Modern Railways: LNER and compulsory reservations

[Bletchleyite]

Erm, yes it does - please don't presume to tell me how airlines operated as I've worked in the industry for more than 30 years. In most cases the process happens behind the scenes without the customer having to take the initiative - as far as the customer with a flexible ticket is concerned, its akin to a walk-on service if there are seats available.

Well, it's not, because you have to present yourself at the desk before boarding closes to do it. This is essentially equivalent to presenting yourself at some sort of express exchange machine before boarding the train. Or perhaps it could be said to be equivalent to the gateline staff doing it at a gated station.

Everyone understands that they may not be able to travel if the flight is already full (because standing isn't allowed on aircraft) but that isn't the case with railways.

Not legally, but the railway is clearly considering that policy for reasons of improved comfort.

A mandatory-reservations railway puts significant constraints on business and commuter travel and reduces its appeal to those groups.

LNER is not primarily a commuter operation.

Most business travellers have to use the cheapest available ticket these days. Even First Class is rapidly becoming a self-upgrade and leisure product.

And at the same time it panders to the whims of the Clampetts who have no long-term commitment to the railway and ultimately will give it far less revenue. Lets look at it another way - quite a few "proper" airlines will guarantee their most loyal and highest-revenue passengers a seat on a specific flight, even if it is full - they will do this even if it means off-loading a low-revenue customer. Maybe the railway should kick off advance ticket holders who have paid a low fare if there is short-notice demand from full open ticket holders?

It can't quite do that, but what it certainly could do is hold some seats back for holders of highest-priced tickets and members of a loyalty scheme, and upgrade them to 1st free if Standard was full. That's very close to being the same. And I'm sure they'd prefer it as they'd get a seat, not a place in the vestibule under someone's armpit.

The railway should not be about attracting the most customers - it should be about attracting the most revenue.

I couldn't disagree more.

 

[Skymonster]

what it certainly could do is hold some seats back for holders of highest-priced tickets and members of a loyalty scheme, and upgrade them to 1st free if Standard was full.

That would be rather self-defeating of a mandatory reservations policy as its pretty much the equivalent of a walk-on service, at least for those who hold the more expensive open tickets

 

[Bletchleyite]

That would be rather self-defeating of a mandatory reservations policy as its pretty much the equivalent of a walk-on service, at least for those who hold the more expensive open tickets

Not really, because holders of Anytime Single and Return tickets are in a tiny minority due to the very high cost of these fares.

 

[LittleAH]

Annual season tickets are not even close to LNER's main business.

Whether it is or not, season tickets are still part of their business model. Before I joined the railway, I had a season ticket and travelled on Virgin Trains. If I had to book a seat every day, I'd not use the train as the equivalent journey on another operator was significantly longer.

Compulsory reservations completely shaft other (more regular) travellers for a type of leisure traveller that makes a couple of journeys a year max.

 

[Roast Veg]

The ultimate goal is that you're rebooked automatically as soon as they know the connection will miss, so you're automatically sent your new itinerary. Or if you're connecting onto the S&C, say, and your wait is 3 hours, a taxi is already arranged before you even get there.

Knowing everyone's itinerary is incredibly powerful in what can be achieved.

Getting this right is near-impossible, and I think it's far too optimistic to think that CR will ever make disruption easier.

 

[route101]

Just booked a trip on LNER. Edinburgh to Newcastle advance for Saturday. Seats couldn't be amended due to they were the last seats on the train. Both services, really busy this Saturday with bank holiday I guess.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just booked a trip on LNER. Edinburgh to Newcastle advance for Saturday. Seats couldn't be amended due to they were the last seats on the train. Both services, really busy this Saturday with bank holiday I guess.

The reason that happens isn't because you've got the last seats on the train, it's because you've got the last seats in that Advance quota level.

 

[Bikeman78]

Travelling on an overcrowded train is unpleasant. Only a railway enthusiast would even suggest otherwise.

To be fair, a traffic jam on the M5 is unpleasant, but tens of thousands of people sign up for it every bank holiday and every summer. It doesn't seem to put people off. I'm still not clear as to what problem LNER is trying to solve. If their trains are/were routinely overcrowded, then clearly people aren't being put off by the overcrowding.

 

[kez19]

The reason that happens isn't because you've got the last seats on the train, it's because you've got the last seats in that Advance quota level.

When I booked mine for June on the app it did indicate the seat capacity available for the coach it gave me (in all times I have booked with LNER pre-Covid that’s one thing that never appeared)

Edit: Advance ticket(s)

Edit again: looked at tickets Saturday from Dundee-Newcastle app says 4 tickets available in standard (include return) nothing highlighted in terms of first class though

 

[Grumbler]

An Anytime Return from York to London is £273. How much more expensive would you like that to be? Bearing in mind that the only complaint bigger than overcrowding is the fact that fares are too expensive.

I didn't say Anytime Return (which presumably includes the peaks) but Off-peak Return which excludes the busiest times.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I didn't say Anytime Return (which presumably includes the peaks) but Off-peak Return which excludes the busiest times.

OK, so how much would you like that to be increased by?

 

[Kite159]

Erm, yes it does - please don't presume to tell me how airlines operated as I've worked in the industry for more than 30 years. In most cases the process happens behind the scenes without the customer having to take the initiative - as far as the customer with a flexible ticket is concerned, its akin to a walk-on service if there are seats available. Everyone understands that they may not be able to travel if the flight is already full (because standing isn't allowed on aircraft) but that isn't the case with railways.

A mandatory-reservations railway puts significant constraints on business and commuter travel and reduces its appeal to those groups. And at the same time it panders to the whims of the Clampetts who have no long-term commitment to the railway and ultimately will give it far less revenue. Lets look at it another way - quite a few "proper" airlines will guarantee their most loyal and highest-revenue passengers a seat on a specific flight, even if it is full - they will do this even if it means off-loading a low-revenue customer. Maybe the railway should kick off advance ticket holders who have paid a low fare if there is short-notice demand from full open ticket holders? You and I know that's not going to happen, but it illustrates a point - mandatory reservations are an ill thought-out concept that reduces the attractiveness of the railway to just those customers whom it should be making every effort to attract back.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Apr 2021 ==


The railway should not be about attracting the most customers - it should be about attracting the most revenue.

An example could be a business person who lives in Doncaster and has to attend a meeting in London which could last between 3 & 6 hours depending how fast those attending agree on things etc so they buy an flexible anytime single, charged back to the business, for the reasons of the unknown finish time.

London - Doncaster normally has 3+ trains an hour so near enough a turn up at Kings Cross after the meeting and board the first available train towards Doncaster, aiming towards the unreserved coach. Even if the train is busy, the majority of services to Doncaster call at various stations along the way which empties out.

World of mandatory reservations means either than business person makes multiple reservations within a 3 hour time slot, having to buy an advance valid only on a particular train (so not much cope if the meeting finishes earlier than expected meaning a lot of wasted time sat at the station waiting for the booked train) or they will drive from Doncaster to a location closer to London and use alternative transport (i.e the Tube).

 

[Bletchleyite]

World of mandatory reservations means either than business person makes multiple reservations within a 3 hour time slot, having to buy an advance valid only on a particular train (so not much cope if the meeting finishes earlier than expected meaning a lot of wasted time sat at the station waiting for the booked train) or they will drive from Doncaster to a location closer to London and use alternative transport (i.e the Tube).

Or they'll book a ticket for the 6 hour meeting and change it earlier if they finish early. Typically mid-afternoon is a quiet time for the railway so a seat will be available.

 

[Kite159]

Or they'll book a ticket for the 6 hour meeting and change it earlier if they finish early. Typically mid-afternoon is a quiet time for the railway so a seat will be available.

Which is all fine, until any such requests get pushed back as
"Sorry sir, there are no seats available on those earlier trains, you will simply have to wait 4 hours until your booked train"

Meanwhile the car option looks very much appealing as there is no hassle with trying to change bookings, especially if the ticket was purchased via a 3rd party agent so the business person can't simply change it and pay extra as it means more work for themselves trying to claim back the extra cost.

 

[Grumbler]

OK, so how much would you like that to be increased by?

The fact that travelling in the peaks works out cheaper than travelling when trains are less crowded shows there's something seriously wrong with the way the railways are managed. Whether they charge more for peak journeys or less for off-peak must be a commercial judgment. Every other transport mode charges less when there are empty seats to fill.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The fact that travelling in the peaks works out cheaper than travelling when trains are less crowded shows there's something seriously wrong with the way the railways are managed. Whether they charge more for peak journeys or less for off-peak must be a commercial judgment. Every other transport mode charges less when there are empty seats to fill.

Because commuters on season tickets make up a very small proportion of LNER's passengers, I would suggest that this isn't really relevant to the discussion.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I think this compulsory reservation thing is a fast from start to finish. And on certain parts of the route, north of Edinburgh for example is completely impractical. Their services provide part of the regular clock Face timetable in some cases and in the case of the the southbound Highland chieftain on a Sunday it is the first train from Inverness towards Edinburgh and the Central belt. Compulsory reservations cannot always be made 15 minutes beforehand if the station does not have a ticket office and the area has no mobile signal and indeed in the case of people who don't live surgically attached to their phones might not be possible at all. Such a customer unfriendly attitude is simply going to give the railway yet more bad press and force people back into their cars


There are parts of the cross-country network where they are the only operator and the thought of it happening on West coast is equally painful as there are times when you cannot physically squeeze on to the Trans Pennine services that stop through Cumbria for example despite the new trains

 

[43066]

This just sums it all up nicely, doesn't it, how the Railway Bubble just don't get it.

The railway should be bending over backwards currently to encourage as many people back as possible onto trains. Instead they come up with something the opposite.

Agreed. It’s a crazy suggestion, at a time when the railway needs to be attracting people back. It’s just adding unnecessary and pointless hassle to the process of travelling by train.

The fact that travelling in the peaks works out cheaper than travelling when trains are less crowded shows there's something seriously wrong with the way the railways are managed. Whether they charge more for peak journeys or less for off-peak must be a commercial judgment. Every other transport mode charges less when there are empty seats to fill.

Putting season tickets aside for a second, it’s just old fashioned price elasticity of demand. The peaks are traditionally more crowded (and more expensive in terms of walk ups) simply because people have needed to travel at that time. Hence peak time fares can profitably be increased because people cannot wait until later to benefit from cheaper fares.

Advances for one off journeys, offering much less flexibility, are traditionally a way to get a small amount of additional revenue by filling what would otherwise be empty seats with cost conscious passengers.

Season tickets offer maximum flexibility to passengers who can travel on or off peak, at lower per journey costs, but also bank a great deal of revenue “in advance” for the railway.

Comparing per journey prices of season tickets and off peak walk ups misses the point that they are mutually exclusive: you could never access those per journey prices in the peaks without buying a season ticket.

 

[43096]

Because commuters on season tickets make up a very small proportion of LNER's passengers, I would suggest that this isn't really relevant to the discussion.

You keep saying this. Would you care to quote something definitive with a source?

 

[Bletchleyite]

You keep saying this. Would you care to quote something definitive with a source?

I doubt that is publically available as it'd be commercial-in-confidence, but realistically it's not a commuter operation.

 

[norbitonflyer]

People keep saying you can re-book on the next available train. If everything is delayed, and the next train approaching the station was actually scheduled to have left some time ago, does the system allow you to reserve a seat on it? (E.G. the time is 1455, your booked 1500 has been cancelled and the so-called 1400 train is now expected at 1505)

 

[43096]

I doubt that is publically available as it'd be commercial-in-confidence, but realistically it's not a commuter operation.

In short, you’re guessing. Without anything to support what you’re saying it essentially renders your point worthless.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In short, you’re guessing. Without anything to support what you’re saying it essentially renders your point worthless.

So you think that season tickets provide most of LNER's custom (by both numbers and revenue), then? Would surprise me. Who has a season ticket from Edinburgh to Kings Cross?

I know GWR has Reading, but Reading is a very special case, and Peterborough/Stevenage are nothing like it.

 

[kez19]

People keep saying you can re-book on the next available train. If everything is delayed, and the next train approaching the station was actually scheduled to have left some time ago, does the system allow you to reserve a seat on it? (E.G. the time is 1455, your booked 1500 has been cancelled and the so-called 1400 train is now expected at 1505)

That’s what would confuse me!

 

[Grumbler]

So you think that season tickets provide most of LNER's custom (by both numbers and revenue), then? Would surprise me. Who has a season ticket from Edinburgh to Kings Cross?

I know GWR has Reading, but Reading is a very special case, and Peterborough/Stevenage are nothing like it.

There are many who commute between London and Yorkshire, and points between, on LNER services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are many who commute between London and Yorkshire, and points between, on LNER services.

But does the revenue, and numbers, exceed those travelling on all other ticket types?

I would be amazed if it did.

 

[Taunton]

In short, you’re guessing. Without anything to support what you’re saying it essentially renders your point worthless.

There was a notable analysis of season ticket traffic on comparable West Coast back in early Virgin days. The DfT incentive then for punctuality allowed a day when there was gross disorganisation to be set aside in the analysis, but season tickets were to be automatically extended by one day. As Virgin WC had hardly any season ticket revenue anyway (about 1%) they extensively called such days and avoided declaring unpunctuality and the other associated financial penalties. It was presumably a scheme thought up by season ticket-holding Whitehall (well, Marsham Street) DfT officials.

There may be a fair number who travel to and fro very regularly for work, but not the 5 days a week necessary to justify a season.

 

[43096]

So you think that season tickets provide most of LNER's custom (by both numbers and revenue), then? Would surprise me. Who has a season ticket from Edinburgh to Kings Cross?

I hadn't realised that LNER was solely there to cater for Edinburgh-Kings Cross. Are you on commission from LNER to support this nonsense, to go with your Grammer UK sales role?

I know GWR has Reading, but Reading is a very special case, and Peterborough/Stevenage are nothing like it.

I suspect there is rather more season ticket revenue than you think on LNER: it was after all GW and ECML that started the long distance commuting trend when IC125 cut journey times. Peterborough/Grantham/Newark are obvious examples (along with Swindon/Chippenham on GW) and that's before you get to cases where LNER provide local journeys (Durham-Newcastle, Doncaster-Wakefield-Leeds).

 

[87015]

You’ll need a lot of additional leisure traffic on cheap advances to cover the revenue loss of a single Grantham annual season holder I’d have thought?

 

[Bevan Price]

Then LNER need to place staff at each door of the train (because its pointless only at gate lines, especially for connecting passengers) with machines that can reserve a seat for a walk-up / flexible ticket in mere seconds. You know that's not going to happen though, is it. Sadly the mandatory reservations approach risks destroying one of the main USPs for railways - a true walk on service - especially for higher-revenue customers who demand flexibility and easy-of-use.

And they might find it difficult to recruit such staff. I think we all know that they will inevitably meet a (small) minority of people - especially drunks - who might react aggressively when refused access to a train... Likewise there might be revenue people willing to bully frail pensioners, but unwilling to challenge drunks without reservations.