National Service

[deltic1989]

In the wake of the riots that have been going on in England over the last few days there have been grumlings that we have lost a generation to violence and anger. Some have said that bringing back National Service may solve a few issues of the 'disrespectful youth of today'. I have to say that I tend to agree with this, I did 4 1/2 years in the Navy and I think it turned my life around, when I left school I will admit to being a bit of a rouge and regularly got a ticking off from the local Constable, since serving in the Navy the only contact ive had with the Police was when i had a tail light out. In my opinion 2 years in the forces would give the people that cause trouble out of boredom a constructive outlet for thier pent up anger. I'm not trying to suggest compulsary service for young people of a certain age, but using military service as an alternative to custody, then the offender may acctually learn something worthwile, rather than going to prison where they learn very little if the figures on re-offending are anything to go by. I belive there is a similar system in the United States which seems o work rather well.
I don't know if there are any Gentlemen here that are of an age to remember or have taken part in National Service but if there are, do you think it changed anything? Was the British youth any better off for having done it?
Everyones opinion would be very interesting to hear.

 

[DarloRich]

But do the armed forces want "pressed" men? Can we afford it?

Whenever I speak to friends of mine who serve in the forces they always say they dont want conscription. They feel they get better results by having only volunteers as the people who volunteer WANT to be there rather than are MADE to be there

 

[Hydro]

I don't particularly want a professional military having convicted criminals in the ranks as an alternative to prison.

I believe a good proportion of the professionalism of the modern British military (and what contributes to it's ability to continually punch above it's weight) is that those who serve want to serve. National Service didn't straighten everybody out. How many of the old London villains autobiographies include the obligatory "How we punched the Sergeant on the first day and spent all of our National Service in the glasshouse" chapter? Certainly Ronnie Kray was fairly proud of it.

 

[ainsworth74]

A few thoughts and issues. Firstly cost, this is going to cost money and a lot of it, defense budgets are shrinking with no sign of it leveling out any time soon. The army itself is being shrunk to it's lowest level in the last 100+ years so to bring in conscripts will require a reversal of this policy for a start. So how do we pay for all this extra training (not sure how much slack there is in our existing train facilites so might need more) and also pay for any extra equipment required to actually arm these conscripts.

Secondly, the army isn't going to like it. The army is a small highly professional force staffed by motivated volunteers. It isn't going to want to screw that up by putting people who either don't want to be there (if we go for a full scale draft at 18) or by people whose choice was either prison or the army into it's various units as again they are either not going to really want to be there or are just going to make sure they spend there time in jail anyway.

Could it have some benefits? Perhaps but I'm not convinced that it's something we should be pursing, the army isn't a silver bullet to fix societies ills like some seem to think (I still can't quite get believe how many people were demanding that we deploy combat troops onto the street of London as if that would sort all the problems out immediately).

 

[Greenback]

I don't see why National Service has to be based on the army. Or involve military style training.

I can see some benefit in the idea that young men and women should spend a compulsory period of time in a disciplined environment learning skills that will be useful in later life. Such a place used to be called school!

It might be worth thinking about introducing training centres, with military style discipline, but not run by the military, where teamworking is paramount. This will teach respect for yourself and others as well as some practical manual skills such as basic plumbing, electrical or building maintenance work. Perhaps it could be called national training instead as well?

 

[deltic1989]

That's a good idea greenback. As for the other comments I see where you are coming from and know that professional armed forces personel may object to conscription, I can see the disadvantages but also there could be advantages. There are a lot of young people who hang around on street corners acting like a big man, a spell in a diciplined environment, like what Greenback discribes or in the armed services may serve to show these people what being a man is all about. Most of us learn these skills from our family or from school without the need for someone screaming at us but with some people military style dicipline may be the only way to get through to them. Maybe as apposed to sending people to the armed forces as opposed to prison is a bad idea but offering the ones that are repentant the opportunity to serve the people they have wronged and make a career out of it may work, rather than a compulsary draft it would be an option with goals they have to meet, and a sense of purpose.

 

[Mojo]

No. Why should well behaved children and young people, who are taught well by their parents and understand their rights and responsibilities have to go through such a thing?

 

[passmore]

No. Why should well behaved children and young people, who are taught well by their parents and understand their rights and responsibilities have to go through such a thing?

Because even well-behaved children from a well-disciplined family sometimes misbehave. National Service, on the other hand, was never designed to take away the familial values of parental responsibilities.

I never did National Service as I was on an apprenticeship with my dad's firm but I firmly believe that it's existence taught children the rights and wrongs of life and prepared them for the future. It instilled in them a certain degree of self-discipline.

 

[valenta]

No. Why should well behaved children and young people, who are taught well by their parents and understand their rights and responsibilities have to go through such a thing?

Precisely my thinking. I think that compulsory national service is, for want of a better word, outdated now. I think better ways of punishment need to be thought up, and yes, why should all young people go through that when it is a minority who have no respect for the law.

 

[Minilad]

I wondered how long it would be before this old chestnut reared its head !

 

[WestCoast]

Interestingly, Germany has just scrapped "national service" or "conscription" for male citizens (it was never required for females).

It wasn't necessarily the military and you only had to do it if you were called (a certain % were every year). You could opt for Military Service (Armed Forces training) where you got a basic rate of pay, Civil Protection (disaster relief/volunteer emergency services), or if you stated a conscientious objection you could perform Civilian Service (working in for example, a hospital, rehab clinic, or care home). All lasted the same amount of time, around six months.

A similar thing still happens in Switzerland and Austria I believe.

I am not sure whether I agree with it or disagree, but the general opinion, at least in Germany, was that it was an anarchism, although most admitted it did provide something to cater for everyone.

 

[codenamecuebal]

As part of the youth, I say: no.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I don't think everyone should be forced to do it, but I think a better option for school leavers would be go to college/university, get a self supporting job within a set period and for a set time, or sign up. Whilst the cost of the military (or whatever) would go up, the cost of housing the 'wasters' and the benefits and court time they chew up would be reduced.

 

[Greenback]

No. Why should well behaved children and young people, who are taught well by their parents and understand their rights and responsibilities have to go through such a thing?

Why shouldn't they? National Service in the military was never intended as a punishment, though it may have been seen as one by those conscripted!

I don't agree with traditional style National Service, my idea is more along the lines of it being an alternative option for post 16 education. More disciplined than a college certainly, but also more rewarding for those who will learn a range of useful skills.

Precisely my thinking. I think that compulsory national service is, for want of a better word, outdated now. I think better ways of punishment need to be thought up, and yes, why should all young people go through that when it is a minority who have no respect for the law.

See above re punishment! Yes, the traditional model is an outdated one. We would need to update it.

It wasn't necessarily the military and you only had to do it if you were called (a certain % were every year). You could opt for Military Service (Armed Forces training) where you got a basic rate of pay, Civil Protection (disaster relief/volunteer emergency services), or if you stated a conscientious objection you could perform Civilian Service (working in for example, a hospital, rehab clinic, or care home). All lasted the same amount of time, around six months.

A similar thing still happens in Switzerland and Austria I believe.

I am not sure whether I agree with it or disagree, but the general opinion, at least in Germany, was that it was an anarchism, although most admitted it did provide something to cater for everyone.

It would be important to provide a wide range of activities, from orienteering and abseiling type outdoor activities, through to more technical skills.

I think that 16 year olds would have a choice of either starting a traditional apprenticeship, attending a college, or enrolling with National Training.

Yes, it would cost money, but the benefits could potentially be huge.

 

[SS4]

A quick poll for those who voted it should return - would you have to do it yourself?

I myself wouldn't think it too bad, especially if it provided a wide range of activities such as those Greenback mentioned in his previous post. I still remember fondly on doing orienteering, especially at night!

Before it was reintroduced we'd have to ask ourselves what we'd hope to gain from it IMO. Would it solve the situation we're in where skilled workers cannot get a job because there are too many applicants chasing each vacancy? Or the fact that employers look for work experience over skills? As long as you talk about it only for unemployed youth then it will be seen as punishment, especially with the riots as a backdrop, ministers would need to get employers to change their attitudes

 

[deltic1989]

Well I'm 22 and with the original model young men were drafted from 18 to late 20's, so yes i would have to do it at some point if if it was re-implimented, had I not already served 4 1/2 years in the Navy.

 

[eMeS]

I did my National Service from 1957-1959, and thus have first hand experience of what is being discussed - except that I expect the National Service being discussed here implies service in the Army. Mine was in the RAF.

Being trained on how to survive a gas attack was no joke; and on their measurements, I became less fit after 8 weeks of their basic training at RAF West Kirby. (All the 62 other new entrants gained in fitness.) My unprotected ears suffered massively from Lee-Enfield rifle practice with us shooting from between close brick walls - provided so that we couldn't easily shoot our mates. Bren gun shooting was much easier on the ears.

I then underwent 9 months of radar training at RAF Locking, and then did a year in West Germany. Fortunately one of my friends had a car - a Morris Minor, and we saw something of Germany - Hanover, Goslar & Gottingen areas, and even a weekend to Luxembourg.

Do I think something similar would help sort out today's trouble makers? Not sure, but I think it could easily make the self-important types and bullies cry.

 

[passmore]

Precisely my thinking. I think that compulsory national service is, for want of a better word, outdated now. I think better ways of punishment need to be thought up, and yes, why should all young people go through that when it is a minority who have no respect for the law.

Because National Service was never meant to be a form of punishment, just a way for young people to come of age properly by teaching them core values through a taster of military service.

 

[eMeS]

Because National Service was never meant to be a form of punishment, just a way for young people to come of age properly by teaching them core values through a taster of military service.

Can I assume from what you've written that you haven't experienced National Service?

I have, and I don't consider the pathetic language skills of the Drill and other Instructors I encountered to be worthy "core values".

 

[Oswyntail]

Because National Service was never meant to be a form of punishment, just a way for young people to come of age properly by teaching them core values through a taster of military service.

Not to mention having the basis of a larger armed force in case of war with Russia. And, lest we forget, it was the "National Service" generation that really started the ball rolling with the laissez-faire economic and social policies of the sixties which have contributed to the mess we are in today. It is by no means the perfect solution that the rose-tinted glasses seem to suggest. Better would be a properly structured national apprenticeship scheme,IMHO.

 

[passmore]

Can I assume from what you've written that you haven't experienced National Service?

I have, and I don't consider the pathetic language skills of the Drill and other Instructors I encountered to be worthy "core values".

Different strokes I'm afraid.

I have categorically stated that I didn't participate having got an apprenticeship at my dad's firm in North London when i finished school. I am only speaking from second-hand experience.

 

[talltim]

I never understood why anyone would think that a solution for violent youths would be to train them to be better fighters?

 

[Greenback]

Neither have I! I should make clear that I am not at all in favour of the traditional idea of National Service. The armed forces do not want to have to waste their time looking after a bunch of unwilling conspricts - they have more than enought o do at the moment as it is!

My idea of a modern, 21st century scheme would be a sort of cross between a Duke of Edinburgh Awards type scheme, a Modern Apprenticeship, an NVQ and work experience. Based on the individuals interests and abilities, they would be trained in both basic skills such as cookery and home management, gardening and DIY as well as more complex skills like plumbing, carpentry, welding, mechanics, plastering or bricklaying. These are only examples, and not exhaustive.

The benefits would be that young people would be exposed to a lot of different experiences that they may not otherwise get. Along the way they may find they a have an aptitude for cookery, or that they enjoy being a welder. Many 16 and 17 years olds are not absolutely certain of what they want to do, I know I wasn't!

The participants would live communally in camps, and be granted privileges in return for good conduct and progress. This might include access to PC's phones, games facilities and the like. On completing the programme, the 'graduates' would receive a certificate outlining what they have achieved.

It would not be a punishment to attend this training. It would help to gain invaluable life skills as well as experience in wider range of vocations than may otherwise be possible.

 

[90019]

I'm cuious how many of those in favour of bringing it back are above the age reuired to have to do it?

Also, if you have people who are causing trouble where they are, do you really think they won't cause trouble just because you put them somewhere else to try and discipline them?
As far as I'm concerned, it would be a waste of time and money, there would be no real punishments for these people, they would just refuse, since they 'know their rights' (but not their responsibilities).

 

[Greenback]

I'm cuious how many of those in favour of bringing it back are above the age reuired to have to do it?

Also, if you have people who are causing trouble where they are, do you really think they won't cause trouble just because you put them somewhere else to try and discipline them?
As far as I'm concerned, it would be a waste of time and money, there would be no real punishments for these people, they would just refuse, since they 'know their rights' (but not their responsibilities).

There has to be a mix of the carrot and the stick. Too much stick won't work, but there are growing numbers of disillusioned people who feel ignored by society and do not have the skills to cope with life. We need to give them the skills they need, a greater sense of self worth and respect for others, and we need to do it in a disciplined and controlled environment. Not nasty, strict but fair.

 

[Hydro]

Neither have I! I should make clear that I am not at all in favour of the traditional idea of National Service. The armed forces do not want to have to waste their time looking after a bunch of unwilling conspricts - they have more than enought o do at the moment as it is!

My idea of a modern, 21st century scheme would be a sort of cross between a Duke of Edinburgh Awards type scheme, a Modern Apprenticeship, an NVQ and work experience. Based on the individuals interests and abilities, they would be trained in both basic skills such as cookery and home management, gardening and DIY as well as more complex skills like plumbing, carpentry, welding, mechanics, plastering or bricklaying. These are only examples, and not exhaustive.

The benefits would be that young people would be exposed to a lot of different experiences that they may not otherwise get. Along the way they may find they a have an aptitude for cookery, or that they enjoy being a welder. Many 16 and 17 years olds are not absolutely certain of what they want to do, I know I wasn't!

The participants would live communally in camps, and be granted privileges in return for good conduct and progress. This might include access to PC's phones, games facilities and the like. On completing the programme, the 'graduates' would receive a certificate outlining what they have achieved.
.

Also known as the Network Rail Advanced Apprenticeship Scheme...

 

[Yew]

Does anyone remember the tv program 'bad lads army'. Essentially they took minor criminals or people who probably would become minor criminals if they kept on going. And put then in a 1950's army environment. It generally seemed to work for them.

Maybe we could have some sort of duke of Edinburgh award scheme, say 6 weeks of 'basic training'. Or have schools offer a week long residential every year for those who are interested?

 

[passmore]

I'm cuious how many of those in favour of bringing it back are above the age reuired to have to do it?

Also, if you have people who are causing trouble where they are, do you really think they won't cause trouble just because you put them somewhere else to try and discipline them?
As far as I'm concerned, it would be a waste of time and money, there would be no real punishments for these people, they would just refuse, since they 'know their rights' (but not their responsibilities).

As I said earlier, National Service is not a form of punishment nor is it a deterrent. It is designed to teach young people self-discipline etc.
I do agree that it has no place in a modern society since core familial values have changed a lot over 40/50 years. Kids will see it as irrelevant and/or pointless.

 

[90019]

As I said earlier, National Service is not a form of punishment nor is it a deterrent. It is designed to teach young people self-discipline etc.

And when they decide they don't want to do it? What do you do then?

 

[Hydro]

National Service didn't, and doesn't exist in the countries that still use it, as a social cure for young people. It's a way to maintain a standing fighting force; conscription. The move to a smaller, professional military made National Service obsolete.