MPs expected to attack DfT over Thameslink

[Smethwickian]

A report scheduled to be published by MPs tomorrow (Tuesday, October 29) is expected to warn that the £3.55 billion Thameslink rail project might not be delivered on time.

The House of Commons’ public accounts committee questioned the Department for Transport’s handling of the north-south cross-London project which is due for completion in 2018.

The committee's report is expected to point out that the DfT's award of a £1.6 billion private finance contract for new trains for Thameslink was delayed by more than three years and that despite the need for the Thameslink upgrade being identified as far back as 1989, passengers will now be waiting until the early 2020s to get the benefit.

It is understood the report will criticise the department's approach to letting the franchise to operate the new service because it was not joined up with the rest of the Thameslink programme, highlighting weaknesses in the department's programme management capability.

The committee is concerned about the department's skills and capacity to complete Thameslink by 2018, alongside its ambitious wider portfolio of programmes and projects.

Not sure if there's anything there that's not already obvious, but it's always interesting when it's officially pointed out for the statutory record. I would expect the report to be available on Parliament's website tomorrow - I will post a link if able, or someone else might kindly do so if they find it first.

 

[HSTEd]

I am sure Thameslink 2000 will be delivered on time.....

 

[YorkshireBear]

I am sure Thameslink 2000 will be delivered on time.....

Burn.


Thought Network Rail had everything under control? I wasn't aware the project was even behind (compared to the announcements and confirmation in early 201*s.

It is not an easy project and shows many of the challenges of upgrading an operational railway. (HS2 alliance take note)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The PAC's only job is to criticise government spend after the event.
They do it very well.
It won't affect anything, except possibly the reputations of ministers.
There's only so many times you can cry "wolf".

 

[YorkshireBear]

The PAC's only job is to criticise government spend after the event.
They do it very well.
It won't affect anything, except possibly the reputations of ministers.
There's only so many times you can cry "wolf".

Oh it is them.... fair play.

 

[Bald Rick]

Things have moved on since the PAC reviews in the Summer. Not least a train order.

The Programme is still on schedule, indeed London Bridge is marginally ahead of schedule, and Dec 18 is the completion date for the programme to be complete in terms of outputs.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

As far as the new trains are concerned - yes , the financial "meltdown" from 2008 caused a major financing issue , hence delaying the order , but the new class 700's are now firmly ordered and good progress is being made. Interim orders for the class 37x to bide over FCC and Southern are in hand and being delivered , - and the newly rebuilt Farringdon and Blackfriars are there for anyone to see and use (not to mention 12 car platform extensions and so on north of St Pancras and 2 new depots at Hornsey and Three Bridges are being built as we speak)

OK - later than we thought - and relief cannot come soon enough - but a great railway service in a few (short) years time.

(Just a thought - look at what happened to Crossrail - which , had it not been for Parliamentary kerfuffle - would now be so much taken for granted and clocking up its second decade of service...!!)

 

[Eagle]

I am sure Thameslink 2000 will be delivered on time.....

Hey, at least it's not as delayed as Crossrail. (NSE wanted that done by about 1997 IIRC.)

 

[YorkshireBear]

Interesting for me that the financial crisis delaying Thameslink has led to us having more EMUs available for cascade with more 37X's built.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Actually this is not a bad report. http://www.parliament.uk/business/c...ic-accounts-committee/news/thameslink-report/

The criticism is mainly about the delay in signing the train contract.
The absolute star is Michael Hurn, currently leading the Thameslink programme at DfT (he previously worked on ECML electrification and Jubilee Line/ELL extensions for TfL).
He had all the detail, did not prevaricate, and seriously impressed the MPs.
In fact they wanted him to stay on Thameslink instead of moving to HS2 which is what DfT plans.
It seems the PFI procurement for the trains was driven by government (Labour) policy and not by economics or "value for money".
Another interesting debate is about the value attributed to commuter travel as opposed to business travel.
The MP for Littleport kept banging on about his FCC commute via Cambridge.

The photo caption for the Thameslink report on the Commons web site helpfully shows a rather nice scene somewhere in the northern hills, with a class 185 Desiro and a Pacer passing each other.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Hey, at least it's not as delayed as Crossrail. (NSE wanted that done by about 1997 IIRC.)

I remember commuting along the Central line 1987-1989 and there was talk of a whole new line to relieve the Central line then. Thats 25 years ago and they have now started building it !.

Yes when it was called "Thamslink 2000" it sounded rather modern and fresh. But here we are waiting for it 13 years after 2000. I know the platforms have been lengthened to accommodate 12 car trains but the off peak services North from East Croydon all run as 4 cars. So from 09:32 onwards I risk being left behind. Even at 10:32 the Thameslink service has delays due to the long station dwell times resulting from people being edged further into the carriages.

At least with Crossrail its largely a whole new line so less disruption I hope.

I hope HS2 does not become a casualty of any reputational damage to those who should be organising it.

 

[cle]

It's a shame that they aren't a bit clearer on the benefits in regards to pathing, termini and through journeys. It's all focused on Blackfriars, London Bridge and Farringdon.

It's a shame frequencies aren't actually increasing by much anywhere (that are confirmed) or that they've not identified the routes as yet. The Wimbledon Loop u-turn is pathetic also.

 

[Eagle]

The reason they haven't identified the routes yet is that (south of the core at least) it's up to the franchise bidders to decide.

 

[swt_passenger]

It's a shame frequencies aren't actually increasing by much anywhere (that are confirmed) or that they've not identified the routes as yet. The Wimbledon Loop u-turn is pathetic also.

I don't think 'frequency increases' have ever really been part of the advertised benefits, except through the core section. Even then the 24 tph through the core was always understood to be primarily caused by connecting the ECML/GN routes, so anyone expecting frequency increases on the MML wasn't really paying attention.

Likewise, south of the river, it has always been understood that the total 24 tph would be diversions of existing services from their current termini.

The real advantage (as it appears to me) is the proportion of peak services that will be operated at 12 car length.

 

[Class377/5]

Did no-one notice then that this is a reprint of the May report into Thameslink hence some of the out dated view on some parts of the project as Bald Rick points out.

Just hope the PAC leaders comment of a 12 carriage coach was kept in, just to show how well they've grasped the finer points they attack on.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The photo caption for the Thameslink report on the Commons web site helpfully shows a rather nice scene somewhere in the northern hills, with a class 185 Desiro and a Pacer passing each other.

So it is not only the BBC whose knowledge of the correct rolling stock in the right area is at fault..:roll:

Pacers on Thameslink..hock:

 

[Class377/5]

Network Rail used HST and slam door trains in public photos of the electric only Blackfriars rebuild and had a massive car sized image in the private area of Blackfriars rebuild with an SWT 455 in the station.

 

[swt_passenger]

I noticed this exchange, the DfT are trying to explain that Siemens have a track record of delivering rolling stock to timescales:

Q55 Chair: Give me an example—where?
Michael Hurn: For South West Trains, for example.
Q56 Chair: Was that delivered early, on time, or
late?
Michael Hurn: I don’t have the information to hand.
Q57 Chair: Well, you must know.
Michael Hurn: Yes.
Q58 Chair: Was it early, late, on time, on budget?
Michael Hurn: They delivered—
Q59 Chair: You said that they have a pedigree and
have done really well. All I am really asking you for
is an example. You say to me, “South West Trains”,
but I haven’t a clue; I am not a train expert. For South
West Trains, were there carriages as well? Do you
know, Mr Higgins? Somebody must know.
David Higgins: Yes. That was Desiros.

My bolding.

They really do need to spoon feed this info sometimes...

 

[cle]

Will there be an associated frequency increases - so not on Thameslink but on Southern or Southeastern due to, for example: Tanners Hill doubling, additional lines/platforms at London Bridge, Bermondsey fly-under, Greenwich line consolidated to Cannon St...

I know these are mainly for sorting out reliability/London Bridge delays, and yes they will allow peak Brightons to run via London Bridge finally (and no more SE trains non-stopping LDB), but other than that, I'd expect some knock on benefits to the networks parallel to the Thameslink routes too. All those improvements should really create some paths you'd hope.

 

[swt_passenger]

Not significantly. The predictions in the South London RUS, which has some reasonably clear diagrams that can be easily compared for the 2010 and 2015 (now 2018) KO2 numbers of paths, only showed an increase from 84 to 86 overall tph.

That's based on a 2010 split of:
30 SN terminating,
29 to Charing Cross,
25 to Cannon St.

Their future ratio of routes through London Bridge after KO2 became:

20tph into the terminating platforms
18tph to Thameslink (now only 16?)
28tph to Charing Cross
20tph to Cannon Street. (Now increased slightly to 22 or 23 is it? If anyone knows exactly please chip in...)

Now the KO2 numbers have changed a bit since then, as a result of altering the ratio of Thameslink services via London Bridge and Elephant & Castle, predominantly due to binning some ex-SE services to Thameslink in favour of staying with Cannon St; but I believe the 'grand total' of 86 is still about right. So there's nowhere really gets a significant change in frequency.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Now the KO2 numbers have changed a bit since then, as a result of altering the ratio of Thameslink services via London Bridge and Elephant & Castle, predominantly due to binning some ex-SE services to Thameslink in favour of staying with Cannon St; but I believe the 'grand total' of 86 is still about right. So there's nowhere really gets a significant change in frequency.
[I)

But there is an increase in capacity through SE being able to run longer trains on Metro thanks to stock cascades , more 12 car trains through the Central Core + "connectivity" off the GN. Losing "pointless" services like the St Albans - Bellingham ideas is a good thing.

 

[swt_passenger]

But there is an increase in capacity through SE being able to run longer trains on Metro thanks to stock cascades , more 12 car trains through the Central Core + "connectivity" off the GN. Losing "pointless" services like the St Albans - Bellingham ideas is a good thing.

Which is basically what I had said initially, in my post made at 1319, on the previous page. We'd already covered that bit...

 

[Class377/5]

Now the KO2 numbers have changed a bit since then, as a result of altering the ratio of Thameslink services via London Bridge and Elephant & Castle, predominantly due to binning some ex-SE services to Thameslink in favour of staying with Cannon St; but I believe the 'grand total' of 86 is still about right. So there's nowhere really gets a significant change in frequency.
[I)

But there is an increase in capacity through SE being able to run longer trains on Metro thanks to stock cascades , more 12 car trains through the Central Core + "connectivity" off the GN. Losing "pointless" services like the St Albans - Bellingham ideas is a good thing.

Will point out that its 12 car routes not 12 car services. There has been 8 cars on Bedford to Brighton in the peak periods on pervious drafts.

 

[Bald Rick]

Probably time for me to step in.

Mr Hurn has long since moved on.

Some routes (for which read stations) will see frequency increases, as specified by the new franchise ITT. Notably on the ECML, but also Purley / E Croydon to London Bridge fast. Although it is up to the bidders to come up with the final answer.

Likely to be:

CHX 28
CST 24
LBG LL 20
LBG TL 16

88

 

[jon0844]

Given how worried I am about delays through the TL core affecting services on the ECML, I'd really like to hear that there would still be trains going from King's Cross to WGC (as in the xx57 and xx27 semi-fast trains that run in the evening peak) so you'd be able to expect them to leave on time (so as to be able to get a bus at the other end) and also stand a chance of getting a seat as long as you turn up in time.

Unlike having to try and find a seat on a train that has come from further away and might well be late, causing even more people to pile on.

In fact, I don't much fancy having to wait for my train on just one platform like a tube train - especially a platform with next to no phone coverage and pretty ropey Wi-Fi!

 

[Class377/5]

The peak extras from Kings Cross are mentioned as continuing in the TSGN ITT. Why I've stated the whole 365 fleet is required post KO2 as the 700 don't actually replace all that many services as people think.

 

[HSTEd]

So if it can't even replace all KGX suburban services.... what's the point of that tunnel? Its just an expensive boondoggle.

EDIT: The specimen timetable on Wikipedia lists 8 GN paths, add six from Moorgate and that's pretty much everything surely. Can't run many more than that on the ECML

 

[jon0844]

It's nice to think that people will be able to travel straight from the ECML down to southern destinations* but besides my concerns about time keeping when so many trains will be running on just two tracks, I really don't fancy turning up at KGX and walking over to St Pancras and having to stand on a crowded platform amongst people all wanting to go to other places - as well as trying to board my train that is now already crowded, instead of nice and empty and with plenty of time to get on and get comfortable.

But if there are some trains still going from KGX then I'm happy. For most of the time, I'll not care about the tunnel and link - and just hope that our trains get priority over any late runners from the TL side!

* People talk of being able to go from places like Cambridge or Stevenage to Brighton for the day - but has this ever been a planned service anyway?

 

[HSTEd]

But that is a capacity of 116 cars an hour for GN, excluding Cambridge Cruisers. That is probably sufficient if six car Desiro Cities end up at Moorgate.
Adding peak extras into KGX on top of that just seems to be rather gilding the lilly.

 

[Mikey C]

I remember commuting along the Central line 1987-1989 and there was talk of a whole new line to relieve the Central line then. Thats 25 years ago and they have now started building it !.

Yes when it was called "Thamslink 2000" it sounded rather modern and fresh. But here we are waiting for it 13 years after 2000. I know the platforms have been lengthened to accommodate 12 car trains but the off peak services North from East Croydon all run as 4 cars. So from 09:32 onwards I risk being left behind. Even at 10:32 the Thameslink service has delays due to the long station dwell times resulting from people being edged further into the carriages.

At least with Crossrail its largely a whole new line so less disruption I hope.

I hope HS2 does not become a casualty of any reputational damage to those who should be organising it.

I would have though any delays with the TL upgrade would actually show that building an all new railway (e.g. HS2) is a lot easier and simpler than upgrading existing ones (the cheap HS2 alternative) and thus improve the case for HS2!