Most expensive TOC

[suzanneparis]

Does anyone know who the most expensive TOC is.

By most expensive I mean the one that charges the most on average per mile for standard (not off peak) fares.

My route Leicester to London with EMT is very expensive, in my opinion, before 9am. But perhaps there are even more expensive TOCs out there?

Anyone know.

 

[Clip]

Well Virgin must be up there on both coasts really.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Does anyone know who the most expensive TOC is.
By most expensive I mean the one that charges the most on average per mile for standard (not off peak) fares.

My route Leicester to London with EMT is very expensive, in my opinion, before 9am. But perhaps there are even more expensive TOCs out there?

Your fare of £149 is £1.50 per mile for an Anytime Return (99.25 miles).
Feel sorry for Stockport-Watford Jn folk on Virgin at £333 for 161 miles via Stoke (£2.09 per mile).
Travelling via London costs £369!
Manchester-London is marginally better value.

I've no idea if this is the highest though.
I imagine some short hops on the inter city TOCs could be more expensive.
Grouping of stations means there are some jumps in the fares.
For example Penzance-Wick is £450 (AR), but so is Liskeard-Motherwell, giving a much higher cost per mile on the shorter route.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Heathrow Express knock all of them into a cocked hat.

 

[trainmania100]

Southeaster are quite expensive in my opinion. £4 from Tunbridge wells to Tonbridge was quite a lot...

 

[Merseysider]

Merseyrail.

£3.60 per mile to travel Lime Street to Central.

 

[najaB]

Merseyrail.

£3.60 per mile to travel Lime Street to Central.

Narrowly beating Scotrail at £3.52/mile for Invershin to Culrain.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Merseyrail.
£3.60 per mile to travel Lime Street to Central.

Now you come to mention it, it's £3.71 per mile Huyton to Roby (£1.90 AR for 41 chains).
Must be one of those "cheap" PTE fares...

Actually the £1.90 applies to Lime St to Central (42 chains) and James St to Moorfields (29 chains), so the latter wins at £5.24 a mile!

There must be some horrific rates on LU with the high cash fares and short distances, eg Leicester Square to Covent Garden.

 

[maniacmartin]

Pity those non-existent commuters who make the 21 chain journey into Canada Water on the Overground, where the fare is £8.76 per mile with a £2.30 paper ticket
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There must be some horrific rates on LU with the high cash fares and short distances, eg Leicester Square to Covent Garden.

But LU is not a TOC

 

[bb21]

Comparing short-distance Anytime Day fares and long-distance intercity Anytime fares is completely meaningless.

These threads pop up every now and then. Very rarely can a conclusion be drawn due to the huge number of possible measurement criteria.

 

[najaB]

These threads pop up every now and then. Very rarely can a conclusion be drawn due to the huge number of possible measurement criteria.

I rather think that was the point - cost per mile based on individual fares is a terrible way to try and compare TOCs as you can always find a fare that proves your point (whatever point it is you're trying to make). For example, you could also say that Scotrail is cheap at 18p a mile for Glasgow to Dumfries (and I'm pretty sure I could find a cheaper rate).

 

[Haywain]

I rather think that was the point - cost per mile based on individual fares is a terrible way to try and compare TOCs as you can always find a fare that proves your point (whatever point it is you're trying to make). For example, you could also say that Scotrail is cheap at 18p a mile for Glasgow to Dumfries (and I'm pretty sure I could find a cheaper rate).

How about Tweedbank to Kyle for £1?!

 

[Kentish Paul]

Pity those non-existent commuters who make the 21 chain journey into Canada Water on the Overground, where the fare is £8.76 per mile with a £2.30 paper ticket
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


But LU is not a TOC

Into Canada Water from where?

 

[30907]

Comparing short-distance Anytime Day fares and long-distance intercity Anytime fares is completely meaningless.

These threads pop up every now and then. Very rarely can a conclusion be drawn due to the huge number of possible measurement criteria.

To be fair, the OP did say "on average" AND referenced Leicester-London which IIRC is 99 miles - most replies have ignored both.

 

[maniacmartin]

Into Canada Water from where?

Rotherhithe

 

[najaB]

To be fair, the OP did say "on average" AND referenced Leicester-London which IIRC is 99 miles - most replies have ignored both.

The only way to make a meaningful comparison would be to know the passenger miles and gross revenue per period - and I doubt any TOC will provide either figure (or certainly not the latter).

 

[LexyBoy]

I agree that the most accurate representation would be an averaged £/mile weighted by number of journeys actually made.

Second best would be to average every single fare set by that TOC, but that would mean including a lot of unrepresentative low-volume flows.

Unable to do either, I picked fares (SOS or SDS) to London for four or five mid-distance stations (like Leicester) and calculated the average costs per mile:
EMT: 67p
GWR: 72p
VTWC: 83p
VTEC: 58p

Obviously that's fairly arbitrary: taking GWR as an example the fares within the NSE region are significantly lower, so if I just used stations west of Didcot I get a figure of 80p. Then there are particular "gaps" where a high fare comes into play - Swindon-Didcot is nearly £1/mile, and there's similar on VTWC.

Must say I wasn't surprised to see VTWC come out as most expensive - and tellingly their fares don't follow the usual trend of becoming cheaper per mile on longer distances - MAN-EUS is the highest of those I tabulated (92p, compared to 57p for York which was the second lowest of the VTEC fares).

 

[pne]

Funny, I had expected that post number two would have been "CrossCountry", yet I haven't seen that name mentioned at all in the thread.

Aren't they the go-to TOC when complaining about high fares that can only be tamed somewhat by splitting?

 

[bb21]

To be fair, the OP did say "on average" AND referenced Leicester-London which IIRC is 99 miles - most replies have ignored both.

You then have a second problem. Define "average".

 

[maniacmartin]

MAN-EUS is the highest of those I tabulated (92p, compared to 57p for York which was the second lowest of the VTEC fares).

Perhaps its no coincidence that York - London has competition from TOC-only fares set by Open Access Operators, whereas for Manchester - London there is no meaningful competition that offers itineraries of similar journey time

 

[Wolfie]

You then have a second problem. Define "average".

Yup... mean, mode or median?

Now you come to mention it, it's £3.71 per mile Huyton to Roby (£1.90 AR for 41 chains).
Must be one of those "cheap" PTE fares...

Actually the £1.90 applies to Lime St to Central (42 chains) and James St to Moorfields (29 chains), so the latter wins at £5.24 a mile!

There must be some horrific rates on LU with the high cash fares and short distances, eg Leicester Square to Covent Garden.

Charing Cross to Embankment...

But LU is not a TOC

Spoilsport...

Pity those non-existent commuters who make the 21 chain journey into Canada Water on the Overground, where the fare is £8.76 per mile with a £2.30 paper ticket

Two questions: Is London Overground a TOC and from where to Canada Water?

 

[wellwhatitis]

Funny, I had expected that post number two would have been "CrossCountry", yet I haven't seen that name mentioned at all in the thread.

Aren't they the go-to TOC when complaining about high fares that can only be tamed somewhat by splitting?

They would definitely get my vote. Anywhere there are no alternatives, it's a top whack SDS point to point with no off peak.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

For example, you could also say that Scotrail is cheap at 18p a mile for Glasgow to Dumfries (and I'm pretty sure I could find a cheaper rate).

An Anytime Day Return from Inverness to Wick is £26.60 for a total of 335m 42c out and back. If my maths is correct that's 8p a mile.

 

[deltic]

If you look at passenger income per passenger km you get the following ranking


Merseyrail Electrics 0.07
Wales & Borders 0.10
Northern 0.11
ScotRail 0.11
Trans Pennine Express 0.11
West Midlands 0.12
East Coast 0.13
Cross Country 0.14
Chiltern 0.14
Essex Thameside 0.14
GB total 0.14
West Coast 0.14
East Midlands 0.15
Greater Anglia 0.15
Greater Western 0.15
Thameslink Great Northern 0.15
Southern 0.15
South Western 0.16
South Eastern 0.16
London Overground 0.18

 

[ashworth]

Funny, I had expected that post number two would have been "CrossCountry", yet I haven't seen that name mentioned at all in the thread.

Aren't they the go-to TOC when complaining about high fares that can only be tamed somewhat by splitting?

It's probably because the original poster was referring to the 'most expensive standard (not off peak) fares'.
I'm not saying that Cross Country are not expensive for these fares it's just that many of the complaints about Cross Country are about the high prices of their Off Peak and indeed Advance fares in comparison to fares set by other TOC's on journeys not to/from London.

I recently did a journey from Nottingham to Exeter and if I hadn't used Advance tickets with a split at Cheltenham, even the Advance fares were unbelievably high compared to recent similar length journeys I have done by other TOC's recently.

 

[Jona26]

Yup... mean, mode or median?

Or in the case of EMT should it be 'mean, moan and Meridian'?

 

[Deerfold]

Two questions: Is London Overground a TOC and from where to Canada Water?

1

Yes

2

Rotherhithe

 

[Wolfie]

Or in the case of EMT should it be 'mean, moan and Meridian'?

 

[bicbasher]

So close that you can see Rotherhithe from the end of the Canada Water platforms.

 

[Panda]

If the purpose is to calculate passenger value for money rather than most revenue per track mile, then you need to consider time taken to travel between two points taking into account geodesic distance, rather than track miles.

For example, if a London Midland train takes 54 minutes from Euston to Milton Keynes and it costs the same as a Virgin Train that does the same journey in 30 minutes, rail distance calculations will deem both to be equally expensive - but in terms of what you get, the Virgin Train would really be cheaper (or better value for the same money).

Similarly, track miles might deflate the price for journeys where trains go on a roundabout route. (As an example, thinking about Clapham Junction to Leatherhead, either via SWT or Southern - it's the same origin and same destination, but the one will come out cheaper simply because it takes a much longer route to get the to the same place).