MML Electrification

[YorkshireBear]

I wonder how many over-bridges will need to be rebuilt north of Leicester to allow adequate clearance? (I know 3 are in planning to be rebuilt in Northamptonshire).

overbridge at platforms 1&2 of Loughborough station looks tight for space even if overhead rail is used.

I think it was mostly built be the Midland, and they didn't like to leave a lot of room at over-bridges so I imagine it may be a lot!

 

[Mugby]

overbridge at platforms 1&2 of Loughborough station looks tight for space even if overhead rail is used.

Ha! Just when they've spent all that money extending Loughborough platforms northwards to accommodate full length trains, because they wouldn't allow doors to be opened south of the overbridge.

The overbridge looks like it will have to be rebuilt anyway!

 

[edwin_m]

Ha! Just when they've spent all that money extending Loughborough platforms northwards to accommodate full length trains, because they wouldn't allow doors to be opened south of the overbridge.

The overbridge looks like it will have to be rebuilt anyway!

Just what I was thinking.

I would expect most of the traditional arch bridges to need either rebuilding or significant track lowering, especially as I assume there is also gauge enhancement for the Electric Spine and the extra clearance is mostly needed at the top corners.

I believe part of the current Nottingham work is to lower the track and the platforms to get clearances under the station bridge.

 

[Ploughman]

If the work I was involved with on the Leeds North West Electrification is anything to go by then as that was a continuation of the Midland Railway.
Options should include Track Lowering, Bridge Jacking, Rebuild or abandon and demolish.

The biggest constraint we found was during Track Lowerings when the design require us to go down into the Penning layer (Like a cobbled road laid as a formation layer usually of stone blocks about 300mm deep).
Usually this was meant to be approx 50mm down into the layer, but a degree of common sense is needed because wherever the penning layer was removed or breached then soft spots or wet beds have appeared since, no matter what formation treatment was installed.
Another point on lowerings is that when you have a number of successive bridges within a hundred yards or so of each other then make the lowering continuous. Frizinghall between Bradford FSQ and Shipley has 4 bridges in a row we were obliged to ramp down and then up under each. At the end of the job extending about 3/4 mile 1 panel of track had not been removed at some point or other, every other panel had come out.
Result was a roller coaster ride, blame the design office we just put it as they wanted it..

 

[RichmondCommu]

I wonder how many over-bridges will need to be rebuilt north of Leicester to allow adequate clearance? (I know 3 are in planning to be rebuilt in Northamptonshire).

overbridge at platforms 1&2 of Loughborough station looks tight for space even if overhead rail is used.

Belper could prove to be very interesting as there are a lot of over-bridges in that little town! With the station being so close to them it’s hard to see how the track could be lowered without causing problems with the platform levels.

 

[Martin222002]

Belper could prove to be very interesting as there are a lot of over-bridges in that little town! With the station being so close to them it’s hard to see how the track could be lowered without causing problems with the platform levels.

Earlier this year during a line closer between Chesterfield and Derby for replacing the old tack and for improvements as part of the MML line speed upgrade (of which we should see the first set of benefits from December) they track level was lowered for electrification at the same time, including though the Belper area. Network Rail appears to be combining the track lowering with other projects like the MML line speed upgrades and as said earlier the Nottingham area resignalling.

 

[edwin_m]

Earlier this year during a line closer between Chesterfield and Derby for replacing the old tack and for improvements as part of the MML line speed upgrade (of which we should see the first set of benefits from December) they track level was lowered for electrification at the same time, including though the Belper area. Network Rail appears to be combining the track lowering with other projects like the MML line speed upgrades and as said earlier the Nottingham area resignalling.

Sounds like good planning to me. Has the platform at Belper also been lowered, or perhaps it was a bit low before and is now the right height?

 

[brianthegiant]

Ha! Just when they've spent all that money extending Loughborough platforms northwards to accommodate full length trains, because they wouldn't allow doors to be opened south of the overbridge.

The overbridge looks like it will have to be rebuilt anyway!

Hmm, it does seem that way... though the bridge rebuilding would only have gained 2 or 3 car lengths onto the previously 5 car platform, where 1&2 are now 10 cars long. Also the lengthening extended platform 3 significantly to allow reasonable dwell times when 222s occasionally run on the slows.

But if they rebuild the bridge the platforms could be 12 cars long... not much call for that for the forseeable future.

 

[Mugby]

Belper could prove to be very interesting as there are a lot of over-bridges in that little town! With the station being so close to them it’s hard to see how the track could be lowered without causing problems with the platform levels.

The bridges at Belper are known to the local P/Way staff as 'The Clusters'

 

[edwin_m]

I imagine the platforms at Loughborough will stay as they now are even in the likely event that the bridge is rebuilt. As Brian suggests there isn't any reason to lengthen them (with the limits imposed by St Pancras and HS2 probably if anything reducing train lengths through Loughborough). If that ever became necessary they could probably realign the slow tracks and extend further north.

Reducing the span of the new bridge by not leaving room for platforms also reduces its cost, particularly if it avoids interfering with the slow line span which is a much newer beam structure and probably already has electrification clearances.

 

[RichmondCommu]

The bridges at Belper are known to the local P/Way staff as 'The Clusters'

Sorry if I sound a bit thick but why are they called that?

 

[Mugby]

Sorry if I sound a bit thick but why are they called that?

I don't really know, could be because of the number in a short distance (seven, I think)

Or it could be the way they tie the retaining walls together forming a cluster around the track.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I don't really know, could be because of the number in a short distance (seven, I think)

Or it could be the way they tie the retaining walls together forming a cluster around the track.

Either way, as you say there are a lot of them! Including three that carry cobbled streets which would have made raising the height of bridges time comsuming and expensive!

 

[Ships]

There was very little gauge corner cracking reported (post Hatfield - remember that dark era ?) , on routes where Pacers ran. DIY rail grinding ....

Track wear is a complex science , - but the real damage is done by some locomotives , overloaded freight trains (not deliberate , but some container operators "forgot" to declare the actual weight - and declared everything as 20T for a 20 ft box) , plus some lardy units.

I note with interest in my boring daily journey on the MML south of St Albans that I am now experiencing my 3d rail replacement campaign since 1989 - indicative of the tonnage going over it each day/ week / month / year.etc etc

The local branch line will probably last for 80 years having been relaid in the last decade. Ergo - track wear is not everything .....

This is very very true! It's also where track-ex becomes a very useful modelling tool as assumptions in the area aren't always cut and dried!

 

[Wyvern]

Regarding Belper the cutting is a Grade 2 listed structure (As are I think Milford and Clay Cross tunnels)

Are you sure the track has been lowered? I'll have to have a closer look but its doesnt seem any different and the step down to the platform seems the same. It also gives a lot of trouble with drainage.

The Clusters is actually the name of a group of the Strutt houses adjacent to the cutting.

To add to the problems the whole Derwent Valley from Derby to Cromford is a World Heritage Area (I had to get planning permission to get my roof and chimney rebuilt)

I wonder if there will be trouble with Toadmoor Tunnel. It is an elliptical bore with quite limited clearance because it passes through quite difficult ground.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toadmoor_Tunnel


POSTSCRIPT: Apparently Ambergate Junction is going to be redesigned, presumably to speed it up, in which case they may do away with the tunnel.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Regarding Belper the cutting is a Grade 2 listed structure (As are I think Milford and Clay Cross tunnels)

Are you sure the track has been lowered? I'll have to have a closer look but its doesnt seem any different and the step down to the platform seems the same. It also gives a lot of trouble with drainage.

The Clusters is actually the name of a group of the Strutt houses adjacent to the cutting.

To add to the problems the whole Derwent Valley from Derby to Cromford is a World Heritage Area (I had to get planning permission to get my roof and chimney rebuilt)

I wonder if there will be trouble with Toadmoor Tunnel. It is an elliptical bore with quite limited clearance because it passes through quite difficult ground.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toadmoor_Tunnel


POSTSCRIPT: Apparently Ambergate Junction is going to be redesigned, presumably to speed it up, in which case they may do away with the tunnel.

I'm assuming that there are no properties above the tunnel??

 

[AndyLandy]

OK, I'm no expert on the MML, so could someone tell me:

1. What Intercity routes are served from St. Pancras (and with what stock)
2. Which routes will be electrified.

I'm pretty au-fait with things like the SWML and WCML, but I've never really had much to do with the MML.


Thanks!

 

[Wyvern]

I'm assuming that there are no properties above the tunnel??

There's all sorts round there. I saw the words in a Network Rail planning document but I cant work out what they want to do or how they are going to do it. Perhaps all it is, is that they are going fit pointwork capable of a higher speed, but there's still quite a curve.

 

[edwin_m]

OK, I'm no expert on the MML, so could someone tell me:

1. What Intercity routes are served from St. Pancras (and with what stock)
2. Which routes will be electrified.

I'm pretty au-fait with things like the SWML and WCML, but I've never really had much to do with the MML.


Thanks!

EMT services from St Pancras run to Sheffield via Derby, and to Nottingham and Corby using HSTs or class 222 Meridians. All of these will be electrified (the first 50 miles to Bedford is electrified already). Some St Pancras services also run to Leeds and there are a couple of workings from Corby to Derby via Melton, plus a summer Saturday trip to Scarborough, but these are essentially about getting the stock to and from depot and on current plans will not be electrified. In fact the committed electrification ends at Sheffield but there is likely to be an infill scheme at some stage to link this to Doncaster and/or Leeds.

 

[Philip Elliott]

There also morning southbound and evening northbound trains via the Erewash Valley...

 

[tbtc]

OK, I'm no expert on the MML, so could someone tell me:

1. What Intercity routes are served from St. Pancras (and with what stock)
2. Which routes will be electrified.

I'm pretty au-fait with things like the SWML and WCML, but I've never really had much to do with the MML.


Thanks!

EMT services from St Pancras run to Sheffield via Derby, and to Nottingham and Corby using HSTs or class 222 Meridians. All of these will be electrified (the first 50 miles to Bedford is electrified already). Some St Pancras services also run to Leeds and there are a couple of workings from Corby to Derby via Melton, plus a summer Saturday trip to Scarborough, but these are essentially about getting the stock to and from depot and on current plans will not be electrified. In fact the committed electrification ends at Sheffield but there is likely to be an infill scheme at some stage to link this to Doncaster and/or Leeds.

Yup - the basic pattern at the moment is

2x London - Leicester - Derby - Sheffield
2x London - Leicester - Nottingham
1x London - Corby

The additional services (which won't run under the CP5 wires) are:

• The handful of morning trains from Leeds via Sheffield - Nottingham - Leicester - London (and evening return) that are mainly about using Neville Hill based HSTs for peak capacity on Nottingham - London services - I'd expect these to become just Nottingham - London services post-electrification - but then I'd put money on Sheffield - Leeds being wired in CP6
• The token weekend service from the East Midlands to York (Scarborough in the summer) - I've suggested in the past that if this is important enough to keep then this could be a hired XC 170 (since their Leicester route uses fewer Turbostars at the weekend)
• The one a day north of Corby (serving Melton).

So, the CP5 wires will cover the vast majority of services - there are no diversionary lines being wired (like the "Erewash" line from Nottingham to Chesterfield via Alfreton or the "Old Road" from Chesterfield to Sheffield via Woodhouse - and currently no commitment to wire the gaps north of Sheffield (to Moorthorpe/ Doncaster) or the branches (Belper to Matlock), but once the main line is wired to Sheffield the business case for filling in the gaps should improve.

 

[Wyvern]

Ive been wading through Network Rail documents to find out how the line will be wired to Sheffield but cant find anything. The Erewash Valley is however going to be opened up to W10 gauge at some time soon as part of a route from Water Orton to Doncaster.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I really would bet good money on the infill to Nottingham and Totonyard to get done - and announced before the next election!

 

[edwin_m]

I really would bet good money on the infill to Nottingham and Totonyard to get done - and announced before the next election!

It's probably essential if HS2 is built, to provide good access from the Toton station. It would also be a better route for freight using the Electric Spine than going via Derby, but that would probably have to be in conjunction with some infill northwards from Sheffield as with no intermodal terminals in Sheffield itself there is probably no electric freight without this infill.

 

[Darren R]

So, the CP5 wires will cover the vast majority of services - there are no diversionary lines being wired (like the "Erewash" line from Nottingham to Chesterfield via Alfreton or the "Old Road" from Chesterfield to Sheffield via Woodhouse - and currently no commitment to wire the gaps north of Sheffield (to Moorthorpe/ Doncaster) or the branches (Belper to Matlock), but once the main line is wired to Sheffield the business case for filling in the gaps should improve.

Surely the 'Old Road' via Barrow Hill is an integral part of the MML though? Not only does most of the freight to/from the south run that way, but also quite a few passenger services too (not to mention ECS.) Seems to me something of a false economy not to do it at the same time - especially given the volume of freight and the electrification of the central spine down to Southampton.

 

[Wyvern]

Electrifying the section between Trent and Trowell Junction is certainly an intention.

 

[Chris125]

Surely the 'Old Road' via Barrow Hill is an integral part of the MML though? Not only does most of the freight to/from the south run that way, but also quite a few passenger services too (not to mention ECS.) Seems to me something of a false economy not to do it at the same time - especially given the volume of freight and the electrification of the central spine down to Southampton.

There's no point adding extra mileage to an electrification scheme which already looks likely to spill over into the next control period - I see no reason to think the 'old road' along with other obvious infills won't be in the industry's plans for CP6.

Chris

 

[DimTim]

There are many aspects of this scheme that will only become clearer over time. It is already envisaged that wires will not reach Sheffield until 2020 - CP6.
If the electric spine is going to provide sufficient capacity for freight the four tracks north of Bedford that were present in the 60's will possibly require re-instating. The double track section south of Leicester to Kettering together with traffic going east west through Wigston Junction will be a bottleneck in time.
The diversion routes Corby to Syston, Trent to Clay Cross & the old road Chesterfield to Rotherham (with connection to Sheffield via Woodhouse) will hopefully be announced in due course
The Electric Spine as it stands is a dead end! - yes the next stage hopefully is to electrify in CP6 to Doncaster/Moorthorpe - the teams are likely to be in this area to continue this work. The Tram Train project will not interfere intially if the Rotherham Masborough route only is electrified, this being the intercity route.
The other anomoly is why a IEP Depot is being built in Doncaster - at present this is 30 miles at least (Leeds) from journeys end on the East Coast route so a lot of ecs mileage must be envisaged unless this is then to be a base to provide IEP stock for Sheffield services?

Time will tell - the volume of work announced already could not be completed in CP5 so a rolling scheme no doubt will emerge.

 

[IanXC]

The other anomoly is why a IEP Depot is being built in Doncaster - at present this is 30 miles at least (Leeds) from journeys end on the East Coast route so a lot of ecs mileage must be envisaged unless this is then to be a base to provide IEP stock for Sheffield services?

My understanding is that Doncaster was chosen as a location within sensible ECS of principally York and Leeds, but also of other East Coast origins such as Hull, Lincoln, Harrogate and Skipton (and potentially Cleethorpes and Scarborough).

 

[Qwerty133]

[*]The token weekend service from the East Midlands to York (Scarborough in the summer) - I've suggested in the past that if this is important enough to keep then this could be a hired XC 170 (since their Leicester route uses fewer Turbostars at the weekend)

When I went on the service it was full all the way from leicester so a 2 car 170 will be not much use as people will be left behind.
Also although the leicester route currently requires less turbostars on Sundays (for the majority of the day on Saturdays the service is the same), services are currently overcrowded, especially the first service from leicester to Birmingham and the line desperately needs an earlier service on a Sunday morning (the line is open, so as far as I can see this is due to no one wanting to pay!)