More Class 60s for sale

[theblackwatch]

For anyone thinking of buying an early Xmas gift.

The locos have to be collected from Toton - no small expense itself.

But a tiny figure in comparison to what would need to be spent over the following few years.

 

[whhistle]

No I don’t need it clarifying and the answer is the same.

Seriously?
Are you seriously thinking the person who asked didn't want some sort of value in pounds?
Or that your answer was constructive/helpful? I pity you. I really do.

It might be different for each loco, or who wants to buy them but that information is of no real value as an answer when the original question was clearly after a monetary value.

No wonder people hate asking simple questions here...

 

[43096]

Seriously?
Are you seriously thinking the person who asked didn't want some sort of value in pounds?
Or that your answer was constructive/helpful? I pity you. I really do.

It might be different for each loco, or who wants to buy them but that information is of no real value as an answer when the original question was clearly after a monetary value.

No wonder people hate asking simple questions here...

Yes, seriously. It is the reality. There’s so many factors depending on who is bidding, if there is a deal already done etc etc to make coming up with a value a pointless exercise, as we will likely not know the price paid.

Not quite sure why you feel the need to get all offended on behalf of someone else, but there you go. Maybe best to let them speak for themselves...

 

[richieb1971]

Preserved doesn't mean it needs to be operational - take the APT at Crewe Heritage Centre as a good example (and a good proportion of the NRM collection!)

Static displays don't really pull the revenue in. DB won't sell a 60 cheaper on the basis its a static display either. Well they might, but there is no history of a 60 going anywhere but back to work. Which is a good thing in a way if you take away the % that didn't get that opportunity.

 

[robreed90001]

Those listed above are for sale, not recently purchased. Some of them are in dire condition, having been standing on a siding at Toton for years doing nothing.

There is no guarantee they’ll be sold - the only realistic buyer at the moment is GBRf but I don’t know if they need any more, and DBC are forever putting 60s up for sale before withdrawing them again.

aren’t some of the locos at Toton rusted to the rails?

 

[richieb1971]

45149 was in dire state and that is in perfect condition now.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Preserved doesn't mean it needs to be operational - take the APT at Crewe Heritage Centre as a good example (and a good proportion of the NRM collection!)

True, but the 60s probably are not significant enough to warrant museum status and static locos don't generate any revenue for preservation groups.

Plus most volunteers and contributors for heritage groups do so with the aim of seeing a loco back in action.

Unfortunately modern loco or unit preservation is going to be far more complex - you'll need specialist computer engineers,not just mechanics to keep them moving.

 

[433N]

I've been fiddling with code longer than I care to remember (and longer than the 60s have been around) ... Is there any reason why someone like me shouldn't volunteer to do it in the same way that a mechanic might volunteer to do the mechanics ?*

I'm not saying it won't be challenging but what restoration project isn't ?


*I'd volunteer myself but I would need to clarify that the code isn't anything to do with Microsoft. The fact that I've seen a 60 pull away from a signal in a timely manner rather than having to spend 10 minutes doing a system update and then reboot before moving suggests that it isn't.

 

[krus_aragon]

I've been fiddling with code longer than I care to remember (and longer than the 60s have been around) ... Is there any reason why someone like me shouldn't volunteer to do it in the same way that a mechanic might volunteer to do the mechanics ?*

I'm not saying it won't be challenging but what restoration project isn't ?

If you've got knowledge, interest or expertise in the relevant areas, then I'd say go ahead. (If I had the time and was close enough to such a project, I know that I'd love to.)

For the Class 60, given it's age, I'd expect less reliance on high-level coding, and more on machine code and control systems / embedded systems design. If you spent your time on 1980s micros writing in BASIC, then you might be out of your depth. If, on the other hand, you'd outgrown BASIC and had started writing your own assembly code, know what's going on inside a NAND gate or a flip-flop, and maybe got in some practice with a soldering iron or an EPROM programmer, then a Class 60 might be up your street.

Newer machines, such as post-privitisation ones, will have more opportunity for the high-level programmer to show their skills. (e.g. the Class 175 run their Train Management System on Windows 2000 Embedded, and I'm sure other contemporary units are similar.)

 

[433N]

For the Class 60, given it's age, I'd expect less reliance on high-level coding, and more on machine code and control systems / embedded systems design. If you spent your time on 1980s micros writing in BASIC, then you might be out of your depth. If, on the other hand, you'd outgrown BASIC and had started writing your own assembly code, know what's going on inside a NAND gate or a flip-flop, and maybe got in some practice with a soldering iron or an EPROM programmer, then a Class 60 might be up your street.

All the memories of 1980s BASIC programming just came a-swirling over me again.

The thing about 1980s micros were that they were so difficult to interface. So if you were using them in a work or research environment then you were almost forced into getting into Assembler. I'm just saying that I'm not sure that it would be such a big obstacle to preservation. There are probably plenty of C programmers nearing retirement who might fancy the challenge.

 

[krus_aragon]

The thing about 1980s micros were that they were so difficult to interface. So if you were using them in a work or research environment then you were almost forced into getting into Assembler. I'm just saying that I'm not sure that it would be such a big obstacle to preservation. There are probably plenty of C programmers nearing retirement who might fancy the challenge.

That point you make about being "forced" into using assembly rather than a high-level language on micros: that remained the case for a long time if you were working on embedded systems. If you wanted low-latency responses to external triggers, and real-time processing, you generally had to go "down to the bare metal" in order to do so. Until recently, 8-bit processors were still a key part of the landscape for embedded designers. Only in the past few years have the likes of 32- and 64-bit ARM processors started to make significant inroads to that market.

There's a lot of hobbyists that still enjoy keeping old computers running, see for the example the huge number of people that responded to the NMoC's plea for people to help repair their classroom of BBC micros they use for teaching. (There's an article online somewhere about the huge success they had in repairing them, but I can't find it atm.)

 

[433N]

That point you make about being "forced" into using assembly rather than a high-level language on micros: that remained the case for a long time if you were working on embedded systems. If you wanted low-latency responses to external triggers, and real-time processing, you generally had to go "down to the bare metal" in order to do so. Until recently, 8-bit processors were still a key part of the landscape for embedded designers. Only in the past few years have the likes of 32- and 64-bit ARM processors started to make significant inroads to that market.

There's a lot of hobbyists that still enjoy keeping old computers running, see for the example the huge number of people that responded to the NMoC's plea for people to help repair their classroom of BBC micros they use for teaching. (There's an article online somewhere about the huge success they had in repairing them, but I can't find it atm.)

49 20 6b 6e 6f 77 20 77 68 61 74 20 79 6f 75 20 6d 65 61 6e 20 61 62 6f 75 74 20 68 65 72 69 74 61 67 65 20 63 6f 6d 70 75 74 69 6e 67 2c 20 49 20 6a 75 73 74 20 6c 6f 6f 6b 65 64 20 6f 75 74 20 73 6f 66 74 77 61 72 65 20 66 6f 72 20 74 68 65 20 52 4d 33 38 30 5a 20 77 68 69 63 68 20 49 20 63 75 74 20 6d 79 20 74 65 65 74 68 20 6f 6e 2e 0a 0a 50 61 68 2e 20 20 48 6f 77 20 64 69 66 66 69 63 75 6c 74 20 69 73 20 61 73 73 65 6d 62 6c 65 72 20 61 6e 79 77 61 79 3f

 

[krus_aragon]

49 20 6b 6e 6f 77 20 77 68 61 74 20 79 6f 75 20 6d 65 61 6e 20 61 62 6f 75 74 20 68 65 72 69 74 61 67 65 20 63 6f 6d 70 75 74 69 6e 67 2c 20 49 20 6a 75 73 74 20 6c 6f 6f 6b 65 64 20 6f 75 74 20 73 6f 66 74 77 61 72 65 20 66 6f 72 20 74 68 65 20 52 4d 33 38 30 5a 20 77 68 69 63 68 20 49 20 63 75 74 20 6d 79 20 74 65 65 74 68 20 6f 6e 2e 0a 0a 50 61 68 2e 20 20 48 6f 77 20 64 69 66 66 69 63 75 6c 74 20 69 73 20 61 73 73 65 6d 62 6c 65 72 20 61 6e 79 77 61 79 3f

I see your ASCII-fu remains strong. There are of course varying degrees of assembly coding: most will type it up on a computer and use a compiler, the more hardcore or masochist will compile it to opcodes themselves and key it in on a hex keypad, as on a KIM-1 or MK14

(You may wonder which category I'm in. Naturally, I couldn't possibly comment.)

 

[krus_aragon]

Dragging things vaguely back on topic, what is the "newest" locomotive or unit to have ended up in preservation? Most of the examples that float to mind would have been built in the 60s.

 

[Far north 37]

Dragging things vaguely back on topic, what is the "newest" locomotive or unit to have ended up in preservation? Most of the examples that float to mind would have been built in the 60s.

89001 seems a good shout built 1986.

 

[Cowley]

Dragging things vaguely back on topic, what is the "newest" locomotive or unit to have ended up in preservation? Most of the examples that float to mind would have been built in the 60s.

There’s the prototype HST power car 41001 too, and the Class 58 Locomotive Group’s 58016.
Also a few class 56s which were built in the 1970s, as well as at least 1 class 37/9 with a Mirrlees engine and electronics from a similar era to the class 60.

 

[captainbigun]

All the memories of 1980s BASIC programming just came a-swirling over me again.

The thing about 1980s micros were that they were so difficult to interface. So if you were using them in a work or research environment then you were almost forced into getting into Assembler. I'm just saying that I'm not sure that it would be such a big obstacle to preservation. There are probably plenty of C programmers nearing retirement who might fancy the challenge.

In a 60 you have a pair of 68000 micros with compiled code on ROM. You don’t have the source. That Brush’s IP.

And that’s assuming the micro and associated IO is complete which at this stage I’d say are almost certainly going to be missing.

Micro aside 60 is complex, beyond most current preservation groups. Even if you have bodies they must be competent in railway terms.

The only comparable loco in preservation is 89001 which happens to share the same basic micro and interfaces. 37/9 is not comparable.

 

[TimboM]

There’s so many factors depending on who is bidding, if there is a deal already done etc etc to make coming up with a value a pointless exercise, as we will likely not know the price paid.

It's also pretty likely the deal - like the last three 60s sold - will be done as a "bundle" of eight locos and involve commitments for the buyer to overhaul and/or maintain the locos with DB and possibly other related clauses - so pinpointing the value of a specific loco is nigh on impossible anyway.

Also, if anyone does have a reasonable idea of what locos have changed hands for in recent times it's commercially sensitive and not going to be posted on a public forum anyway.

aren’t some of the locos at Toton rusted to the rails?

The "worst" line of them over the other side of the main line from the depot was recently shunted and split up to dig 004, 014 and 018 out, so safe to say they're not rusted to the rails!

 

[xotGD]

Dragging things vaguely back on topic, what is the "newest" locomotive or unit to have ended up in preservation? Most of the examples that float to mind would have been built in the 60s.

Evening Star?

 

[TimboM]

Evening Star?

Think 89001 is still the clear "winner".

 

[rebmcr]

the more hardcore or masochist will compile it to opcodes themselves and key it in on a hex keypad

Or just have the astronauts aboard Apollo 14 do it for you.

 

[hooverboy]

If you've got knowledge, interest or expertise in the relevant areas, then I'd say go ahead. (If I had the time and was close enough to such a project, I know that I'd love to.)

For the Class 60, given it's age, I'd expect less reliance on high-level coding, and more on machine code and control systems / embedded systems design. If you spent your time on 1980s micros writing in BASIC, then you might be out of your depth. If, on the other hand, you'd outgrown BASIC and had started writing your own assembly code, know what's going on inside a NAND gate or a flip-flop, and maybe got in some practice with a soldering iron or an EPROM programmer, then a Class 60 might be up your street.

Newer machines, such as post-privitisation ones, will have more opportunity for the high-level programmer to show their skills. (e.g. the Class 175 run their Train Management System on Windows 2000 Embedded, and I'm sure other contemporary units are similar.)

I would say at that sort of age control systems are likely to be C++,twas what most industrial machinery was operating back in the day.

back in 89-90 we are still talking windows 3.0 territory,with most stuff programmed in DOS on PC's

 

[pdeaves]

Think 89001 is still the clear "winner".

I think that might depend on whether one means 'newest on entering preservation' or 'newest as at 2018'

 

[43096]

Think 89001 is still the clear "winner".

I think you could make a case for Tornado.

 

[captainbigun]

Tornado isn't preserved though is it?!

Aside from broken, I'm not sure what it is. ('orrible kettle).

 

[43096]

Tornado isn't preserved though is it?!

Aside from broken, I'm not sure what it is. ('orrible kettle).

Which was why I said you could make a case for it. It’s not really a commercial hire operation, either, really.

Agree with your last sentence. Kettles are for making cups of tea. They’re not for hauling trains.

 

[BRX]

That said, there seems to be quite a lot happening behind the scenes with the 60s currently, with the extra 8 for sale and possible increased use for DB on Mendip stone work.

It's reported elsewhere that DB have lost the Mendip contract; is this true? If so, not such good news for the 60s.