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Motorail Services Trivia

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I haven't been able to find an exact date when the Fort William Motorail service commenced, but it was when the Fort William Sleeper became a stand-alone service, circa 1992. A pair of vans from/to Euston comprised the Motorail provision as far as I can recall.
I remember there being Motorail vans in the formation when I travelled overnight from Euston to Fort Willliam in June 1991.

The Fort William sleeper became separate from the morning Glasgow-Mallaig (and evening southbound) when the Sprinters were introduced, which was in 1989.
 
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Rescars

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Further back (c 1970), I remember going by Motorail on family holidays to both the West Country (St Austell) and Scotland (Perth). Travelling in Mark 1 FKs with open carflats at the rear an an excellent dining car serving real meals. Captivated me as a kid! Leaving Kensington Olympia involved the carriages (with passengers aboard) setting back to couple up to the carflats. Traction to Cornwall was with a Western all the way. Scotland was more involved. Diesel to Willesden, electric to Preston, then diesel the rest of the way. The WCML was being electrified at the time, so somewhere in Cumbria we set back and did a bit of wrong line working with a pilotman aboard. All very exciting! I recall luggage had to be removed from roof-racks (pretty obviously!) and then my Dad was expected to drive the car on and off at each end. I think he found that quite exciting too!
 

Springs Branch

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However, BR was not averse to using electric traction for short sectors then and changing engines for through trains . . . . e.g. at Birmingham New Street and Crewe, rather than running diesel-hauled trains under the wires as now.
Certainly, for quite a time BR had an overt policy of always using electric traction whenever possible 'under the wires'.

It led to seemingly odd situations like the overnight York - Shrewsbury/Aberystwyth Postal changing from diesel to electric for the run between Stockport and Crewe, then back to diesel at Crewe (same in the reverse direction).

This period probably more-or-less coincided with the heyday of Motorail, so it's plausible that the Newton-le-Willows - St Austell Motorail might well have been electrically hauled between NLW and Crewe - if the service had survived long enough for the Electric Scot electrification to be completed.

. . . . . we left the car with railway staff outside the station at the southern end, and we entered the station like ordinary passengers. They loaded the cars onto carflats . . .
I recall this as being much more civilised than the process later experienced arriving at Crewe off another Motorail service. There we were were marched out of the station, past the Crewe arms, and down to what may have been an old cattle dock. It was dark, approx 11pm, and all the passengers had to stand around for quite a while till the carflats were leisurely tripped over. Then the owners had to get onto the carflats and drive their own cars over some form of bridging boards. Quite scary in the pitch black.
I remember reading somewhere (can't point to precisely where) that the loading procedure was changed to punters driving their own cars on and off trains following a large number of complaints and claims for damage to vehicles when BR staff did it.

At the time, I had this mental image of Old Sid the porter, who had worked on The Railways for donkey's years, man and boy, and for the last year or so before retirement was given a cushy job at the Motorail terminal loading and unloaded passengers' cars. Except Old Sid had never held a driving licence in his life!

Travelling in Mark 1 FKs with open carflats at the rear an an excellent dining car serving real meals. . . .
I suppose the Motorail network was a very convenient way for BR to get some good (albeit seasonal) use out of dozens and dozens of reasonably new (at the time) Mk.1 FK coaches which had been made redundant from regular, long-distance main-line services by the introduction of Mk.2 stock.

By the golden age of Motorail, secondary routes and relief trains which still relied on Mk.1 rolling stock probably had relatively little (legitimate) demand for first class accommodation, which could be easily met by one CK, BFK or even the ever-versatile BCK - leaving lots of fully First Class coaches with nothing to do.
 

jon0844

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While cars are now far more luxurious and comfortable, the brochures mention the one key benefit; being able to relax on your journey up and down - so you aren't tired on arrival, or having to endure a long drive home.

Now you have the high fuel costs to consider too.

Clearly these services aren't coming back, but imagine how great they would be today? With EVs, you could potentially even offer a charging service for the journey!
 

Bald Rick

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While cars are now far more luxurious and comfortable, the brochures mention the one key benefit; being able to relax on your journey up and down - so you aren't tired on arrival, or having to endure a long drive home.

In my experience, with the comfort of modern cars, passengers in cars are relaxing on a long drive! (The passengers I drive around are, at least).
 

GS250

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While cars are now far more luxurious and comfortable, the brochures mention the one key benefit; being able to relax on your journey up and down - so you aren't tired on arrival, or having to endure a long drive home.

Now you have the high fuel costs to consider too.

Clearly these services aren't coming back, but imagine how great they would be today? With EVs, you could potentially even offer a charging service for the journey!
I suppose it also comes down to motorail costs v car hire? I've done a couple of trips to the Highlands this way. You can still hire a noddy car out for £50 a day.
 

Bald Rick

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I suppose it also comes down to motorail costs v car hire? I've done a couple of trips to the Highlands this way. You can still hire a noddy car out for £50 a day.

Indeed. I estimate that to break even for a putative Anglo-Scots motorail service, the average price for a car one way would be in the region of £400-£500, on top of the passenger fares. This assumes they are travelling on the same train to/from the same stations.

The price would come down by at least half if you could find, say, 80 cars and their passengers all wanting to go the same route, at the same time (as per eurotunnel), as you could run a separate car train. But it does need volume, and also the infrastructure to deal with the cars. And frankly, driving would be quicker.
 

The Planner

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Interested to know where at most of these stations you actually got the cars on the trains? For example Birmingham is on one of the maps, can't work out where that could be, unless it wasn't actually Birmingham itself.
 

Bald Rick

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Interested to know where at most of these stations you actually got the cars on the trains? For example Birmingham is on one of the maps, can't work out where that could be, unless it wasn't actually Birmingham itself.

Am I imagining use of one of the Docks off P12?
 

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Interested to know where at most of these stations you actually got the cars on the trains? For example Birmingham is on one of the maps, can't work out where that could be, unless it wasn't actually Birmingham itself.

It was at Sutton Coldfield, the former LNWR station. There are photos of it on the warwickshirerailways.com site.
 

zwk500

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Yes! They either sleep or watch you tube.
When I was a teenager 10-15 years ago you couldn't get decent mobile internet, and at 6ft tall can't comfortably sleep (especially if a particular parent was driving), so the only thing left to do on a 4hr car journey was to wind up your brother...
 

GS250

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I believe the workings on the WCML quite often produced an earlier AC electric locomotive on the dedicated motorail diagrams. Certainly the case in the early - mid 80s.

What was used from Kensington Olympia to Willesden section and did the AC electric get 'dragged'?
 

Ken H

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I believe the workings on the WCML quite often produced an earlier AC electric locomotive on the dedicated motorail diagrams. Certainly the case in the early - mid 80s.

What was used from Kensington Olympia to Willesden section and did the AC electric get 'dragged'?
Cross Country switch from Diesel to Electric was done at Mitre Bridge Jct by loco change. Don't know if Motorail used the same procedure.
 

Rescars

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I remember reading somewhere (can't point to precisely where) that the loading procedure was changed to punters driving their own cars on and off trains following a large number of complaints and claims for damage to vehicles when BR staff did it.
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At the time, I had this mental image of Old Sid the porter, who had worked on The Railways for donkey's years, man and boy, and for the last year or so before retirement was given a cushy job at the Motorail terminal loading and unloaded passengers' cars. Except Old Sid had never held a driving licence in his life!
I actually witnessed one such incident at Kensington Olympia. A rake of Cartics was being unloaded from an incoming sleeper service. On the top deck was a rather stately Rover (a P4 I guess). This was being driven off by a member of BR staff with some gusto. Unfortunately, travelling with some speed over the hump between two wagons the car bounced enough for its roof to connect (very noisily) with the edge of the platform roof. Result - lots of red faces, one dented Rover and an incandescent owner. Ouch!! Dad delighted he was allowed to drive our car onto the Carflats himself.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I believe the workings on the WCML quite often produced an earlier AC electric locomotive on the dedicated motorail diagrams. Certainly the case in the early - mid 80s.

What was used from Kensington Olympia to Willesden section and did the AC electric get 'dragged'?
As I recall, there was no dragging. IIRC a 47 worked the train to Willesden and then came off. Presumably the electric came from Willesden TMD.
 
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Gloster

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I believe the workings on the WCML quite often produced an earlier AC electric locomotive on the dedicated motorail diagrams. Certainly the case in the early - mid 80s.

What was used from Kensington Olympia to Willesden section and did the AC electric get 'dragged'?

Just discovered something on the Internet by googling Mitre Bridge Junction Signal Box (Extracts from ‘The Memoirs of a Nobody’ by Frederick W Brooks (1917-1999)) in which he says that the overnight Motorails to and from Southern changed locos northbound at Willesden Power Box and southbound at Mitre Bridge Junction.

Presumably the diesel loco was whatever was handy at Willesden. The ones to the Southern seem to have had locos supplied by the SR.
 

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The Kensington Olympia to Mitre Bridge (and vice versa) motorail and related empty stock moves were mainly hauled by Class 25s (often in pairs) in the period 1975 to 1978. There were hardly any LMR type 4s around Willesden. Type 4s from other Regions generally worked into Willesden with freight working out and back.
 

Magdalia

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The Kensington Olympia to Mitre Bridge (and vice versa) motorail and related empty stock moves were mainly hauled by Class 25s (often in pairs) in the period 1975 to 1978. There were hardly any LMR type 4s around Willesden. Type 4s from other Regions generally worked into Willesden with freight working out and back.
When I first started working in London I briefly lived in Kensington, and one evening did see a Motorail depart from Olympia hauled by a pair of class 25s.
 

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According to the warwickshirerailways.com site, Sutton Coldfield and Newton-le-Willows were both closed so that traffic using the two could be concentrated at Crewe. I wonder if Worcester was opened at the same time to retain traffic from the southern part of the West Midlands to the South West. If you have to drive for an hour or so north, only to come south again on the train, many drivers would just drive anyway. Worcester is in the right direction and then you take the train on for the rest of the journey.
 

30907

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According to the warwickshirerailways.com site, Sutton Coldfield and Newton-le-Willows were both closed so that traffic using the two could be concentrated at Crewe. I wonder if Worcester was opened at the same time to retain traffic from the southern part of the West Midlands to the South West. If you have to drive for an hour or so north, only to come south again on the train, many drivers would just drive anyway. Worcester is in the right direction and then you take the train on for the rest of the journey.
I suspect Worcester as a Motorail terminal coincides with the opening of the M5 through the West Mids, and its demise with the opening of the Avonmouth section...
 

D6130

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The price would come down by at least half if you could find, say, 80 cars and their passengers all wanting to go the same route, at the same time (as per eurotunnel), as you could run a separate car train. But it does need volume, and also the infrastructure to deal with the cars. And frankly, driving would be quicker.
This was what BR did in order to save money in the last few years of Motorail services. All was fine and dandy until one fine Summer's morning when the refreshed and relaxed holidaymakers alighted at Inverness....only to find that their cars were still sitting at Nuneaton behind a failed class 81 with its brakes locked on.
 

Gloster

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I suspect Worcester as a Motorail terminal coincides with the opening of the M5 through the West Mids, and its demise with the opening of the Avonmouth section...

I would think that if it wasn’t a general fall in Motorail traffic that put paid to the Worcester-St Austell working, then it was probably the improvements to the A30 and A38 beyond the end of the M5. I am pretty sure that it continued after the M5 reached Exminster in 1977.
 

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Detail on which car carriers were used when and where for Motorail is sparse.

On a family holiday in the late 1960s (best guess), I have a recollection of the car travelling inside attached to a sleeper from London to Penzance, which suggests a GUV. Does that seem likely ?
 

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Detail on which car carriers were used when and where for Motorail is sparse.

On a family holiday in the late 1960s (best guess), I have a recollection of the car travelling inside attached to a sleeper from London to Penzance, which suggests a GUV. Does that seem likely ?

As far as I can make out, operations where Motorail was just a small part of a regular passenger train, rather than a completely separate working, tended to be a GUV. Additionally, in the early days, before the full fleet of Carflats were converted and there weren’t that many Cartics, GUV were used in some of the dedicated Motorail trains: the Surbiton-Okehampton being probably the best known. (But also see the photos on the Sutton Coldfield (LNWR) page of warwickshirerailways.com .) So, yes, if you travelled on the regular sleeper and your car accompanied you, it was probably in a GUV.

Latterly I believe that the westbound GUV went down on the Paddington-Penzance newspaper train. Some friends married in the late 1970s and on their wedding night caught the sleeper to Penzance as they had been loaned a cottage for their honeymoon. (Yes, the wedding night in a sleeping compartment.) A relative paid for Susie’s Mini to travel with them on the Motorail. When they arrived at Penzance, there was the Mini waiting for them, complete with a little bouquet of flowers and a card wishing them the best of luck for married life from the staff at Penzance. What Alan could not work out was: as they had left the train as soon as it arrived, how could they have got the car out into the parking area so quickly. So I revealed one of the unsolved mysteries of their wedding night.
 

Mollington St

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Carrying on the thread - Where did cars load etc, and between which stations could you travel

Here are some more scans to add to the story

1957 Car-Sleeper Service - London Kings Cross to Scotland and then a September 1961 Handbill , that details stations and fares.

I will keeping adding as i find more and get them scanned and listed on my site - Transport Past Times
 

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najaB

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@Mollington St , many thanks for uploading these images, but is there any chance you could upload in a higher resolution - with a watermark as necessary to protect your proprietary interest - as some of them are too low-res to be readable? I had a look on your site and it looked to me that you have larger images but scanned at the same resolution.
 

30907

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As far as I can make out, operations where Motorail was just a small part of a regular passenger train, rather than a completely separate working, tended to be a GUV. Additionally, in the early days, before the full fleet of Carflats were converted and there weren’t that many Cartics, GUV were used in some of the dedicated Motorail trains: the Surbiton-Okehampton being probably the best known. (But also see the photos on the Sutton Coldfield (LNWR) page of warwickshirerailways.com .) So, yes, if you travelled on the regular sleeper and your car accompanied you, it was probably in a GUV.
There were also some TCV Tiered Car Vans, I think on ER Car-Sleepers.
 
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