MPs expected to attack DfT over Thameslink

[swt_passenger]

Some routes (for which read stations) will see frequency increases, as specified by the new franchise ITT. Notably on the ECML, but also Purley / E Croydon to London Bridge fast. Although it is up to the bidders to come up with the final answer.

Likely to be:

CHX 28
CST 24
LBG LL 20
LBG TL 16

88

Aye, but whether it is a total of 86 or 88 tph through London Bridge approaches is still only minor alteration to frequencies at that point, because the major part of the whole service is still heading for a finite number of terminating platforms at London Bridge low-level, Cannon St and Charing X.

I think cle was hoping that all the work he listed to the east of London Bridge was somehow going to improve frequencies generally on all routes. In the case of SE services particularly, the majority of changes will be to tie routes down to single destinations. Infrastructure work such as Tanners Hill Flydown has far more to do with sorting out routes in advance (because running junctions nearer London Bridge will not be there any more), than providing extra services...

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I would have though any delays with the TL upgrade would actually show that building an all new railway (e.g. HS2) is a lot easier and simpler than upgrading existing ones (the cheap HS2 alternative) and thus improve the case for HS2!

There was an odd example of 'advance information' in The Times yesterday, their article about yesterday's Thameslink report (paywalled) was headlined:

"Thameslink fiasco likely to continue for another decade"

and started off with

"The Government’s ability to manage large-scale transport projects will come under withering attack today in a critique by MPs of a long delayed upgrade to Thameslink, the busiest train network in Britain."

I didn't think that was the actual tone of the report, and I saw nothing at all to suggest a 2023 completion?

 

[jon0844]

As said, the problems with the Thameslink upgrade work (if there is indeed a problem, which isn't totally clear) is much like the WCML upgrade work - and definitely supports the argument that an all new line is always going to be less disruptive.

And what about the costs of simply moving things around to enable the public to still use the trains despite construction work? Hundreds of man hours to erect new barriers, secure areas, new signs and temporary bridges/ramps/stairs etc?

The same goes on motorways where it can take ages just to move lanes around and ensure all the barriers, cones, lights and so on are set. Clearly a new road wouldn't need all that, at least until you are ready to merge it into the main road network. Ditto HS2.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

... besides my concerns about time keeping when so many trains will be running on just two tracks, I really don't fancy turning up at KGX and walking over to St Pancras and having to stand on a crowded platform amongst people all wanting to go to other places - as well as trying to board my train that is now already crowded, instead of nice and empty and with plenty of time to get on and get comfortable.

There is another major disadvantage to the 'improvement' of running trains through St Pancras low-level, and onward to destinations south of the river. At present, if I want to catch the tube from Kings Cross, the Underground northern ticket hall is but a short walk from Platforms 9-11. If my train goes instead into the main shed (Platforms 0-8), it is also a short walk to the original Underground ticket hall. I don't relish the idea of having to come up the escalators from the St Pancras low-level platforms, however, and walking to King's Cross, to reach the exact same place I can currently get to within 30 seconds of the train doors opening! The alternative being a long walk through a shopping complex masquerading as a working station, pushing through crowds of dawdling shoppers for whom not blocking a direct walking route to the tube is not uppermost in their thoughts :roll:

Indeed, in the future, if I wanted to get to, say, Baker Street on the underground, it would probably be quicker to remain on the Thameslink train, go to Farringdon, and change to an Eastbound underground train, than to do all that walking! In essence, going one stop in the opposite direction to where I want to go will prove quicker than all that faffing about within the St Pancras / Kings Cross station(s) complex.

 

[Bald Rick]

Indeed, in the future, if I wanted to get to, say, Baker Street on the underground, it would probably be quicker to remain on the Thameslink train, go to Farringdon, and change to an Eastbound underground train, than to do all that walking! In essence, going one stop in the opposite direction to where I want to go will prove quicker than all that faffing about within the St Pancras / Kings Cross station(s) complex.

Indeed so, which is exactly what most people from the current Thameslink services on the MML do when heading anywhere west on the circle line. No hardship at all.

 

[HSTEd]

Isn't that possibility one of the major advantages of the concept?

 

[Class377/5]

Its already quicker from the Northern Line to change onto the Circle/Met/H&C to go to Farrington rather than actually walk to the Thameslink platforms straight from the Northern's at Kings Cross.

 

[cle]

swt_passenger - yep pretty much.

For example, might the Tanners doubling allow additional trains from the Nunhead direction towards Hither Green (which would have less conflicts than the current Bexleyheath route) - either via Sidcup or Grove Park? Or indeed towards Ladywell.
And either from Victoria or Thameslink/Blackfriars.

And would there be an enhanced service between Cannon Street and somewhere on the Greenwich line, with more consolidated service? Possibly short running - I believe Plumstead used to have some? But Abbey Wood might make more sense from 2018.

Also, will Cannon Street now be open on all days and until last trains?

 

[swt_passenger]

I believe Tanners Hill is mainly there to replicate crossovers nearer London Bridge that are removed because their current location is cut by the main Thameslink route. The wording in a network change notice for the London Bridge works is:

"Double tracking of the Tanners Hill fly down is required due to the removal of the Spa Road Junction, and to provide double junctions
at both Tanners Hill Junction and Lewisham Vale Junctions with the main lines."

I don't think that either Cannon St or Charing Cross can handle an increased number of trains as they are both limited by current platform numbers, that seems to prevent significant frequency changes, although frequencies to a particular terminus may increase with corresponding reductions to the other one.

You'd expect Cannon St to be open longer, but perhaps everything will be different on Sundays anyway, perhaps with general reductions in the Sunday timetable more flat crossings become usable.

Problem is everything published describes the weekday peak, so to certain extent its all guesswork what might happen late at night or at weekends...

 

[nomis1066]

I am sure Thameslink 2000 will be delivered on time.....

Er, I recall the cynical ones amongst my colleagues thinking Thameslink 3000 might have been a more appropriate title......

 

[jon0844]

Er, I recall the cynical ones amongst my colleagues thinking Thameslink 3000 might have been a more appropriate title......

They'll be able to really boast about it being completed ahead of schedule then!