bramling
Veteran Member
My understanding is if in relation to a byelaw matter then the answer is yes. Note the reference to byelaw matters though.
(And in this situation the member of staff is also required to provide ID, but not their name).
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Must staff identify themselves on demand?
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My understanding is if in relation to a byelaw matter then the answer is yes. Note the reference to byelaw matters though.
(And in this situation the member of staff is also required to provide ID, but not their name).
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Mcr Warrior
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Yes, and their address, if the person is reasonably suspected by an "authorised person" of a railway byelaw offence.
Concur with @bramling on this point. Of course, this then begs the question as to how the passenger is able to know that the "authorised person" is actually duly authorised, although it would be readily apparent if it were BTP officers in uniform.
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The problem with that point of view is that it assumes that:
a) the TOC never ignores a complaint - especially if ity wopuld be convenient at the time
and
b) all rail staff are honest in any conflict the customer is always assumed to be wrong.
Failure to acknowledge the human and systematic shortcomings of the railway, particularly in a commercially sensitive environment may be far more corrosive to the customer's sense of fairness that those within the railway family realise. Currently the railway is in receipt of considerable public financial support, and many posts here voice the opinion that despite its current difficulties with resourcing, it needs to win back and retain that public goodwill for its future survival. I enjoy rail travel and rarely have any crisicism for the railway's service offering with a basic understanding of how the service operates that many 'ordinary' passengers don't. Members here should realise that most passengers are not interested in how trains arrive for them and feel that if something is not delivering what was promised that they will expect to be treated as customers that have been let down. Just because staff are having a bad day, it doesn't mean that they should ignore the customer's problems. If they do, they shouldn't be surprised if the customer gets similarly irritated, and if the customer expresses an intent to formally pursue the issue away from the heat of the worsening encounter it is not reasonable to stymie the complainant's means of correctly submitting a such a complaint where both parties' view can be 'heard'.Apologies, I wasn't very clear! I meant that if you're relieved unexpectedly, e.g. by a trainer etc, either you'll already know them or they'd introduce themselves to you. Most crew would be very unlikely to just hand their train over mid-duty without establishing who and why!
bramling
Veteran Member
A lot depends on how people enter into a situation. Some people will have the people skills to get a good outcome. At the other end of the spectrum some people don’t have the people skills to save their life. One can only work from experience, however I’d suggest there’s a correlation between the latter group and those likely to resort to measures like demanding names or IDs.
In terms of complaints, one might be amazed at what comes in. For their part the industry could sometimes do better, it’s obvious even from here that “fob off” generic responses are common.
Where the industry could do better is expectation management. As you say, you have an elevated level of knowledge of how the system operates, and this leads to you having better-than-average satisfaction. At the end of the day the railway is primarily an engineering institution which carries passengers, and trying to pretend it’s John Lewis simply isn’t ever going to work.
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Ha - drivers do tend to be pretty quick to jump out of the seat. There were even stories where I used to work about a spotter in the 1990s who had acquired uniform and successfully offered to take drivers off on a few occasions. I can certainly imagine it has happened before.
If I don’t know the driver concerned (most often an instructor with a trainee) I will ask for their name in order to notify control. I must admit I wouldn’t normally ask for ID so long as they’re in uniform and there’s no cause for concern. I’ve also never once been asked for ID myself, even though my observation of the uniform policy is a little “creative” shall we say…
Llanigraham
On Moderation
I refused to let an Inspector from the RAIB into my signalbox until he provided ID, and even asked the Regional Manager for the Marches Line to do the same thing, since I had never met him or told he was coming. Got a comendation from him on my Records for the last one as I was the only one to do it in the 6 Boxes he had visited that day.
Ashley Hill
Established Member
In W&W days guards were issued name badges showing their full name. Many objected as they had unusual names so were allowed to have pseudonymous such as Robin Banks,John Holmes and Debbie Harry for example. If a passenger made a complaint it still found its way to the correct member of staff.
Giving your own name always makes it personal. "What are you doing about it Ashley?. "I'm going to see you after work Ashley". These are examples of things that were said to me after asking for a fare. Do I want to give such a person my real name? Certainly not! It can cause conflict as there is always the chance you could take such intimidation personally and react to it.
Giving your own name always makes it personal. "What are you doing about it Ashley?. "I'm going to see you after work Ashley". These are examples of things that were said to me after asking for a fare. Do I want to give such a person my real name? Certainly not! It can cause conflict as there is always the chance you could take such intimidation personally and react to it.
A pseudonym of John Holmes would get some sort of response, although not necessarily what the average person might expect.
Ashley Hill
Established Member
You had to know the person who used it........A pseudonym of John Holmes would get some sort of response, although not necessarily what the average person might expect.
GusB
Established Member
I've found this to be quite an interesting thread. I don't work for the railway and never have done, but I have been front-line staff for a number of different companies over the years, whether that's actual face-to-face contact or over the phone, and I can attest to the fact that there are some customers who do demand far more information from the people they encounter than they're actually entitled to. For me it was somewhat easier when it was face-to-face, because the customers most likely to kick up a fuss were known to managers and supervisors as being serial complainers and, while I might have been pulled aside for an "informal chat", that chat often resulted in a "well done for not losing the head with that moron"-type conversation rather than the disciplinary situation that serial complainers often demand.
My first name isn't that common, and while my surname isn't unique, it's certainly uncommon where I live. I'd be very hesitant to give it out should someone ask for it. When I was on the Safeway checkouts, my operator number was clearly printed on every receipt, and when I wasputting up with your abuse answering your calls about your electricity bills my agent ID was recorded any time I accessed anyone's account.
One objection that I came across on numerous occasions was "you've asked me for my name, address and postcode but you won't give me yours". The simple answer to that is that as an employee of the company you're calling, I'm contractually obliged to keep those details confidential; I don't have the same assurance that you'll do the same with mine.
My first name isn't that common, and while my surname isn't unique, it's certainly uncommon where I live. I'd be very hesitant to give it out should someone ask for it. When I was on the Safeway checkouts, my operator number was clearly printed on every receipt, and when I was
One objection that I came across on numerous occasions was "you've asked me for my name, address and postcode but you won't give me yours". The simple answer to that is that as an employee of the company you're calling, I'm contractually obliged to keep those details confidential; I don't have the same assurance that you'll do the same with mine.
jumble
Established Member
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I am confusedMost TOCs will have policies along the lines of needing to wear a name badge for customer facing roles (this may or may not include drivers, depending on your chosen point of view!), and also a need to wear I.D. when in any non-public area, which is a Transec (Government body) requirement on which the railway is audited (allegedly).
In these days of social media etc, it is not appropriate for any member of staff to be expected to offer their surname, nor is there ever a need for anybody to be furnished with this, and as such most frontline staff will have a namebadge showing just a first name. Managers, in my experience, tend to have their full name on their badge, for whatever reason. The Transec I.D. can be a thorny issue if a TOC requires it to be worn all the time, which has happened in the past, as it means by default that a colleague's full name is on show.
Most Metropolitan Police officers are obliged to have their surnames openly displayed so why do you think it inappropriate for rail staff to identify themselves ?
Gloster
Veteran Member
The great majority of people are not going to risk taking on the forces of law and order, but the railway is fair game. And this is not just the little scr*tes who want a laugh, but includes those who see themselves as ‘respectable’ citizens.
That FOI request simply says a name badge must be worn. Doesn't say it has to be their genuine name (and as I understand it in at least some forces where name badges are used pseudonyms on the badges are allowed as long as registered with the force as such).
The frontline railways toc staff aren't a Police force, so I do wonder how the two are mentioned in the same context so much.
So many railway staff explain the stance of their Toc on the subject and they work in the industry but non railway staff don't seem to believe them for some baffling reason.
Which is the simple way of ensuring the respectable (no insinuating inverted commas necessary) citizens who have a perfectly valid grievance can ensure any employee is identifiable to the TOC.
Do you not think that the burden of responsibility of a serving police officer is a wee bit greater than that of a member of rail staff?
A rather different situation, I would suggest!
Some, not all, especially ARV officers and the like.
For most London terminals this is indeed required.
bramling
Veteran Member
I’ve no idea the extent to which police officers use their real names or not, however I’m not sure comparisons are particularly helpful.
The same issues apply in respect of police officers, and if they do make themselves easy to trace in this way then they are simply leaving themselves open to problems.
I got tracked via social media to my workplace a few years ago, and I don’t even have a Facebook account of my own (I do have a pseudonym one to enable me to use groups, however there’s nothing on there which would identify me). In that instance it was harmless as it was simply a rail enthusiast who wanted something so no big deal, but still a bit unnerving just how easy it is to trace people.
Elecman
Established Member
It is a Mandatory requirement in all non public areas of ALL Network Rail Managed stations including all the Retail Tennants and not just Railway staff
Most of us where I am don’t actually display ID at all times (I know we should). But then train crew depots are generally more relaxed about these kinds of things and there isn’t a large turnover of new faces. I suspect it’s a different story if you’re in the NR corporate suite.
bramling
Veteran Member
Same at my place. No requirement to display ID in “operational” locations (which is quite surprising actually). There is a requirement to carry ID of course, which again for operating staff is a bit of a given otherwise they won’t be getting through things like ticket barriers. With the general growth in things like door combination keypads and the like anyone casual won’t be getting too far.
Possibly the bigger issue, and one which one day will probably cause an issue, is managing contractor provenance, especially at night. Anyone could stick an orange jacket on and have pretty much unfettered access to anywhere and anything. This is a very tough one to resolve, and is a much more significant risk than someone getting into a non-public area.
Only if staff aren't being challenged effectively. Most stations are pretty hot on this sort of thing, plus they have to sign in and prove things like method statements / risk assessments. At night it's also much easier for people to spot strange stuff happening on CCTV. They won't be getting "unfettered access" to most places which have combination locks or passcodes.
bramling
Veteran Member
I have (legitimately) been round some very interesting places at night without anyone batting an eyelid, including in a part of the world which would be regarded by most as pretty security sensitive. Urban explorers have been able to do likewise without detection, and they weren’t even wearing hi-vi gear.
I do think sometimes NR have a bit of a strange bee in their bonnet about this kind of thing. Obviously it’s desirable that non public areas are kept non public, as with most workplaces, but I’m not sure what getting into the non public bits of a station would really achieve for those with nefarious intent. Surely they’d be more interested in staging some kind of big spectacular in the public areas!?
I have been in to the corporate bit at my London terminal (with all kinds of silly “computer says no” show-ID-to-a-stranger-requirements, even when you’ve already shown it to the same person that day, and you’re accompanied by colleagues who know you personally). Once you’re in it’s just your bog standard office suite - it isn’t exactly the inner workings of GCHQ.
Plus it would be easy enough for someone determined enough to get a job as a cleaning contractor with minimal vetting and then be quite legitimately allowed access.
As you were legitimately there I suppose there's no issue really although of course it is good practice to ask people for ID anyway for security reasons and it is drilled into most employees. Again how much this occurs in practice probably varies at location. It also depends how important the areas these "urban explorers" are going into and whether they were security sensitive areas.
Obviously people get onto parts of the railway they shouldn't - just look at the grafitti on trackside walls and signal cabinets!
bramling
Veteran Member
It does seem that someone getting into an office suite and fishing for sensitive data is considered to be the biggest issue!
Again we seem to be in the territory of “seen to do something”. Naturally to some extent I suppose this does create a deterrent atmosphere, but it isn’t going to stop someone whose heart is set on doing something nefarious.
At several locations on the railway I've worked at, getting to a suitable location for "sensitive data" would involve passing through 1 external door (with a door code), another internal door (with a code or swipe) and passing multiple staff.
Northern_guard
Member
Headcode and the time will be sufficient.
Why a passenger needs to know my name is beyond me and for that reason they won't ever get it. If they're that desperate to complain about me, the relevant info to trace me back to a certain train is there.
Why a passenger needs to know my name is beyond me and for that reason they won't ever get it. If they're that desperate to complain about me, the relevant info to trace me back to a certain train is there.
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