• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Must staff identify themselves on demand?

Status
Not open for further replies.

357

Established Member
Joined
12 Nov 2018
Messages
2,284
Ah, but do you employ Byelaw powers... ;)
This line used to be used all the time by ticket inspectors at a TOC I used to work for.

Genuine question;

Does this mean that station staff can not ask people to leave a station for non-compliance with bylaws?

Under section 12 of the bylaws, an authorised person may, in an emergency or in other circumstances in which he believes he should act in the interests of safety, issue instructions to any person on the railway. If my train is on fire - could I disregard the need to evacuate passengers due to the possibility I do not "employ bylaw powers"?

I checked the bylaws and this is all it contains about who is authorised:

“authorised person” means:
(i) a person acting in the course of his duties who:
(a) is an employee or agent of an Operator, or
(b) any other person authorised by an Operator, or
(ii) any constable, acting in the execution of his duties upon or in connection with the railway;

(3) Identification of authorised persons An authorised person who is exercising any power conferred on him by any of these Byelaws shall produce a form of identification when requested to do so and such identification shall state the name of his employer and shall contain a means of identifying the authorised person.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

adc82140

Established Member
Joined
10 May 2008
Messages
3,407
This does need to be rethought in the social media nutcase age. Employers should be giving advice about online protection from these people. I wear a name badge in my non railway public facing role. I have a Facebook account. But unless you know me personally you'll never find it. It's not difficult to set up your privacy to do this, but it's not the default level.

Perhaps there should be a system in place where you can choose to work under a "stage name". As long as your employer knows which name belongs to who, what does it matter if your name badge says "Homer Simpson" on it?
 
Last edited:

dk1

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Oct 2009
Messages
19,874
Location
East Anglia
My TOC does not issue name badges or ID!
Surely you have to have some form of ID whether in pocket or on a lanyard to go to non-public areas? I was under the impression it was compulsory & has been for several years.
 

Towers

Established Member
Joined
30 Aug 2021
Messages
2,998
Location
UK
Surely you have to have some form of ID whether in pocket or on a lanyard to go to non-public areas? I was under the impression it was compulsory & has been for several years.
I was about to ask the same! I thought the Transec SWAT team were always waiting just around the corner for anybody with no I.D. on! :D
 

seagull

Member
Joined
28 Feb 2011
Messages
619
In the early Virgin Trains days staff did generally have to wear a name badge with first name and surname on it, however IIRC after at least one quite nasty incident where a female guard was threatened then stalked and harassed (and that was before social media was a big thing) and the perpetrator had to have a restraining order issued: the company softened their stance and allowed first name only badges.
 

Falcon1200

Established Member
Joined
14 Jun 2021
Messages
6,558
Location
Neilston, East Renfrewshire
I moved away from a passenger-facing role on the railway in 1984, one of the reasons (although not the only or main one) was being fed up with the general rudeness of the Great British Public, who would indeed complain about anything. Two examples; BR staff (ie me) not being able to give them bus timetables (the bus station was two minutes walk away), and demanding I explain why a certain village did not have a railway station - How can you answer that ?!! Thereafter my interaction with non-railway people was over the phone, and if asked I would give my job title and location, enough for my employer to identify me. I would certainly never give my surname, it is quite unusual, and the world is full of too many nutcases.

(I did once receive a diatribe from other staff who were implicated in the blame for a delay, and misunderstood the Trust Delay Code to be my initials !)
 

357

Established Member
Joined
12 Nov 2018
Messages
2,284
Surely you have to have some form of ID whether in pocket or on a lanyard to go to non-public areas? I was under the impression it was compulsory & has been for several years.
I have worked for 5 TOCs and none have ever issued me an ID card.

We are all aware of the requirement but it is clearly not being met, at least in my part of the country.
 

dk1

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Oct 2009
Messages
19,874
Location
East Anglia
I was about to ask the same! I thought the Transec SWAT team were always waiting just around the corner for anybody with no I.D. on! :D
I have only ever known one female manager who has ever questioned traincrew.
 

357

Established Member
Joined
12 Nov 2018
Messages
2,284
I was about to ask the same! I thought the Transec SWAT team were always waiting just around the corner for anybody with no I.D. on! :D
When they visited my station all they did was check that the security checks had been completed.
 

Undiscovered

Member
Joined
28 Jan 2013
Messages
546
Perhaps there should be a system in place where you can choose to work under a "stage name". As long as your employer knows which name belongs to who, what does it matter if your name badge says "Homer Simpson" on it?
My TOC certainly allows this, and we were advised so on induction and at various stages of our training. It can be requested at any time during employment, as far as I'm aware.
 

dk1

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Oct 2009
Messages
19,874
Location
East Anglia
My TOC certainly allows this, and we were advised so on induction and at various stages of our training. It can be requested at any time during employment, as far as I'm aware.
Been permitted for many years. Even in Regional Railways days one of my colleagues Paul became Aaron at work. Got a few now too.
 

Watershed

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
26 Sep 2020
Messages
16,708
Location
UK
Does this mean that station staff can not ask people to leave a station for non-compliance with bylaws?
If they're an authorised person and can produce identification meeting the Byelaw requirements if asked, then yes.

Strictly speaking their ability to use Byelaw powers don't depend on whether they can produce identification, but it is a risky business as they would theoretically be committing an offence if someone asked them for their identification and they couldn't (or refused to) produce anything.

Under section 12 of the bylaws, an authorised person may, in an emergency or in other circumstances in which he believes he should act in the interests of safety, issue instructions to any person on the railway. If my train is on fire - could I disregard the need to evacuate passengers due to the possibility I do not "employ bylaw powers"?
See above. Although it's worth noting that there are likely to be other powers to force people to leave in an emergency, which are not contingent on Byelaw powers.

I checked the bylaws and this is all it contains about who is authorised:
Yes, most customer facing staff are likely to be authorised persons.
 

wobman

Established Member
Joined
2 Jan 2011
Messages
1,233
Surely you have to have some form of ID whether in pocket or on a lanyard to go to non-public areas? I was under the impression it was compulsory & has been for several years.
We have to have a toc ID badge, plus we have to carry our driver ID. we were told its compulsory.
As for passenger asking my name, I just say I'm the driver of the service 1### which is the #### from a to b for example. Nobody needs my name or ID number for a complaint, my control know who is on what service.
 

43066

Veteran Member
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
12,089
Location
London
Anyone who refuses to give their name admits their guilt in my opinion. Else what would they have to hide from an investigation? All staff are representing their company whilst on duty and should provide their name and depot without question on demand.

I must say I completely disagree with this Personally as a driver I certainly would not give my name to anyone, least of all if they “demand” it! There’s a clear personal security risk in doing so with social media being as it is these days. If anyone wants to identify me then citing which train I was working would be enough.

To be fair as drivers it’s far less likely to be a issue as we aren’t really customer facing. Guards, who are, wear name badges and many even introduce themselves by the first name over the PA. I have no idea whether they are required to do this, however.
 

sd0733

Established Member
Joined
7 Nov 2012
Messages
5,186
Regularly? Why so many complaints?
In my experience as traincrew, several passengers feel that 'demanding' for your full name to make a complaint is emotional blackmail to back down and give them their own way.
 

dk1

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Oct 2009
Messages
19,874
Location
East Anglia
In my experience as traincrew, several passengers feel that 'demanding' for your full name to make a complaint is emotional blackmail to back down and give them their own way.
No chance of that happening but then I have never been asked my first name either.
 

172007

Member
Joined
2 Jan 2021
Messages
1,156
Location
West Mids
For some colleagues, especially if they have a memorably unusual name, is the concern that if they have had a fatality and the family blamed the railway for the death then a potentially difficult situation could arise hence why all companies should accept alias names.

Does anyone know if this has ever occurred?
 

Scott1

Member
Joined
29 Apr 2015
Messages
385
Regularly? Why so many complaints?
The job role you carry out impacts this, for example an RPO or gateline colleague is likely to get more complaints than someone not involved in ticketing since its an area that potentially involves conflict.

I often get asked for my name, sometimes complaints, but sometimes compliments too, or just because the passenger wants a record of who they spoke to (for example if I've told them about ticket acceptance during disruption).

Personally I'll happily give first name and my base location as that's all the company needs to identify me.
 

Harold Hill

On Moderation
Joined
24 Oct 2019
Messages
135
Location
Bristol
Gotcha, thank you. I was at Temple Meads recently buying a return ticket to the nearest station and mentioned to the clerk that I was only buying it to get on the platforms to see the steam train that was going to be passing through. She then refused to sell me a ticket because I wasn't traveling. I wasn't very happy when I later bumped into a chap who'd been let through the barriers by staff specifically to see the steamer. Somewhat off-topic but I wished I'd asked for the name or number of that clerk
 

Watershed

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
26 Sep 2020
Messages
16,708
Location
UK
Gotcha, thank you. I was at Temple Meads recently buying a return ticket to the nearest station and mentioned to the clerk that I was only buying it to get on the platforms to see the steam train that was going to be passing through. She then refused to sell me a ticket because I wasn't traveling. I wasn't very happy when I later bumped into a chap who'd been let through the barriers by staff specifically to see the steamer. Somewhat off-topic but I wished I'd asked for the name or number of that clerk
If you didn't have success just walking straight up to the barriers, I would have asked to buy a platform ticket.
 

Gloster

Veteran Member
Joined
4 Sep 2020
Messages
12,997
Location
Up the creek
I should possibly have added a bit more in the original post. Firstly, I am not suggesting that staff should give all their personal details to anyone who asks. The point is: do their contracts, railway rules, or whatever say they are actually required to provide sufficient details, even if anonymised as far as the public are concerned, for railway management to identify them when asked? Or can they just refuse to give out details and, effectively, walk away? I am not thinking so much of guards, etc. whose duties mean that management can, even without a name, identify who is involved. I am thinking of cases where there may be a number of people on site (station staff at large stations, for example) or whose duties are less controlled.

This started with a question from a friend’s wife about a journey she made when there was somebody who she reckoned was a railway employee of some sort, based on a telephone call he made and some paperwork he was studying. However, he was in a suit and so she couldn’t be sure. On a fairly busy train he hogged four seats, rudely told anybody who wanted to use them to go away and when another passenger getting off at Reading said something about his behaviour to him, replied with a short sentence including a four-letter word. It doesn’t help that she can’t remember who operated the train, exactly what time it was or or where she got on, although that was probably Oxford. Her question was on the lines of, “Would I have the right to demand that he identify himself so that I can make a complaint?”
 

Harold Hill

On Moderation
Joined
24 Oct 2019
Messages
135
Location
Bristol
I also asked for a platform ticket and was told they didn't exist. Previously, a few months ago, I was sent to an office on the platform to ask the boss man if I could watch the trains for 20 minutes
 

BluePenguin

On Moderation
Joined
26 Sep 2016
Messages
1,605
Location
Kent
I must say I completely disagree with this Personally as a driver I certainly would not give my name to anyone, least of all if they “demand” it! There’s a clear personal security risk in doing so with social media being as it is these days. If anyone wants to identify me then citing which train I was working would be enough.

To be fair as drivers it’s far less likely to be a issue as we aren’t really customer facing. Guards, who are, wear name badges and many even introduce themselves by the first name over the PA. I have no idea whether they are required to do this, however.
That is fair enough. Although I am surprised to hear that you flat out refuse to give your name to anybody. Especially considering other the railway staff will willingly give their name out over the tannoy or in stations. Knowing which train a member of staff is working is not usually sufficient. But I completely respect your privacy is important to you. Conductors and guards are friendly and customer facing, drivers often choose not to be.

Police officers, pilots and other people in the transport industry do not seem to suffer the same personal security threat that you feel that you are exposed to. If you have a standard British name, chances are that your TOC employs thousands of other people with the same name anyway. So you’re not particularly identifiable anyway :)
 

skyhigh

Established Member
Joined
14 Sep 2014
Messages
6,871
Knowing which train a member of staff is working is not usually sufficient.
Why not? The TOC knows exactly who is working each train and they can easily identify who the driver/guard was.
Police officers, pilots and other people in the transport industry do not seem to suffer the same personal security threat that you feel that you are exposed to.
I assure you police officers do get people stalking them on Facebook etc.

For what it's worth, if anyone wants to know I'm perfectly happy to provide my first name and train details, that's plenty for the company to identify who I am if required.
 

Towers

Established Member
Joined
30 Aug 2021
Messages
2,998
Location
UK
I also asked for a platform ticket and was told they didn't exist. Previously, a few months ago, I was sent to an office on the platform to ask the boss man if I could watch the trains for 20 minutes
Off-topic here, but I'd suggest use of a TVM to purchase a return to somewhere on the Severn Beach line as a sensible course of action next time, if a polite enquiry at the gateline fails.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

For some colleagues, especially if they have a memorably unusual name, is the concern that if they have had a fatality and the family blamed the railway for the death then a potentially difficult situation could arise hence why all companies should accept alias names.

Does anyone know if this has ever occurred?
I don't know of that happening exactly, but there was a fatality down on SWT in recent years which saw the friends/family of a fatality victim attempt to attack the traincrew whilst they were dealing with it. So these sorts of individual do exist.

For the record, it was (rather obviously) in no way the fault of the driver.
 

mpthomson

Established Member
Joined
18 Feb 2016
Messages
1,383
Police do have numbers, but must identify themselves by rank and name too. Failing to do so risks jeopardising an investigation as it wasn't correctly performed.
This isn't true. There's no requirement for a police officer to provide their name, however they must provide a number (it being visible satisfies this, the rank is also visible). As an example, the traffic officer on Police Interceptors this week who, entirely legally, declined to provide his name for an 'auditor' who was filming/ interfering in an arrest.
 

Towers

Established Member
Joined
30 Aug 2021
Messages
2,998
Location
UK
This isn't true. There's no requirement for a police officer to provide their name, however they must provide a number (it being visible satisfies this, the rank is also visible). As an example, the traffic officer on Police Interceptors this week who, entirely legally, declined to provide his name for an 'auditor' who was filming/ interfering in an arrest.
Many/most PCs now have their initial and surname written below the collar number on their shoulders don't they?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top