My idea to simplify fares

[sheff1]

You mean as in here and here? I think you will find that it is challenged and not ignored.

Yes those are the threads. The response to the original Grantham question was ignored and then disappeared from the thread. I think everything else asked in this thread is already covered in the posts which remain in the old threads.

As Oscar already pointed out in the thread I quoted, the Swiss use a mixture of distance-based and market-based pricing, so your example is flawed in itself.

I don't agree that it is flawed. I have already said that it is possible to overlay a measure of market pricing onto a distance based system.

If all long-distance services are reservation compulsory, and your intended service is fully reserved, what happens next? And is this not removing passenger choices?

We seem to be at cross purposes here. I thought you were talking about distance based pricing. Compulsory reservation was introduced to the thread as a suggestion to overcome a potential problem regarding queuing.

 

[Clip]

Perhaps the same as Oyster? Assume that you've taken a predefined default route unless you touch pink readers?

As shown in this thread which shows that some predefined routes are not quite the routes people would take though.

And then how do you educate people about the routes that they should take, routes that they can take and those they cannot? For every train journey in the uk? Feasible?

 

[tbtc]

I have already said that it is possible to overlay a measure of market pricing onto a distance based system

So which distance based system would you go for?

As the crow flies? (which would mean a single from Livingston North to Livingston South would be a lot cheaper than a single to from either station Edinburgh)

Distance based on the shortest available route by rail?

Distance based on the average rail distance (via the various direct routes)?

At the moment you often have an incentive to use a longer distance (like sitting on an LM 350 via Northampton when travelling from London to Birmingham), which any such "simplification" would remove.

 

[soil]

Point taken - but not necessarily.

Right, here's a even more ludicrous one.

Scarborough-Seamer, return (or vice versa), a journey of 5 minutes each way.

Off peak day return (after 9.30) £2.90.

Anytime day return (exactly that) £3.10

Off-peak return (return within a month) £4.10

Anytime return (travel on day and following 4 days, return within a month) £5.10

Now just for starters, I wonder if the fourth option has ever been purchased - a quite pointless ticket option for a 5 minute journey.

Handy for fare evasion.

 

[Oscar]

I can only repeat, such a system works in several countries including the ones I have mentioned. In fact, it works so well in Switzerland that they have the highest train usage per head of population figures in Europe.

It is worth remembering that Swiss pricing does not follow a strict distance - price formula but rather the price is modified to prevent for example a longer and more circuitous mountainous route from being more expensive than a base tunnel route and to allow one ticket to be valid via different routes where possible. The railways deliberately ensure that split ticketing does not save money. Moreover, more and more local fares in Switzerland have now become zonal and these fares are priced by local Verkehrsverbünde (organisations which organise pricing and service levels for all forms of transport and which have strong links to local government).

 

[sheff1]

It is worth remembering that Swiss pricing does not follow a strict distance - price formula but rather the price is modified to prevent for example a longer and more circuitous mountainous route from being more expensive than a base tunnel route and to allow one ticket to be valid via different routes where possible. The railways deliberately ensure that split ticketing does not save money. Moreover, more and more local fares in Switzerland have now become zonal and these fares are priced by local Verkehrsverbünde (organisations which organise pricing and service levels for all forms of transport and which have strong links to local government).

Yes, I appreciate this - it has been mentioned by yourself and others in previous threads on the subject.

When I engaged on these threads I really did not think it was appropriate to go into great detail on the individual systems in the various countries put forward as examples of succesful distance based (with the emphasis being on based) pricing as this would result in an extremely lengthy post more akin to a consultation/discussion document than an internet forum.

Each country has its own subtle (and in some cases not so subtle ) tweaks to meet local circumstances. In my view a good way forward would be to take the best ideas from each of the distance based pricing structures already in operation to design a system suitable for GB. Unfortunately, I do not see that it is possible to do this in any structured way on an internet forum.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Are you saying that the fare between London and Edinburgh (via ECML for example) will be the sum of the fares between London and Finsbury Park, Finsbury Park and Harringay, Harringay and Hornsey, Hornsey and Alexandra Palace, ...?

Yeah, that's the gist of the idea. The same of course would be true of per-mile pricing, however per-mile pricing has difficulties, as have been discussed on this thread, eg.:

So a full and standing commuter line into London would cost the same per mile as a trip through the Highlands?

My proposal was intended to address that issue, while still having the advantage of eliminating the possiblity that buying a longer-distance ticket and travelling short is cheaper.

There are probably still other issues with my suggestion of course, but perhaps it could help nudge somebody else's thinking in a helpful direction.

I see you propose a peak differential, so each section will have two fares: one for peak and one for off peak. Can you confirm for each, what time restrictions apply to the off peak price? Also when I add up the constituent parts, can you give me instructions on how I calculate whether or not I take the peak or off peak part?

For example if I leave York at peak time but it becomes off peak at Church Fenton, is the entire York-Sheffield ticket peak, as would happen at present?

Each bit of line would probably need to have it's own rules regarding what is peak and what isn't, and how much the peak differential needs to be. My idea of adding the constiuent parts together means you'd only pay peak rate for the sections you travel over at peak time (while that would work for the 'Tethered' ticket type, I see now there'd probably be a problem with flexible tickets).

An alternative way to modify a price-per-mile system might be to have an exit/entrance rate for stations (which is modified for peak etc. in much the same way as the stretches of track in my proposal), added on top of a flat national rate of 1 or two pence per mile for the journey travelled. A problem with that however is that it probably means disallowing break of journey and finding some way of enforcing it, prefrably without ticket barriers (which I don't like, partly because they prevent access to platforms to watch/film/photograph trains or see friends/relatives onto the train).

Moreover, more and more local fares in Switzerland have now become zonal

Anyone have any suggestions of how a zone-based system could, or could not, be applied accross the UK mainland rail network?

In my view a good way forward would be to take the best ideas from each of the distance based pricing structures already in operation to design a system suitable for GB. Unfortunately, I do not see that it is possible to do this in any structured way on an internet forum.

How about suggesting a few good practices and see if anyone here can think of a way to apply them over here?