MML Electrification

[ChiefPlanner]

The money goes on the NR "Credit card" - i.e the RAB , or Regulated Asset Base (I.E they do not have to go behind the settee , or under the mattress)

Very good news all round - we have effectively a rolling programme of electrification in the UK.

I wonder if the existing 1978 Bedford - St Pancras OLE needs an upgrade - it is being used by about 3 times the traffic it was specified for ? Just a thought.

 

[snowball]

They (ORR) are saying that the money is there to be spent, so get on with it...

But they're also saying NR has to do everything for less money than before.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

But they're also saying NR has to do everything for less money than before.

I doubt there are any restrictions on the electrification planning team. Far from it...
Most of the costs will be with the contractors (BB, Amey etc) which is where the pressure comes in - they are desperate for the business.

 

[D365]

But they're also saying NR has to do everything for less money than before.

That would be operational costs, not capital expenditure. The Budget Review/statement wouldn't really make any sense if the government was saying, you have this amount of money for future infrastructure projects, but you have to do it for less than before.

Reduction of operating costs should be in some way aided by the reduction in diesel rolling stock operating across areas of the network, improved and more efficient infrastructure and so on..?

 

[edwin_m]

Reduction in diesels won't reduce NR's operating costs, as they would have to pay for more traction power and OLE maintenance, but these costs should be recouped from the TOCs. Hopefully this is allowed for when measuring the reduction!

The replacement of signal boxes and reduction in signalling staff is probably the largest potential operating cost saving. Some other new equipment may cost a bit less to maintain and there may still be savings to be had from automating the monitoring of the infrastructure.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Reduction in diesels won't reduce NR's operating costs, as they would have to pay for more traction power and OLE maintenance, but these costs should be recouped from the TOCs. Hopefully this is allowed for when measuring the reduction!

The replacement of signal boxes and reduction in signalling staff is probably the largest potential operating cost saving. Some other new equipment may cost a bit less to maintain and there may still be savings to be had from automating the monitoring of the infrastructure.

Ah but reduced track wear?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Electrifiction gives reduced operating costs to operators (and capacity / speed etc improvements)

The key fact is that this reduces "all industry costs" - it is not a case of NR clawing this back from the operators - an important factor in justifying the overall case of the railway and its social benefits.
Funding comes from 2 sources as Bowker used to say - the passenger and freight shipper , and the Government. Reducing the latter's input is critical.

 

[D365]

Ah but reduced track wear?

Reduction in income from track access charges. Although, this might be negated through bi-mode IEP? I'm not too sure how it will play out.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

That would be operational costs, not capital expenditure.

Not quite - NR is required to reduce unit costs for enhancements at the same time - hence modular S&C, modular signalling, MCB-OD crossings, blockades, OLE factory trains, high output track relaying plant, etc.

 

[edwin_m]

Ah but reduced track wear?

Only if the replacement electrics are a lot lighter, slower or have more track-friendly bogies. If a 319 replaces a 150 the track wear is likely to more than double as it's pretty much the same vehicle, mostly on the same bogies but in a 4-car formation and running up to 100mph. Anything replacing a Pacer will probably reduce track wear though.

 

[D365]

Only if the replacement electrics are a lot lighter, slower or have more track-friendly bogies. If a 319 replaces a 150 the track wear is likely to more than double as it's pretty much the same vehicle, mostly on the same bogies but in a 4-car formation and running up to 100mph. Anything replacing a Pacer will probably reduce track wear though.

But electrics are lighter because they don't have diesel engines (well, IEP has at least one per unit) - hence the lower track access charge, per vehicle. Not sure how much of an effect higher acceleration/speed has in all this.

Pacers aren't actually all that cheap in track access, as per vehicle they are shorter and cause more wear than a 'traditional' DMU.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

There was very little gauge corner cracking reported (post Hatfield - remember that dark era ?) , on routes where Pacers ran. DIY rail grinding ....

Track wear is a complex science , - but the real damage is done by some locomotives , overloaded freight trains (not deliberate , but some container operators "forgot" to declare the actual weight - and declared everything as 20T for a 20 ft box) , plus some lardy units.

I note with interest in my boring daily journey on the MML south of St Albans that I am now experiencing my 3d rail replacement campaign since 1989 - indicative of the tonnage going over it each day/ week / month / year.etc etc

The local branch line will probably last for 80 years having been relaid in the last decade. Ergo - track wear is not everything .....

 

[Philip Elliott]

But electrics are lighter because they don't have diesel engines (well, IEP has at least one per unit) - hence the lower track access charge, per vehicle. Not sure how much of an effect higher acceleration/speed has in all this.

Pacers aren't actually all that cheap in track access, as per vehicle they are shorter and cause more wear than a 'traditional' DMU.

EMUs aren't always that light - many units have motor vehicle of 50t +

The Brighton Belle was over 60t...

 

[38Cto15E]

On BBC Midlands news last night, the reporter stated that two bridges, one at Kibworth and one at Newton Harcourt would be re-built so that the trains could go faster.
I think I know where she was coming from.

 

[The Ham]

EMUs aren't always that light - many units have motor vehicle of 50t +

The Brighton Belle was over 60t...

As a comparrison the total wight of a class 350 is 175t (or 43.8t per carrage) compared with 90t for a 2 coach class 170 (or 45t per carriage) or evern a class 185 which comes in at just over 56t per coach. If you compare IC stock a class 390 is just under 52t per couch whilst a class 221 is close to 57t per coach. However the DMU then has the added weigth of the fuel that it needs.

There are of course lighter classes, but I was trying to compare trains which would be running comparable routes (First TransPennine Express and Virgin).

 

[edwin_m]

Trying to compare like with like in terms of bodyshells and bogies, the best bet is to use the units based on the common Mk3 bodyshell and series 3 bogies. I've taken the lightest of each type from railwaycentre.com:

A 2-car class 150/1 is 75 tonnes but for some reason a 150/2 is only 71 tonnes. Looking at class 150/0 it seems a cab end adds about a tonne compared with a non-cab end.

A 2-car class 456 is 72.5 tonnes so little different to the diesel.

4-car 455s are between 130 and 132 tonnes depending on batch, so quite a bit of saving from (presumably) having fewer cabs and only one of four cars motored.

4-car 321s are 138 tonnes, similar to 317s and lighter than 319s.

So for a 4-car unit AC traction seems to add around 7 tonnes compared with DC, and would be a very similar weight to a notional 4-car 150/2 with cabs at outer ends only.

 

[Trog]

There was very little gauge corner cracking reported (post Hatfield - remember that dark era ?) , on routes where Pacers ran. DIY rail grinding .....

I remember the then NR Professional head of track stating that if Virgin could be persuaded to scrap their Pendolino's and replace them with Duchess hauled Mk1's gauge corner cracking on the WCML would be cured overnight.

 

[chorleyjeff]

I remember the then NR Professional head of track stating that if Virgin could be persuaded to scrap their Pendolino's and replace them with Duchess hauled Mk1's gauge corner cracking on the WCML would be cured overnight.

I suppose Pendos limited to a routine 75mph top speed and 60mph average would have a similar effect.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

But the gauge corner cracking panic was before Pendolinos showed up.
The WCML fast lines were all 87/90/Mk3/110mph-operated then.

 

[76020]

I have done a search to see if I can find the answer but I can't, so could anyone answer any of the following questions?

1) When is it due to be completed?
2) Is it going to include Sheffield-Moorthorpe curve?
3) What is likely to happen to the 222's when the wires are up?

Apologies if these questions have been answered elsewhere.

This is on the Network rail website posted 5 Aug 2013:-

Network Rail plans to upgrade and electrify the Midland Main Line between Bedford and Sheffield, subject to approval from the Office of Rail Regulation in October 2013. This investment would see more seats, quicker journeys and cleaner and quieter trains. Current plans are to electrify to Corby by 2017, to Leicester, Derby and Nottingham in 2019 and to Sheffield in 2020

 

[joeykins82]

Ooh that's interesting, first time I've seen timescales mentioned. I assume this means that Corby will probably switch to being operated by the Thameslink franchise holder and be run with TL stock?

 

[YorkshireBear]

This is on the Network rail website posted 5 Aug 2013:-

Network Rail plans to upgrade and electrify the Midland Main Line between Bedford and Sheffield, subject to approval from the Office of Rail Regulation in October 2013. This investment would see more seats, quicker journeys and cleaner and quieter trains. Current plans are to electrify to Corby by 2017, to Leicester, Derby and Nottingham in 2019 and to Sheffield in 2020

So Sheffield to Moorthorpe and Doncaster increasingly looking like CP6.

 

[cle]

Makes sense really - and a better use of platforms at St Pancras.

Perhaps they'll devise a faster stopping pattern for Corby trains. Maybe 2tph to Kettering/Corby, skipping Harpenden and the stations between Luton and Bedford.

 

[joeykins82]

Yeah, possibly adding West Hampstead as a stop to the 4tph that currently run fast between St Albans and St Pancras to help ease some of the pressure on KXStP underground.

 

[tbtc]

Yeah, possibly adding West Hampstead as a stop to the 4tph that currently run fast between St Albans and St Pancras to help ease some of the pressure on KXStP underground.

It surprises me that West Hampstead doesn't get a better service - it's a prime location (and for connections) - look at how many Cambridge/ Peterborough trains use Finsbury Park as a comparison.

 

[Trog]

I suppose Pendos limited to a routine 75mph top speed and 60mph average would have a similar effect.

No its not so much the pure speed but the way the older stock hunted and shuffled its wheels down the rails. This wore away the rail and any small new surface cracks before they got a chance to grow.

 

[Bald Rick]

Ooh that's interesting, first time I've seen timescales mentioned. I assume this means that Corby will probably switch to being operated by the Thameslink franchise holder and be run with TL stock?

Definitely not. Although EMUs on the cards, they won't be TL stock and won't be going south of St Pancras.

 

[Drsatan]

When Leicester to Nottingham is electrified, can anyone predict what will happen to the HSTs used on St Pancras - Nottingham services? Given they'll be over 40 years old, and due a life-extension program, I predict they'll be scrapped.

On the other hand, St Pancras to Sheffield seems like suitable territory for the displaced class 91s.

 

[anthony263]

When Leicester to Nottingham is electrified, can anyone predict what will happen to the HSTs used on St Pancras - Nottingham services? Given they'll be over 40 years old, and due a life-extension program, I predict they'll be scrapped.

On the other hand, St Pancras to Sheffield seems like suitable territory for the displaced class 91s.

It think would not be unlikely for the DFT to order additional iep's to operate the midland mainline when it is electrified.

That said Alstom could offer a high speed train similar to the class 390's

 

[brianthegiant]

I wonder how many over-bridges will need to be rebuilt north of Leicester to allow adequate clearance? (I know 3 are in planning to be rebuilt in Northamptonshire).

overbridge at platforms 1&2 of Loughborough station looks tight for space even if overhead rail is used.