

 

[HST Power]

Mind you the guy with the "Red Beret" was quite amusing

One thing for certain the poor are now becoming worse off than they were under apartheid-economically at least.

I didn't watch it, but the 'Red Beret' guy would have been a member of the Economic Freedom Fighters, led by Julius Malema. Just wait until this guy gets into power; he wants to embark on a 'radical, leftist, Marxist-Leninist' programme of nationalisation.

See what the experts to say about Malema's plans for the new South Africa.

This is the same Malema who is yet to stand trial for fraud and racketeering. He was expelled from the ANC, and he also sang 'Shoot the Boer'.

His catch all policy? Forcibly remove white farmers from their land, with no compensation.

God help us.

 

[Butts]

I didn't watch it, but the 'Red Beret' guy would have been a member of the Economic Freedom Fighters, led by Julius Malema. Just wait until this guy gets into power; he wants to embark on a 'radical, leftist, Marxist-Leninist' programme of nationalisation.

See what the experts to say about Malema's plans for the new South Africa.

This is the same Malema who is yet to stand trial for fraud and racketeering. He was expelled from the ANC, and he also sang 'Shoot the Boer'.

His catch all policy? Forcibly remove white farmers from their land, with no compensation.

God help us.

Well he is a fan of Robert Mugabe - so that may be a portent of "trouble ahead"

 

[jon0844]

It's a shame the current state and the future state of Africa is so readily ignored by people who preferred to simply attack Cameron, or Obama in the case of the Americans, for a disrespectful selfie that has, in itself, been explained here...

http://blogs.afp.com/correspondent/?post/Selfie

...long after the press, the web, and social media all got their boot in.

Some comments are from sections of the media now trying to get an interview and find out more about the 'truth', long after they'd already written their own politically motivated interpretation of photo.

And with the way the Internet works, all of these lies and misinterpretations and stories on blogs with agendas will remain archived for decades and become the new truth. It worries me that we're able to record and document almost everything, yet we're still going to have future generations that will never actually know the truth about loads of things because it has never been easier to spread propaganda.

 

[Butts]

The highlight of Butts visit to The Republic of South Africa was The Smoking Lounge at Oliver Tambo Airport .....an excellent establishment all decked out in black marble and glass with big sofas.

When I was in Pretoria it was really surreal as I felt as Bernard Manning would have said "a spot on a domino". Seriously I was often the only blanc in site. However everyone was really friendly and welcoming especially the guys offering hookers on very street corner. Failing that there was an abundance of vendors with little trays with single cigarettes and sweets on.

I remember going to Pretoria Zoo which still had the fading Royal Coat of Arms over it's entrance - George V as I recall. Even as I approached the CBD the absence of fellow whites was quite disconcerting, lord knows where they all were.

Mind you when I told the armed Security Guard at the Holiday Inn I intended to walk into town he did give me a wry look somewhat akin to doubting my sanity. (not the first person to do that )

In Johannesburg we were dropped off at a big Shopping centre ( forget the name) and told not to venture out of it. That could have been anywhere in the world. I did have a brief glance outside it's precincts only to confronted by a gentleman "having a dump" in the middle of the bus station - hey live and let live - it could have been Darlington

Cape Town by contrast was very cosmopolitan , almost European, with a plethora of races all mixing freely. Table Mountain was fantastic - the view from it's summit breath taking. There was still an undercurrent of racism if you dug a bit deeper, especially among the poor whites. More covert than overt - a bit like the UK ? Believe it or not there were posters everywhere advertising the imminent arrival of Trinny and Susannah

I went on a trip to Robben Island which was quite enlightening and a reminder of the nations recent grim past. I also visited a township which was an eye opener, poverty but a bar on every corner (Darlington again !!). They have certainly perfected the art of how to "skim you" on the way round - almost exit via the gift shop.

Butts flew on Air France from Edinburgh via Paris CDG (manky smoking lounge).

 

[Oswyntail]

......
It's yet another huge black mark on our history and it's not going to get any better while we waste our time in Afghanistan chasing ghosts and do not accept the fact we as a nation have certain responsibilities in Africa.

OK, while accepting the fact that some colonial administrations were not perfect, even by the standards of the day, we did a darned sight better for Africa than the Belgians, Portuguese, French and Germans. We largely put in place the mechanisms for efficient governance, and, where they have remained the country is relatively stable. So when can we start to say our responsibility has been discharged? Or are we going to be lumbered with being the excuse for national inefficiency throughout sub-Saharan Africa as long as we exist?

......The ironic thing is, with the rise of Islamic extremism in the continent if we focus our efforts there to make the place stable our own security concerns would improve drastically.

Really? Do we really want to give Islamic extremists yet another excuse to involve us in jihad? Is it not possible that letting the jihadists get sucked in to all the messily tribal conflicts might actually benefit us by distracting their efforts?

 

[Johnuk123]

These are the figures for how many staff were sent to this event by UK broadcasters.

Sky - 15, ITV - 9, CH.5 - 4, CH.4 - 9,

BBC - 140

What a staggering waste of licence payers money but entirely in keeping with this organisations policy of complete disregard of any form of prudence.

 

[Butts]

These are the figures for how many staff were sent to this event by UK broadcasters.

Sky - 15, ITV - 9, CH.5 - 4, CH.4 - 9,

BBC - 140

What a staggering waste of licence payers money but entirely in keeping with this organisations policy of complete disregard of any form of prudence.

BBC -" You make it what it is"

As The Worlds premier broadcaster I would expect nothing less. It may have escaped your attention but the licence fee has been ludicrously frozen for the last few years.

Despite this the BBC remains head and shoulders above any of the contemporaries you mention, indeed it has ten times as many outlets as SKY and is at least 100 times better

 

[Johnuk123]

BBC -" You make it what it is"

As The Worlds premier broadcaster I would expect nothing less. It may have escaped your attention but the licence fee has been ludicrously frozen for the last few years.

Despite this the BBC remains head and shoulders above any of the contemporaries you mention, indeed it has ten times as many outlets as SKY and is at least 100 times better

If you believe that the organisation is free to waste money like it's going out of fashion why not send it a few quid.

By the way Sky News and Sky Sports are far far better in all aspects than the BBC and the difference being you aren't forced by law to subscribe.

 

[Butts]

If you believe that the organisation is free to waste money like it's going out of fashion why not send it a few quid.

By the way Sky News and Sky Sports are far far better in all aspects than the BBC and the difference being you aren't forced by law to subscribe.

Question Time came from South Africa - contrary to popular opinion David Dimbleby does not operate the cameras, work the sound booms etc as well as presenting the programme :roll:

If you think Sky News is better than BBC News (or C4 come to that) in both depth, coverage and variety of sources and outlets then all I can say is your requirements are not very demanding. Most of it is tabloid pap.

With regard to Sport if you enjoy programmes fractured by commercial breaks then fair play to you.

If we were not forced to subscribe you would be left with an intellectual vacuum in broadcasting that may appeal to you, but I don't think everyone.

 

[table38]

If we were not forced to subscribe you would be left with an intellectual vacuum in broadcasting that may appeal to you, but I don't think everyone.

Do we have an intellectual vaccum in the rest of the media, where there is no compulsion to subscribe?

 

[Antman]

I don't wish to offend anybody but I was totally unmoved by the passing of Nelson Mandella, he was 95 years old and in poor health so it was hardly a shock.

Like many others I question why the BBC had to devote an entire news bulletin to it and totally ignore the fact that the east coast of the UK was being hit by the biggest tidal surge in 60 years.

 

[Butts]

Do we have an intellectual vaccum in the rest of the media, where there is no compulsion to subscribe?

Touche....

Arguably, many may view that to be the case if considering newspapers for example with the exception of a few titles.

Most quality involves a purchase at some stage.

If you consider the cost of a Sky package with the cost of a Licence Fee I believe the latter provides much better value for money overall.

Without it look across The Atlantic , poor old PBS hobbles on doing it's best.

Take the BBC out and it would be like removing Libraries , it may save money but at what cost in terms of cultural enhancement.

 

[table38]

If you consider the cost of a Sky package with the cost of a Licence Fee I believe the latter provides much better value for money overall.

Agreed, but there is at least the element of choice with Sky

Imagine a world where I had to pay the Daily Mail first before I could read any other newspaper!

 

[Butts]

Agreed, but there is at least the element of choice with Sky

Imagine a world where I had to pay the Daily Mail first before I could read any other newspaper!

ITV is the Daily Mail, SKY the Sun, Channel 4 The Guardian and BBC The Independent.

Having said that I would happily read any of the above but only pay for the last two

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Never thought I would be agreeing with Butts. Must be a Christmas miracle!

 

[Butts]

Never thought I would be agreeing with Butts. Must be a Christmas miracle!

Now, now Ralph calm down - if I didn't know you better I'd take that as an insult !!

Don't worry hostilities will be quickly resumed when I make some inane comment about smoking

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Like many others I question why the BBC had to devote an entire news bulletin to it and totally ignore the fact that the east coast of the UK was being hit by the biggest tidal surge in 60 years.

Perhaps if Thames barrier had failed and areas of central London had been inundated you might have seen a different approach..:roll:

 

[jon0844]

The autumn statement and bad weather did quickly go from being constantly talked about to disappearing completely.

 

[Butts]

I don't wish to offend anybody but I was totally unmoved by the passing of Nelson Mandella, he was 95 years old and in poor health so it was hardly a shock.

Like many others I question why the BBC had to devote an entire news bulletin to it and totally ignore the fact that the east coast of the UK was being hit by the biggest tidal surge in 60 years.

If there had been a large loss of life coverage may have been different - aka the 1950's events.

Worldwide news sometimes takes precedence over domestic matters - it's not every day someone like Mandela dies. People were even moaning about programmes being interrupted to relay the news.

At least today there are far more media outlets than in the 50's - virtually radio and newsreels was all that existed. I'm sure some channel somewhere was reporting on the floods.