My idea to simplify fares

[VauxhallandI]

If the TOCs cannot learn the rules then they shouldn't be enforcing them.

They should campaign to simplify them then everyone knows the game an we can cut all this cr*p.

 

[Flamingo]

They should campaign to simplify them then everyone knows the game an we can cut all this cr*p

I agree. One ticket only, valid from A to B. Single's only. No splits, no railcards, no Advances, no peak/off peak. No break of journey.

Let's say a small discount (10%) for buying online, and a double-price penalty if buying on-board when it could have bought before travel.

That would be simple.

It'll have to be revenue-neutral, so there will be losers as well as winners.

But it would make my job a hell of a lot easier in so many ways.

(Mind you, the queuing system that would need to be in place for main stations at peak time will be complicated...)

 

[VauxhallandI]

I agree. One ticket only, valid from A to B. Single's only. No splits, no railcards, no Advances, no peak/off peak. No break of journey.

Let's say a small discount (10%) for buying online, and a double-price penalty if buying on-board when it could have bought before travel.

That would be simple.

It'll have to be revenue-neutral, so there will be losers as well as winners.

But it would make my job a hell of a lot easier in so many ways.

(Mind you, the queuing system that would need to be in place for main stations at peak time will be complicated...)

Let's give it a go!

Save cash on all the administration which could be used for other purposes

 

[sheff1]

(Mind you, the queuing system that would need to be in place for main stations at peak time will be complicated...)

No need ... just make all long distance trains reservation mandatory (reservations to be bookable up to time of departure from station you are boarding at)

 

[Simon11]

No need ... just make all long distance trains reservation mandatory (reservations to be bookable up to time of departure from station you are boarding at)

So its a wave good buy to cheaper fares putting off leisure customers who travel in the quieter periods while businessmen who are not too bothered about their fare (since their firm pays it) will end up paying less

 

[VauxhallandI]

The spread of possible fares is crazy.

Euston to Manchester for £7 etc just means someone else has to pay £100

A reasonable return bought over a week in advance shoud be say £50 with last minute fares say 20% more.

I'm sure I will have missed something but it's a starting point
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So its a wave good buy to cheaper fares putting off leisure customers who travel in the quieter periods while businessmen who are not too bothered about their fare (since their firm pays it) will end up paying less

My boss certainly cares how much train journeys cost. If it is too much then it's a no go. This could have implications for personal as well as corporate growth

 

[Ediswan]

If fares were a simple fixed 'pence per mile', price with no discounts, does anyboy have any idea what that price would need to be ?

I don't have a solution to this horribly complicated problem, just curious about last year's (revenue)/(passenger miles) as a reference.

 

[yorkie]

Go on then, what price do you propose for a day return from Whitby to York, or from York to London? Then tell me what are the implications of the proposed prices.

£60 for an Anytime Return from London to Manchester? While I'd love to see it, revenue would drop massively! Some of the trains would be full to bursting point. No-one would book in advance.

 

[tbtc]

If fares were a simple fixed 'pence per mile', price with no discounts, does anyboy have any idea what that price would need to be ?

I don't know the answer to that, but would you be talking "as the crow flies" or "via the shortest possible railway route" or "via the most common direct service"?

You'd probably have to get rid of all PTE subsidies (e.g. Sheffield it about equidistant from Barnsley and Chesterfield, but fares to Barnsley are cheaper as the PTE subsidises them). Plus regional railcards/ rover tickets etc would need scrapping.

 

[Ediswan]

I don't know the answer to that, but would you be talking "as the crow flies" or "via the shortest possible railway route" or "via the most common direct service"?

Keeping it simple, the actual passenger miles travelled.

In other words, if every TOC had been counting every head on, and every head off, for every service, at every stop, what count of passenger track miles would they come up with.

I doubt they do that, so it has to be an estimate.

 

[sheff1]

Go on then, what price do you propose for a day return from Whitby to York, or from York to London?

I was wondering how long it would be

 

[mikeg]

According to this article :http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16390608

The average cost per mile across the whole of the network and presumably taking into account all ticket types is 20p. This is similar adjusting for inflation to the previous time mileage based pricing was in place. This was in 2012 so needs uprating to 2013 prices.

Thus a single from York to Whitby via Yarm would cost a whopping 17.20 compared to 13.20. A return costs only 10p more so this ticket is good value. I doubt the Esk valley line would be viable under mileage based pricing and I believe Yorkie has already made this point another thread some time ago.

 

[Goatboy]

No need ... just make all long distance trains reservation mandatory (reservations to be bookable up to time of departure from station you are boarding at)

Good idea.

So the Penzance to Glasgow Central would, as one of the longest distance trains be reservation mandatory.

But obviously the Bristol Temple Meads to Bristol Parkway or perhaps the Tiverton Parkway to Taunton train wouldn't be - these are very short trips.

Oops. All of these are the same train..

 

[ainsworth74]

For those advocating mileage pricing, could you answer these questions please:

1) Please give me the proposed fares from York to Whitby for a day return, avoiding Darlington, and tell me how this fare is calculated and whether you think it will be competetive with the coach service provided by Coastliner that costs only slightly more than the current rail ticket price but offers a shorter journey time?

2) Please give me the proposed fares from York to London for a day return, and if this is lower than current prices, tell me where the revenue will be brought in to compensate EC for the revenue loss?

3) Please give me the proposed fares from Peterborough to Leicester, and also Leicester to Nottingham, and let me know how you are calculating the mileage and whether under your system it will be permitted to travel from Peterborough to Nottingham via Leicester or not, and if someone does go via Leicester what excess will be charged (if any)?

If you can't give me actual fares and details of how they are calculated then I'll assume the system doesn't work.

You can get mileages from the NRT, or the "carbon emissions" options on WebTIS-powered sites, or from Railmiles.

In the highly unlikely event that these questions can be answered in a way that would be satisfactory to the DfT, ATOC, the TOCs, and passengers, then I will be quite shocked.

 

[yorkie]

And here are the answers with 25p/mile applied: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1314282&postcount=47

Some journeys such as York - Whitby become totally unviable, and rail ceases to be able to compete with road transport.

The really popular journeys would reduce in price, with an unrestricted York - London return being lower than the current Super Off Peak, and local journeys in the London area halving in price.

Also, I meant to ask for Peterborough - Leicester and compare that to Leicester - Nottingham, the reason being that Leicester is on a permitted route between Peterborough & Nottingham, and also it's interesting to see if a slow, curvy route should be charged at a premium to a fast, straight route.

Oh, and St Pancras to Ashford is 1 mile shorter via HS1 than avoiding HS1, so is there a premium to avoid HS1?

I would like the laws, rules etc simplified and clarified, providing it was not done in a way that was anti-customer, however mileage-based ticket pricing does not work!

There is no need to change the fares, they can change the legislation and rules instead. But given that current Government policy is to make us pay more, you can't trust them to do this in a way that is not detrimental to us, so we are best with the status quo.

If guarantees were in place to ensure our rights were maintained, then I'd be all for some simplification of the rules and regulations!

 

[Ediswan]

For those advocating mileage pricing, could you answer these questions please:

I raised the subject of mileage pricing. I did try to make it clear that was a statistical question. I am not suggesting that a return to mileage pricing would solve all the current problems. It is a useful reference. A figure of 20p/mile has been suggested.

For my most common journey, I pay more like 30p/mile, off peak. I am content with that. I get at worst an hourly service, which has return services well past midnight. I always get a seat, max 10% occupancy ? A 50% premium over the average for a service that runs 90% empty does not seen excessive.

Route: Stevenage - Hertford North.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

however mileage-based ticket pricing does not work!

This is what gives me a headache. If the BBC quoted in #12 of this thread is to be believed, mileage pricing is exactly what existed until 1968. The huge peaks casued by commuters are the usual reason given for odd fares. There were already hordes of commuters in 1968.

So what changed ?

 

[soil]

The labour market is far more flexible now than in 1968

 

[swj99]

If fares were a simple fixed 'pence per mile', price with no discounts, does anybody have any idea what that price would need to be ?

Good question. I don't know how you'd price it. It reminds me of when I worked for a local authority many years ago. If I had to use a pool car to get somewhere for work, I'd book one out. The prices varied, depending on the level of misery you were prepared to put up with. For example, they had several mark 2 Fiestas. Some were the base model, ie Popular Plus (957cc) without a radio. If you really wanted to live it up, you got a Fiesta L 1.1, with a medium wave pushbutton radio. They had a few Escorts as well, some Vauxhall Cavaliers and some Austin Montegos, but these were almost nice to drive and had a radio / cassette player, so they cost more. Unless you were the head of a department you were only allowed to use the nice vehicles if the cheaper ones weren't available. Basically the department was charged a certain amount per mile, I don't know what the figure was. For private use after work hours, you could borrow the cars. The base model fiestas were about 9p a mile, the 1.1s were 13p a mile, a Montego was 16 or 17p etc. Each vehicle came with a fuel card so you could go to a Shell petrol station and fill up without having to spend your own money. They even had a card for one of the windscreen firms so if you had a shattered screen you could get it fixed straight away. The mileage charge would have taken into account the purchase of the car, depreciation, servicing, fuel, insurance etc.
There were no discounts as such, although some departments had pool cars on allocation for months at a time, so maybe there was a different rate for these.
I suppose you could just charge train fares on a mileage basis, at least everyone would know or be able to work out what the cost would be. That however, would be like going from one extreme to another.
One aspect of the mileage pricing that the council pool car idea was based on is that it was before the days of competitive tendering, so it was run 'in house' and it was non profit.

There is probably a compromise that's simpler than the system that exists now, but all aspirations and ideas are subject to the civilian equivalent of 'mission creep' and before you know it, a simple, sensible system will suddenly have got complicated again.

 

[cuccir]

There were already hordes of commuters in 1968.

So what changed ?

There are far more people commuting today than in 1968 - it wouldn't surprise me if there was a factor of ten more - and commuting further.

 

[VauxhallandI]

And here are the answers with 25p/mile applied: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1314282&postcount=47

Some journeys such as York - Whitby become totally unviable, and rail ceases to be able to compete with road transport.

The really popular journeys would reduce in price, with an unrestricted York - London return being lower than the current Super Off Peak, and local journeys in the London area halving in price.

Also, I meant to ask for Peterborough - Leicester and compare that to Leicester - Nottingham, the reason being that Leicester is on a permitted route between Peterborough & Nottingham, and also it's interesting to see if a slow, curvy route should be charged at a premium to a fast, straight route.

Oh, and St Pancras to Ashford is 1 mile shorter via HS1 than avoiding HS1, so is there a premium to avoid HS1?

I would like the laws, rules etc simplified and clarified, providing it was not done in a way that was anti-customer, however mileage-based ticket pricing does not work!

There is no need to change the fares, they can change the legislation and rules instead. But given that current Government policy is to make us pay more, you can't trust them to do this in a way that is not detrimental to us, so we are best with the status quo.

If guarantees were in place to ensure our rights were maintained, then I'd be all for some simplification of the rules and regulations!

I'm sure you are right like changing to the Euro I'm sure there would be a stiffing in there somewhere

 

[Rhydgaled]

I think each peice of track should have a standard price assigned so that anyone using said stretch pays the same ammount and splitting tickets becomes pointless. eg. Reading to Paddington would carry the same cost whether you start from Reading, Swindon, Swansea or Penzance (with the cost of each section to Reading from the origin point added of course).

An off-peak flexible return (basicly a four week season ticket that isn't valid in the peaks) would be charged at that rate, then you have standard nationwide modifiers applied to that fare for different tickets types, special offers etc. eg:

Ticket Types
TETHERED Valid on the specified train only (available as a return as well, you just specify the train for both directions, these can be many months apart)
ANYTIME Allows travel at peak times

Other modifiers, eg.
RAILCARDS -35%
SINGLE -45% (one way ticket, nearly half the price of the return)
DAY -20% (valid for only one day, reducing the cost)
PEAK +40% (this might possibly need to be variable on the same 'stretch of track' basis)
1-YEAR SEASON +/-?% (don't know what effect that would havee)
FIRST CLASS + 50% (increase only charged on the streches 1st class is available on)
ADVANCE -*% (discount applied to tethered or specified-date tickets when bought a specifed time in advance, with the discount rate increasing depending on how far in advance the ticket is booked)

The biggest problem is what to do with tickets that allow multiple routes Could you just charge the more expensive but ensure the journey planners show the cheaper 'via ____' option as well?

 

[bb21]

I think each peice of track should have a standard price assigned so that anyone using said stretch pays the same ammount and splitting tickets becomes pointless. eg. Reading to Paddington would carry the same cost whether you start from Reading, Swindon, Swansea or Penzance (with the cost of each section to Reading from the origin point added of course).

Are you saying that the fare between London and Edinburgh (via ECML for example) will be the sum of the fares between London and Finsbury Park, Finsbury Park and Harringay, Harringay and Hornsey, Hornsey and Alexandra Palace, ...? How much do you think London to Edinburgh will cost?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

No need ... just make all long distance trains reservation mandatory (reservations to be bookable up to time of departure from station you are boarding at)

Define a long distance train.

What happens, when the reservation become mandatory, if the numbers currently using the service are greater than the number of seats on the train?

 

[Flamingo]

Or South Wales / Pad to Rdg (or Cornwall) where long-distance trains become short-distance / commuter trains.

This argument comes up every few months, but quickly shows that there is no easy fix, and definitely no fix that would involve everybody paying less.

 

[Clip]

The spread of possible fares is crazy.

Euston to Manchester for £7 etc just means someone else has to pay £100

No it doesnt. It has no bearing on it what so ever. The dirt cheap advances fares are there to encourage people to use the trains at a quieter period of time or else they would just be carting around fresh air. Remember , the less you pay as gives you less flexibility with these advance tickets.

 

[Flamingo]

But under simplification they would / should be scrapped, as too many people get confused by them....

 

[cuccir]

Define a long distance train.

Indeed. There's lots of stations only or predominantly served by inter-city trains (eg Berwick, Alnmouth).

There are simplifications that could happen. I'd like to see the variety of off-peak restrictions brought down to a dozen or so, rather than over a hundred - I think that this could be done through consolidation without significant impact.

Could the DfT perhaps release a guideline price per mile which TOCs would then have to justify their pricing against, either by reference to frequency of service, reliability of service, speed of service, or quality of train?

 

[yorkie]

I think each peice of track should have a standard price assigned so that anyone using said stretch pays the same ammount and splitting tickets becomes pointless. ...

OK let's try that. Let's take York - Sheffield, can you please price up the following constituent parts:

York - Doncaster
Doncaster - Conisbrough
Conisbrough - Mexborough
Mexborough - Swinton
Swinton - Rotherham
Rotherham - Meadowhall (Also is Swinton - Meadowhall the same if you avoid Rotherham?)
Meadowhall - Sheffield

York - Ulleskelf
Ulleskelf - Church Fenton
Church Fenton - Sherburn
Sherburn - Moorthorpe
Moorthorpe - Thurnscoe
Thurnscoe - Goldthorpe
Goldthorpe - Bolton on Dearn
Bolton on Dearn - Swinton

Church Fenton - Micklefield
Micklefield - Garforth
Garforth - East Garforth
East Garforth - Cross Gates
Cross Gates - Leeds
Leeds - Outwood
Outwood - Wakefield
Wakefield - Sandal & Agbrigg
Sandal & Agbrigg - Fitzwilliam
Fitzwilliam - Moorthorpe

and then the same via Barnsley?

If one route adds up to higher than the other, which will be "Any Permitted" and which routes will be route-specific fares?

I see you propose a peak differential, so each section will have two fares: one for peak and one for off peak. Can you confirm for each, what time restrictions apply to the off peak price? Also when I add up the constituent parts, can you give me instructions on how I calculate whether or not I take the peak or off peak part?

For example if I leave York at peak time but it becomes off peak at Church Fenton, is the entire York-Sheffield ticket peak, as would happen at present?

Thanks

 

[tbtc]

Keeping it simple, the actual passenger miles travelled.

In other words, if every TOC had been counting every head on, and every head off, for every service, at every stop, what count of passenger track miles would they come up with.

I doubt they do that, so it has to be an estimate.

So if I travel from Birmingham to Edinburgh, am I paying the cost of the number of miles via Preston or the cost of the number of miles via York? (both are direct trains, at the moment, so perfectly valid).

If I wanted to travel the longer way then would I have to pay a premium for the longer mileage? But the longer mileages are generally the slower services (e.g. Birmingham to London via Northampton), so I'd be paying more for a poorer service?

At the moment on some routes (like the Northampton one) you're encouraged to take a slower service via a longer route by the cheaper price. Under a simple "price per mile" arrangement, there'd be no incentive - in fact there'd be a disincentive.

I think each peice of track should have a standard price assigned so that anyone using said stretch pays the same ammount

Do you expect to pay the same price per litre/ gram of a food/ drink regardless of whether you buy the small tin or the multipack?

 

[sheff1]

... however mileage-based ticket pricing does not work!

In your opinion. Other opinions are available.

I would be interested to see the % of rail travellers in say The Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark or Switzerland who would wish to ditch distance-based pricing in favour of a system based on the British model.