More Delay for HS2, and how should we proceed?

[zwk500]

With in cab signalling, could the line speed increase on WCML north of Handsacre be increased?

Not without a lot of other work doing. See the 140mph ECML thread.

 

[slowroad]

Not without a lot of other work doing. See the 140mph ECML thread.

But still a lot cheaper than 2A?

 

[MTR380A]

Assuming there is no future cost escalation, and even then a billion a minute is a lot.

But comparatively less expensive than the time saving achieved from Phase 1. Also the capacity released north of Handsacre.

 

[The Planner]

With in cab signalling, could the line speed increase on WCML north of Handsacre be increased?

Not unless you resignal it with ETCS, which as it stands wouldnt be due for another 20 years.

 

[Dan G]

So it's looking like Handsacre will survive and trains will run on current tracks from there to Manchester. Hopefully Delta is built in full and the split at Handsacre so that 2A can be added later.

Is there even any capacity at Piccadilly for these services? Or will this just simply be a Pendolino replacement?

At least Euston seems to be getting a stay of execution (for now).

Delta Junction to Handsacre has been "paused", like Euston, with work ending apart from the M42 box which is underway.

Whether the Handsacre link will be unpaused, like Euston is rumoured to be, waits to be seen.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Delta Junction to Handsacre has been "paused", like Euston, with work ending apart from the M42 box which is underway.

Whether the Handsacre link will be unpaused, like Euston is rumoured to be, waits to be seen.

It really will be a white elephant if Handsacre isn't constructed.

 

[Midnight13]

reports from sky and the daily mail seem to suggest HS2 trains will reach Manchester via the current network, so Handsacre seems the likely option

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

reports from sky and the daily mail seem to suggest HS2 trains will reach Manchester via the current network, so Handsacre seems the likely option

and diverting a few billion saved off 2A/B into sorting out Castleford and we will have a much better transport for millions more people

 

[JonathanH]

and diverting a few billion saved off 2A/B into sorting out Castleford and we will have a much better transport for millions more people

Castleford? Is that the trains to York that get discussed from time to time?

 

[chris2]

Here’s the link to the sky story

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/hs2-...ngham-it-will-run-on-existing-tracks-12976020

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Delta Junction to Handsacre has been "paused", like Euston, with work ending apart from the M42 box which is underway.

Whether the Handsacre link will be unpaused, like Euston is rumoured to be, waits to be seen.

Paused but not cancelled like 2a/b.

Handsacre has to be built for the service to continue on to Manchester as per the latest media stories.

A additional 2 years onto the schedule for that section is fine.

 

[HSTEd]

and diverting a few billion saved off 2A/B into sorting out Castleford and we will have a much better transport for millions more people

You are going to need more than a few billion to fix Castlefield.

You would need a Crossrail scale budget for that, and with construction inflation you won't get much change out of £25bn.

 

[Dan G]

Shapps on Today programme seems to be confirming that Handsacre will be built, but is also talking about in-cab moving block signalling for the WCML.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Oct 2023 ==

Given that phase 2 is about £35bn in 2019 money after £45-50bn for phase 1, but the BCR is much higher for phase 2, it does all seem extremely short-sighted.

If Starmer has an iota of political sense he'll kick the ball into this open goal.

 

[The Planner]

Shapps on Today programme seems to be confirming that Handsacre will be built, but is also talking about in-cab moving block signalling for the WCML.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Oct 2023 ==

Given that phase 2 is about £35bn in 2019 money after £45-50bn for phase 1, but the BCR is much higher for phase 2, it does all seem extremely short-sighted.

If Starmer has an iota of political sense he'll kick the ball into this open goal.

Moving block signalling . Bloke hasn't a clue. Colwich Rugeley re-signaling gets commissioned in January, and that only replaces the knackered stuff that is already there.

 

[Mordac]

Shapps on Today programme seems to be confirming that Handsacre will be built, but is also talking about in-cab moving block signalling for the WCML.

Now where have I heard this before??

 

[Dan G]

Announcement now made

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-67001483

Rishi Sunak has just said he's cancelling "the rest of the HS2 project" - meaning everything outside the London to Birmingham leg, which is already under construction.

Sunak now says "we will reinvest every single penny" saved from HS2, which he says is £36 billion pounds, in hundreds of new transport projects in the North and the Midlands, and across the country.

"With our new Network North, you will be able to get from Manchester to the new station in Bradford in 30 minutes, Sheffield in 42 minutes, and to Hull in 84 minutes on a fully, electrified line."

Sunak says HS2 will travel all the way to Euston station in London - in line with the initial plan.

As we just reported, HS2 will run to Euston, as planned. But Sunak says the HS2 management will no longer run the project there.

"There must be some accountability for the mistakes made, for the mismanagement of this project," he says.

"We will instead create a new Euston development zone."

• Protect the £12bn to link up Manchester and Liverpool as planned - this won't be with high-speed rail
• Build the Midlands Rail Hub, connecting 50 stations
• Help Andy Street extend the West Midlands Metro
• Build the Leeds tram, electrify the North Wales main line
• Bring back the Don Valley line
• Upgrade the energy coast line between Carlisle, Workington and Barrow

 

[Jammy Dodger]

Sunak mentioned ~£6bn being saved from Euston alone - where's the money coming from, a reduction to 2 platforms!?

 

[Arkeeos]

Sunak mentioned ~£6bn being saved from Euston alone - where's the money coming from, a reduction to 2 platforms!?

Selling off some land to redevelopment, likely descoping to 6 or so platforms.

 

[BRX]

Rail, motorways, trams: Sunak's list of transport promises​

There was a flurry of promises from the prime minister there. We'll be analysing all of them in the newsroom, but in the meantime, he said the government will:

• Protect the £12bn to link up Manchester and Liverpool as planned - this won't be with high-speed rail
• Build the Midlands Rail Hub, connecting 50 stations
• Help Andy Street extend the West Midlands Metro
• Build the Leeds tram, electrify the North Wales main line
• Upgrade the A1, the A2, the A5, the M6…
• Connect our Union with the A75 boosting links between Scotland and Northern Ireland
• Fund the Shipley bypass, the Blyth relief road and deliver 70 other road schemes
• Resurface roads across the country
• Bring back the Don Valley line
• Upgrade the energy coast line between Carlisle, Workington and Barrow

Basically some rail funding diverted to road infrastructure, then.

 

[Harvey B]

If we're not buidling HS2 up to manchester anymore then it's time to just cancel the whole project altogether now.

HS2 would have only worked if it was built in full

 

[Arkeeos]

What's going to be the **new** rail link between Liverpool Manchester and Leeds, obviously it doesn't involve a new tunnel through the peak district, otherwise he would have bragged about it. Is it just electrification? If it is I dont see how those journey times could be possible, although it wouldnt be the first time the government has lied about journey times.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Selling off some land to redevelopment, likely descoping to 6 or so platforms.

Or shortened? Not much case for 400m now - demand to Birmingham is low enough that 2tph fast is handling it just fine at the moment, the third hasn't even come back yet.

A sensible choice now would be 275 or 300m single units (based on 25m vehicles) with no portion working.

Shorter units could mean taking the buffer stops back a bit and allowing development in front of the HS2 part of the station.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Oct 2023 ==

What's going to be the **new** rail link between Liverpool Manchester and Leeds, obviously it doesn't involve a new tunnel through the peak district, otherwise he would have bragged about it. Is it just electrification? If it is I dont see how those journey times could be possible, although it wouldnt be the first time the government has lied about journey times.

I think the Fiddlers Ferry line was at one point slated for an upgrade for that leg of NPR. It already exists, and would just need an East West Rail to Oxford style upgrade job on it, with one intermediate station at Warrington Bank Quay Low Level. So I expect that.

 

[HSTEd]

Or shortened? Not much case for 400m now - demand to Birmingham is low enough that 2tph fast is handling it just fine at the moment, the third hasn't even come back yet.

A sensible choice now would be 275 or 300m single units (based on 25m vehicles) with no portion working.

Shorter units could mean taking the buffer stops back a bit and allowing development in front of the HS2 part of the station

Not really any call for a ten or twelve platform station at any length.
Seven 400m platforms will save far more room than a pile of 300m ones. And has far greater capability for future needs. Could also always run the Caledonian Sleeper out of the HS2 side, increasing length would simplify it's shunting requirements.

 

[Arkeeos]

I think the Fiddlers Ferry line was at one point slated for an upgrade for that leg of NPR. It already exists, and would just need an East West Rail to Oxford style upgrade job on it, with one intermediate station at Warrington Bank Quay Low Level. So I expect that.

What line would it even connect to? it also wouldn't be high speed so the journey times would be awful.

I think its going to be a route upgrade of the existing railway, the faster speed will have come from some highly optimistic line speed increases.

 

[Trainbike46]

Or shortened? Not much case for 400m now - demand to Birmingham is low enough that 2tph fast is handling it just fine at the moment, the third hasn't even come back yet.

A sensible choice now would be 275 or 300m single units (based on 25m vehicles) with no portion working.

Shorter units could mean taking the buffer stops back a bit and allowing development in front of the HS2 part of the station.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Oct 2023 ==

Doing that would ensure the next government can't undo this foolishness though. 400m platforms allow 2x200m trains that split, allowing for a more efficient use of paths

Not really any call for a ten or twelve platform station at any length.
Seven 400m platforms will save far more room than a pile of 300m ones. And has far greater capability for future needs. Could also always run the Caledonian Sleeper out of the HS2 side, increasing length would simplify it's shunting requirements.

I like this idea - a 400m sleeper train would be good. How would it get onto the WCML though - unless you run it over HS2 until handsacre?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What line would it even connect to? it also wouldn't be high speed so the journey times would be awful.

Other than where it used HS2 2B NPR was never going to be a high speed line. I believe the prevailing linespeed was to be around 125-140mph. Calling it HS3 was always a bit of a misnomer, it's more about capacity and connectivity than raw speed because of the relatively short distances involved.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Oct 2023 ==

I like this idea - a 400m sleeper train would be good. How would it get onto the WCML though - unless you run it over HS2 until handsacre?

It's already 400m near enough. 16 x 22m coaches comes to 352m, then you've got the loco at the front and the one that brought it in. Euston does actually have two platforms of that sort of length already - 1 and 15 - which are the only two it can use.

 

[Arkeeos]

Other than where it used HS2 2B NPR was never going to be a high speed line. I believe the prevailing linespeed was to be around 125-140mph. Calling it HS3 was always a bit of a misnomer, it's more about capacity and connectivity than raw speed because of the relatively short distances involved.

Right but it has to be faster than the original route to be competitive. the original proposals had them go through the Manchester tunnel which was 160mph I think,

Doing that would ensure the next government can't undo this foolishness though. 400m platforms allow 2x200m trains that split, allowing for a more efficient use of paths

That's intentional, salt the earth.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Right but it has to be faster than the original route to be competitive.

No, it doesn't really. It needs to do what HS2 is for - to remove fast services from congested regional lines in order to allow more frequent and longer fast services, to make them more reliable and to allow enhancement of local services.

125-140mph is a considerable speed gain anyway, no regional line in the North has a linespeed above 100mph and plenty are slower.

 

[350401]

What line would it even connect to? it also wouldn't be high speed so the journey times would be awful.

I think its going to be a route upgrade of the existing railway, the faster speed will have come from some highly optimistic line speed increases.

The original plan was to upgrade the Fiddler's Ferry freight line from Liverpool to Warrington low level, then build a new line from Warrington to High Legh, where it joined HS2 for the run into the Airport and Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[PG]

Don't suppose he's put any time frame on Euston being completed? Or who he thinks will step forward to manage the construction now that HS2 Ltd are out of the frame.