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I don't get the concern about it being full for those journeys, because it odds-on won't be. People travelling from London will get off at intermediate stations as well as go all the way to Edinburgh, and that will free up seats for local travel.
The concern is that local travel is less likely to be planned and booked in advance the same way London to York/Newcastle/Edinburgh would be. E.g, students in Durham heading to Newcastle on a night out. Adding a layer of complexity and potentially being fined for getting things wrong is going to lead to people thinking 'sod it' and staying at home.
Some people are a bit thick, or more likely trying it on and knowing full well what the rule is, is the only answer to that. A ticket that says "only valid on these trains" and lists them is absolutely obviously only valid on those trains, it literally cannot be simpler.
Absolutely nobody rocks up at Luton Airport, goes through security and heads for the Ryanair flight to somewhere in Belgium with their easyJet booking to Amsterdam. Nobody. People understand it just fine.
I completely agree that Advances on local trains do not make sense. Northern in particular should not offer any Advances at all, other than possibly on their long runs like the Windermeres. But LNER isn't Northern. There are odd cases where they provide a local service too, but as I've explained above there are likely to be spare seats.
The concern is that local travel is less likely to be planned and booked in advance the same way London to York/Newcastle/Edinburgh would be. E.g, students in Durham heading to Newcastle on a night out. Adding a layer of complexity and potentially being fined for getting things wrong is going to lead to people thinking 'sod it' and staying at home.
I would venture that smartphone ownership among students is either going to be 100% or very near to it, and that they will be able to cope with the idea of booking their outward journey and the last train home (or first one in the morning) in that manner.
Furthermore, if they have been out all night, the 04yeurgh is not going to be full, so they are always going to be able to rock up to the station and buy a seat on it so they can vomit all over the bogs or whatever.
Travel from Euston? Via Glasgow? Via Newcastle? Via Manchester?
Silly routes, e.g. via Wick?
Other TOCs as well as LNER?
Break of journey?
And so on, and so forth. You could just say "yes" to everything, but then you create anomalies, as if you're going to Wick you would then want to purchase a London to Edinburgh ticket, not a London to Wick one.
I'm genuinely unable to fathom what relevance Wick and Manchester have to a London to Edinburgh journey, and I'm sure that pretty well anyone travelling from London to Edinburgh wouldn't leave London from any station other than King's Cross.
Regarding break of journey - absolutely. Why not? If one fancies a leg stretch in York or Newcastle on the way why shouldn't they be able to do so? They aren't illegitimately doubling back or going off-route by breaking their journey.
Other TOC's in my view is a whole other (off-topic) discussion. Specifically for London to Edinburgh in the not too distant future, in terms of passenger experience and rolling stock comfort is the likely difference in fares justified because a few of the trains will be blue instead of red and white?
It's not. The ticket says on it what it's valid on. There is no scope for argument, confusion or anything. Everyone knows how airline ticketing works, this is the same.
Some people are a bit thick, or more likely trying it on and knowing full well what the rule is, is the only answer to that. A ticket that says "only valid on these trains" and lists them is absolutely obviously only valid on those trains, it literally cannot be simpler
Until one of those trains gets cancelled and that person is left high and dry due to no available space for the remainder of the day.
Can't have Granny Smith getting upset there are people standing on her train when things go wrong, it will create the wrong sort of atmosphere.
But in a true airline style, the trains will get overbooked and you will get unlucky when it comes to checking in to get booted off due to the train being full.
"Sorry sir, you didn't check into your outward leg of your trip, the return ticket has been cancelled"
No, but we had gone on to talk about simplicity. Walk up tickets are pretty much by definition not simple, because you need to define bounds for their use which are very rarely totally simple.
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Does anyone have experience of how this works if a TGV is cancelled and the whole rest of the day's service is full? I suspect exceptions will be made in that rather extreme and rare situation.
What's better at times when things go wrong:
1 - Hanging around the station for hours before boarding a train which has a seat, getting to your destination hours later than you had planned?
2 - boarding a busy train to get you to your destination, with the hope that you will get a seat after the first couple stations?
3 - Get told to go to another station to catch another operators train to somewhere else, for another train to another place before a 3rd train to where you want to go?
LNER would rather have option 1 or 3, once the delay goes over an hour they don't care how late you get, because in the world of advance tickets over an hour delay gets all the money back
What's better at times when things go wrong:
1 - Hanging around the station for hours before boarding a train which has a seat, getting to your destination hours later than you had planned?
2 - boarding a busy train to get you to your destination, with the hope that you will get a seat after the first couple stations?
3 - Get told to go to another station to catch another operators train to somewhere else, for another train to another place before a 3rd train to where you want to go?
LNER would rather have option 1 or 3, once the delay goes over an hour they don't care how late you get, because in the world of advance tickets over an hour delay gets all the money back
What's better at times when things go wrong:
1 - Hanging around the station for hours before boarding a train which has a seat, getting to your destination hours later than you had planned?
2 - boarding a busy train to get you to your destination, with the hope that you will get a seat after the first couple stations?
3 - Get told to go to another station to catch another operators train to somewhere else, for another train to another place before a 3rd train to where you want to go?
LNER would rather have option 1 or 3, once the delay goes over an hour they don't care how late you get, because in the world of advance tickets over an hour delay gets all the money back
Or if I may would they throw on a coach to get you to your destination?
Going couple years back when snow hit York I did initially panic that trains would be pulled off and I be stuck to get to Newcastle (again I’m just throwing another scenario that happened whilst I holidayed in England), but how does one get back in this? Let’s say LNER refused to put on coaches then what? I am able to use TPE to get back if they allow (or similar route as LNER book?), but if nothing is available how does one get back, if that was their desired option?
No, but we had gone on to talk about simplicity. Walk up tickets are pretty much by definition not simple, because you need to define bounds for their use which are very rarely totally simple.
But they should be
Anytime - exactly what it says
Saver but better called Off-peak - valid except between certain times ideally standard across the whole rail network not different for each TOC
Weekend - exactly what it stays
Routing is a separate issue but the majority will simply take the quickest not be interested in if e.g. London - Leeds is valid via Manchester.
Where route specific this is on the ticket e.g. via High Wycombe
What's better at times when things go wrong:
1 - Hanging around the station for hours before boarding a train which has a seat, getting to your destination hours later than you had planned?
2 - boarding a busy train to get you to your destination, with the hope that you will get a seat after the first couple stations?
3 - Get told to go to another station to catch another operators train to somewhere else, for another train to another place before a 3rd train to where you want to go?
LNER would rather have option 1 or 3, once the delay goes over an hour they don't care how late you get, because in the world of advance tickets over an hour delay gets all the money back
Agreed but neither should trains be reservation only. Rather a mix of clearly stating trains that run at or beyond capacity and those that do not and encouraging people to use the quieter trains with incentives like train specific discounted tickets.
.. It’s really simple: to get people out of cars the railway has to make travel simple. Putting in more restrictions and hoops to jump through just makes it harder. You are advocating the latter and are seemingly incapable of grasping that it needs to be made simple.
I've not travelled with anything other than a walk on ticket i.e single, return or day rover / ranger since when a child on a BR Merrymaker. Like the current private operator excursions the Merrymakers can not be compared to normal scheduled services.
At a guess at least 95% of tickets bought from the booking office immediately before travel then 4% likewise from a TVM as just twice in advance from a website to collect at a TVM immediately before travel.
Generally if this is the way rail is heading for longer distance journeys after 21st June when all anti-social distancing restrictions should end I will be travelling less.
So instead of 'normal' people moaning about having to stand despite their last minute ticket costing £££, they'll be moaning instead about being unable to get a train booking for love nor money, and having to go by plane or coach instead.
If you invite punters to sample the alternative (like working from home), there's always the risk that they'll like it and never return.
This just sums it all up nicely, doesn't it, how the Railway Bubble just don't get it.
The railway should be bending over backwards currently to encourage as many people back as possible onto trains. Instead they come up with something the opposite.
It’s more muddled thinking from the government. On the one hand it appears they are trying to appease the “terrified” lot by suppressing rail demand in order to create space for social distancing to be viable. On the other hand there’s then consternation with trains running around half-empty (the days of ghost trains such as we saw in April 2020 are now behind us).
They can’t have it both ways. Likewise some of the measures seem to be a half-arsed attempt at trying to get “terrified” people back, look at all the measures we’ve laid on to make it safe for you. They don’t quite seem to get that a lot of these “terrified” people will only come back when their employer points a proverbial gun at their head and gives them the choice of returning to the office or finding alternative employment. In the meantime it’s simply making rail travel unpleasant and putting off people who would otherwise be happy to use trains at the moment.
It doesn’t help that the work from home lot is heavily dominated by the Home Counties, which makes up quite a bit of Boris’s majority.
So instead of 'normal' people moaning about having to stand despite their last minute ticket costing £££, they'll be moaning instead about being unable to get a train booking for love nor money, and having to go by plane or coach instead.
If you invite punters to sample the alternative (like working from home), there's always the risk that they'll like it and never return.
That is one way for the railways to lose a lot of money. The high-speed lines in Europe have 'classic' backups. LNER's longer routes sometimes don't (especially London).
It’s more muddled thinking from the government. On the one hand it appears they are trying to appease the “terrified” lot by suppressing rail demand in order to create space for social distancing to be viable. On the other hand there’s then consternation with trains running around half-empty (the days of ghost trains such as we saw in April 2020 are now behind us).
They can’t have it both ways. Likewise some of the measures seem to be a half-arsed attempt at trying to get “terrified” people back, look at all the measures we’ve laid on to make it safe for you. They don’t quite seem to get that a lot of these “terrified” people will only come back when their employer points a proverbial gun at their head and gives them the choice of returning to the office or finding alternative employment. In the meantime it’s simply making rail travel unpleasant and putting off people who would otherwise be happy to use trains at the moment.
It doesn’t help that the work from home lot is heavily dominated by the Home Counties, which makes up quite a bit of Boris’s majority.
If the railways are going to insist on compulsory reservations, then they must also accept responsibilty for passengers who get stranded when their connecting service arrives late, either by delaying the departure or rebooking the pax on a following service. To just airily tell people to rebook with their own smartphone is just not good enough when they already have a contract for the whole journey, booked at their point of origin.
It's unpleasant, but if everyone decides they want to travel at the same time, who is the railway to say that they can't? By all means try and nudge the flexible to other services, but if people are willing to travel on an overcrowded train (by travelling at busiest times) then why should the railway turn them away?
Wow, this thread has sprung a lot of comments overnight...
I know a few other TOCs had compulsory reservation earlier in the pandemic. Are any other than LNER still doing it?
The only times I have had to stand on a train are a couple of times on busy trains out of Waterloo in the evening rush hour. And the occasional tube train until somebody kindly offers me a seat. The way most people travel in the UK having to define precisely when you are going to do so doesn't work, people want to use the trains when they need them. Reservation is a convenience but should not prevent someone else from travelling if they just happen to turn up when the train is pulling in.
Wow, this thread has sprung a lot of comments overnight...
I know a few other TOCs had compulsory reservation earlier in the pandemic. Are any other than LNER still doing it?
The only times I have had to stand on a train are a couple of times on busy trains out of Waterloo in the evening rush hour. And the occasional tube train until somebody kindly offers me a seat. The way most people travel in the UK having to define precisely when you are going to do so doesn't work, people want to use the trains when they need them. Reservation is a convenience but should not prevent someone else from travelling if they just happen to turn up when the train is pulling in.
Actually, there's a safety benefit of people not running for trains at the last second. And if you don't have to stand anyway, then a seat will be available for you to reserve.
You are viewing this from the railway’s point of view. I agree, for the railway, walk up tickets are not simple (everything from validity, routing and revenue share). But the problem is railway is not run for the benefit of the railway - its run for the benefit of the passengers. For passengers, walk up tickets are the ultimate in simplicity because they offer flexibility without any faff.
Absolutely nobody rocks up at Luton Airport, goes through security and heads for the Ryanair flight to somewhere in Belgium with their easyJet booking to Amsterdam. Nobody.
They absolutely do, that's why there's so many checks that people have the right ticket for the right aircraft when going through an airport. You can't even get airside without a valid ticket for a flight departing in the near future, then your full details are checked before you're allowed near the aircraft, and just in case you've managed to mess up the last bit too, there will be a check when you actually put a foot through the door of the plane. Finally there's a headcount done to make sure the right number of people have made it from the gate to the plane. And even then people still end up on the wrong planes.
That's a minimum of four checks done, yet people still get it wrong. The railway currently make none of those checks.
They absolutely do, that's why there's so many checks that people have the right ticket for the right aircraft when going through an airport. You can't even get airside without a valid ticket for a flight departing in the near future, then your full details are checked before you're allowed near the aircraft, and just in case you've managed to mess up the last bit too, there will be a check when you actually put a foot through the door of the plane. Finally there's a headcount done to make sure the right number of people have made it from the gate to the plane. And even then people still end up on the wrong planes.
That's a minimum of four checks done, yet people still get it wrong. The railway currently make none of those checks.
That's accidental - the "got on the wrong train" scenario. I meant that nobody (or almost nobody) would do that deliberately nor think it was OK to do it.
That's accidental - the "got on the wrong train" scenario. I meant that nobody (or almost nobody) would do that deliberately nor think it was OK to do it.
No, its surprisingly common, especially on frequent business routes like London - Edinburgh (oh, how ironic!) but not so common on leisure routes. In fact, within the airline industry they are known as "go-show" passengers - passengers with either a flexible or changeable ticket, who show up at the airport and are boarded onto an earlier flight if there are seats available. The only reasons why they have to be "re-booked" (even that is not always required as some tickets can be used as standby for the next flight) is that an aircraft cannot depart with more passengers than seats, cannot be crush loaded, and for safety and security reasons every passenger has to be identified and accounted for.
Those reasons do not apply to trains. The problem with turning parts of the railway into a reserved-seat-only operation is that it penalises the very customers who give the railway most money (i.e. the regular commuters who buy tickets / seasons week in, week out, month in, month out, year in, year out - and the business travellers who buy the most expensive flexible tickets - both groups which want flexibility to come and go as their schedule allows and don't want the faff of making short-notice reservations and potentially finding their preferred train cannot be reserved). While at the same time, such a policy also panders to the whims of the less frequent and lower-revenue passengers.
Ironically, the go-show concept allowed by flexible / changeable airline tickets enables a passenger to show up an airport and board if there is a seat available. The railway's "mandatory reservations" policy does not, on the face of it, even allow that - albeit that revenue staff may turn a blind-eye to the requirement if a train is lightly loaded.
Ironically, the go-show concept allowed by flexible / changeable airline tickets enables a passenger to show up an airport and board if there is a seat available. The railway's "mandatory reservations" policy does not, on the face of it, even allow that - albeit that revenue staff may turn a blind-eye to the requirement if a train is lightly loaded.
Erm, no it doesn't. In both cases you have to change your ticket first in exactly the same way. This may be free of charge for some ticket types on both.
SNCF for example has exchange machines for this exact purpose - insert your ticket, pick your new train, pay if required, it spits out a new one.
In the US there is a convention that you can just rock up to the gate - but even then the gate agent has to change your ticket, you don't just get on. That's a bit like if gateline staff were provided with mobile devices to do last minute changes.
Erm, no it doesn't. In both cases you have to change your ticket first in exactly the same way. This may be free of charge for some ticket types on both.
SNCF for example has exchange machines for this exact purpose - insert your ticket, pick your new train, pay if required, it spits out a new one.
In the US there is a convention that you can just rock up to the gate - but even then the gate agent has to change your ticket, you don't just get on. That's a bit like if gateline staff were provided with mobile devices to do last minute changes.
Then LNER need to place staff at each door of the train (because its pointless only at gate lines, especially for connecting passengers) with machines that can reserve a seat for a walk-up / flexible ticket in mere seconds. You know that's not going to happen though, is it. Sadly the mandatory reservations approach risks destroying one of the main USPs for railways - a true walk on service - especially for higher-revenue customers who demand flexibility and easy-of-use.
Then charge more for peak travel. It is absurd that travelling in the peak with an annual season works out cheaper per journey than ordinary off-peak returns.
Then charge more for peak travel. It is absurd that travelling in the peak with an annual season works out cheaper per journey than ordinary off-peak returns.
An Anytime Return from York to London is £273. How much more expensive would you like that to be? Bearing in mind that the only complaint bigger than overcrowding is the fact that fares are too expensive.
Then charge more for peak travel. It is absurd that travelling in the peak with an annual season works out cheaper per journey than ordinary off-peak returns.
Then LNER need to place staff at each door of the train (because its pointless only at gate lines, especially for connecting passengers) with machines that can reserve a seat for a walk-up / flexible ticket in mere seconds. You know that's not going to happen though, is it. Sadly the mandatory reservations approach risks destroying one of the main USPs for railways - a true walk on service - especially for higher-revenue customers who demand flexibility and easy-of-use.
Erm, yes it does - please don't presume to tell me how airlines operated as I've worked in the industry for more than 30 years. In most cases the process happens behind the scenes without the customer having to take the initiative - as far as the customer with a flexible ticket is concerned, its akin to a walk-on service if there are seats available. Everyone understands that they may not be able to travel if the flight is already full (because standing isn't allowed on aircraft) but that isn't the case with railways.
A mandatory-reservations railway puts significant constraints on business and commuter travel and reduces its appeal to those groups. And at the same time it panders to the whims of the Clampetts who have no long-term commitment to the railway and ultimately will give it far less revenue. Lets look at it another way - quite a few "proper" airlines will guarantee their most loyal and highest-revenue passengers a seat on a specific flight, even if it is full - they will do this even if it means off-loading a low-revenue customer. Maybe the railway should kick off advance ticket holders who have paid a low fare if there is short-notice demand from full open ticket holders? You and I know that's not going to happen, but it illustrates a point - mandatory reservations are an ill thought-out concept that reduces the attractiveness of the railway to just those customers whom it should be making every effort to attract back.
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